Combat logs 1.2. Parsable outside of game.

[Ebbikenezer]

<snip>

 

If I was applying to that guild, I would edit my parse to make me look better. Nobody can verify that the numbers I submit aren't correct.

 

LIVE logs. LIVE parsing.

 

What decent guild doesn't give someone a trial run before bringing them to the show?

 

Edit all you like, live is live, especially when run through a 3rd party site with parsing tools and options to discern what that person is doing right/wrong.

 

At the end of the day: it's an OPTION to keep your info private or make it available, just like it's an OPTION to join that type of guild and run with them in the first place.

 

I'm under the assumption you haven't played many MMOs if you think this is far fetched.

 

Edit before someone says it: Live would be done, usually via a javascript that would read the data as it is being written to your HDD and then upload it while/just after it is written to the HDD... direct to a website which would auto parse it. With logins and Guild accounts and such it could be pretty easy to set it up for people to run it while in an Ops group, and the Ops Lead could check it on demand with little delay. I did this all the time running the guild and Raid Leading in WoW, I just needed to run the Live parsing myself, whereas here each raider would need to do it, but overall no big deal.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Ebbikenezer

[SirRobin]

Meh... Whatever the details it sounds like TOR is closer to actual mod support. Which I take as a good thing.

[Druc]

The day this goes to live there will be a 3rd party app that displays the info in raid chat. The leaders that require it will make it manditory. It isn't a big deal.

[Febibi]

Again they devs got something right. I just gained a little ( a little ) more respect for them.

 

There will be combat logs with everything your toon does. These logs can be downloaded to disk. Guilds or who ever from there can get the information the need.

 

This goes a long way for uniqueness of your character. BioWare's philosophy is that you should have some degree of privacy for your toon. Not everyone wants or need to run the "optimal spec" in order to do lower tier flash points and operations.

 

For those high end world first types (used to be me) they will have all the tools the need to further their progression.

 

This means external apps can be used in window mode finally so that we have our window open and then a scrolling combat log....faster processers only (still a delay).

[XavyerDeVir]

I really dont understand why devs don't make in-game recount that will make both groups happy. All they have to do is to restrict access to your character logs to ppl in your friend list. That's all. If you pug how well do you perform is non of thier buisnes. If you have an ops night just add your RL in frieds list and he can see how well are you performing. And if you like to show off just turn off all restrictions in preferences so all can see your logs. Everyone happy. Edited March 5, 2012 by XavyerDeVir

[Grimgold]

...and by virtue of you assuming that I'm a 'bad', your argument is completely invalidated.

 

Why is someone a 'bad' if they don't agree with something?

 

Not really, hes simply trying to come up with a motive as to why you don't want people to see what your damage is, and that one is close at hand. You could be awesome at DPS and hate meters because all of the adulation from your peers is embarrassing, somehow though I doubt that's the case.

 

Whatever your motivations and whether or not he was accurate in judging them, it doesn't change the validity of his other statements. This isn't a mathematical proof where one error spoils the whole thing, this is a debate and you have to rebut the point you want to call invalid, using facts and not straw men.

[Knewt]

Let me put it this way:

 

You don't have the right to see everything from my character. If I choose to share my personal log with you, I will, but you don't have the right to assume that you should see it.

I'll put it this way, if I am tanking and you are healing, I'm already seeing everything you do to me. You don't decide if I see the green text on my screen. I just want it in a more presentable fashion so I can actually analyze it and figure out if I screwed up, the healer screwed up or we were just under geared.

 

Again, this will be an external tool. How will an external combat parsing tool negatively impact your game play?

[JediElf]

Not really, hes simply trying to come up with a motive as to why you don't want people to see what your damage is, and that one is close at hand. You could be awesome at DPS and hate meters because all of the adulation from your peers is embarrassing, somehow though I doubt that's the case.

 

Whatever your motivations and whether or not he was accurate in judging them, it doesn't change the validity of his other statements. This isn't a mathematical proof where one error spoils the whole thing, this is a debate and you have to rebut the point you want to call invalid, using facts and not straw men.

 

I did edit out that statement, it was made with to much emotion, and I realized how wrong it sounded...

 

However I still stand by my experiences in other MMOs, and that is, that no one ever uses DPS meters for teaching, or for helping. The one odd guild might use them, but they are very rare and very hard to find.

 

It's never used, as any kind of 'tool' anymore, it's a '"Let's kick the bad" meter, it's a "Let's rage at this new player" meter, it a meter to validate peoples egos.

 

That's all it is now.

 

However combat Parsers are good, really good, and are usually used by high end guilds who can read and interpret the information. It's a 'smart' tool, unlike say Recount.

Edited March 5, 2012 by JediElf

[Calimwulf]

In Story mode, no one is going to care what your parses are, but if you raid, then at the very least you should care what your parses are.

 

Now, leaving that aside. The only way to tell what rotations are the most efficient are through combat logs, especially when combining rotations with stats/bonuses.

 

The other thing is that the only way to tell where the math bugs are underneath the covers is with parses. I haven't played a game yet where a Dev didn't add/multiply/divide/subtract too much or too little.

 

This has nothing to do with a holy war on 'casuals' and 'not'. It has everyting to do with the fact that combat logs will benefit absolutely everyone, regardless if you use the data yourself or not.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Calimwulf

[Knewt]

LIVE logs. LIVE parsing.

 

What decent guild doesn't give someone a trial run before bringing them to the show?

 

Edit all you like, live is live, especially when run through a 3rd party site with parsing tools and options to discern what that person is doing right/wrong.

 

At the end of the day: it's an OPTION to keep your info private or make it available, just like it's an OPTION to join that type of guild and run with them in the first place.

 

I'm under the assumption you haven't played many MMOs if you think this is far fetched.

 

Edit before someone says it: Live would be done, usually via a javascript that would read the data as it is being written to your HDD and then upload it while/just after it is written to the HDD... direct to a website which would auto parse it. With logins and Guild accounts and such it could be pretty easy to set it up for people to run it while in an Ops group, and the Ops Lead could check it on demand with little delay. I did this all the time running the guild and Raid Leading in WoW, I just needed to run the Live parsing myself, whereas here each raider would need to do it, but overall no big deal.

That is a really big assumption you're making. I doubt Bioware will let you read the log live. Heck, I'll wager it needs to be converted from a proprietary format before it becomes text. So far, Bioware doesn't have a good track record for making things easy.

 

The day this goes to live there will be a 3rd party app that displays the info in raid chat. The leaders that require it will make it manditory. It isn't a big deal.

And everyone using the third party tool will be in violation of the TOS and could have their accounts closed for botting.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Knewt

[MasterKayote]

The day this goes to live there will be a 3rd party app that displays the info in raid chat. The leaders that require it will make it manditory. It isn't a big deal.

 

lol, this! Good point. No need to QQ about it. Raiders get their wish ... no rtards causing trouble in pugs. Win-Win. You dont like the guild that requires this tool, dont join or dont raid. Pretty simple IMO.

[kjryx]

I may be a bit of an old fogey about this...but I don't miss only worrying about logs and parses after the raid is completed and figuring out what we can do better. It worked great in EQ, and even in other MMO's prior to everything being in an add-on.

 

I also don't miss socially maladjusted folks spamming raid or group chat every time their number was a tiny bit higher than somebody elses. Or ignoring the fact that everybody else was playing to beat the encounter while they were all about big numbers.

 

Parsable logs outside of the client will help raid leaders do what they need to do, while eliminating some of the crappy behavior that happens when it's immediately available. Win-win.

 

For those that never played games where this was the norm, raid leaders and trusted group members would supply the logs that get parsed. There was no danger of someone beefing up their numbers outside of the game, because it wasn't their copy of the log that was looked at. There was also no danger of some nuance of an add-on making your numbers come out abnormally high or low.

[Blotter]

ZOMG!!!! They're giving us what we asked for but it's not good enough!!! Have you seen inside this horse's mouth yet!??!?!?!?

[Grimgold]

I did edit out that statement, it was made with to much emotion, and I realized how wrong it sounded...

 

However I still stand by my experiences in other MMOs, and that is, that no one ever uses DPS meters for teaching, or for helping. The one odd guild might use them, but they are very rare and very hard to find.

 

It's never used, as any kind of 'tool' anymore, it's a '"Let's kick the bad" meter, it's a "Let's rage at this new player" meter, it a meter to validate peoples egos.

 

That's all it is now.

 

Saw that after I posted, however does it have to be a teaching tool to be useful? The negative aspects are as important, I've never seen anyone get better at something until they knew there was a problem with the way they were doing it.

 

I've always known that being part of a group/raid isn't a right. I group to have fun and hang out, however in a group I'm expected to perform my job at a minimum level of competency, if I don't I'm negatively effecting other peoples fun. You wouldn't hesitate to kick the guy who stood in the fire, or the under geared tank who makes healing a nightmare, why would you hesitate to kick the guy who is making your groups life difficult by not bringing enough DPS?

 

For instance the council fight in EV, if you have a dps that can't kill a marauder in the time frame you have a problem where he is impeding the rest of the raid, and should be removed and replaced in order to continue. It's the same thing when you hit an enrage timer, albeit with significantly less clarity in the current implementation.

 

That's why meter haters are selfish in the extreme, they are not willing to be accountable to their group mates for their performance, group mates who are dependent on their performance.

[corelina]

Heaven forbid we ask for a common place tool that every other mmo has to assist us with bettering our other members.

 

I don't know about you but I don't like trying to see how someone performs while I am blindfolded. Combat logs are a necissity. There are so many more good reasons to include it over the single reason not to include it: protecting bad players from getting criticized.

 

Seriously, one of the worst kinds of people to work with in my day to day life at my job are the people that cannot and will not take criticism if they do something wrong and refuse to improve.

 

Do you like dealing with these kinds of people? Having no combat log caters to this group of players and HINDERS the rest. Real smart bioware, real smart.

 

 

What if you are bad and can't improve but don't want anyone to know?

[JediElf]

I may be a bit of an old fogey about this...but I don't miss only worrying about logs and parses after the raid is completed and figuring out what we can do better. It worked great in EQ, and even in other MMO's prior to everything being in an add-on.

 

I also don't miss socially maladjusted folks spamming raid or group chat every time their number was a tiny bit higher than somebody elses. Or ignoring the fact that everybody else was playing to beat the encounter while they were all about big numbers.

 

Parsable logs outside of the client will help raid leaders do what they need to do, while eliminating some of the crappy behavior that happens when it's immediately available. Win-win.

 

For those that never played games where this was the norm, raid leaders and trusted group members would supply the logs that get parsed. There was no danger of someone beefing up their numbers outside of the game, because it wasn't their copy of the log that was looked at. There was also no danger of some nuance of an add-on making your numbers come out abnormally high or low.

 

Naw I'm an old fogey as well....I hear ya loud and clear.

 

That's why meter haters are selfish in the extreme, they are not willing to be accountable to their group mates for their performance, group mates who are dependent on their performance.

 

Ya know what? yes what you said is true, but only true for a high end raid guild on Nightmare difficulty. It's not true for a random pug, playing a Story Mode Flashpoint.

 

Please try to understand that some of us have been around long enough to know that the negatives, far far, outweigh the positives with an addon like Recount. Like I keep saying it is no longer used as any kind of teaching too at all. Heck I remember when it was a new addon, I remember when it began. I was there.

 

...and let me clarify that I'm, in no way, against Parsers. To me Parsers > Recount because it's a smarter tool, and actually takes some skill, to use in an effective means.

Edited March 5, 2012 by JediElf

[chton]

It is for guilds, not to harass people in pugs.

 

Duh but that's what some people want, they don't want a tool they want bragging rights.

[Datku]

./10chars Edited March 5, 2012 by Datku

[Raeln]

Personal, downloadable logs are a half-baked, half-assed way to implement combat logs. If Bioware is going to implement combat logs that can be saved for offline parsing, they need to go all the way and let me see everything from everyone.

 

A guild shouldn't have any problem recruiting some scripter to build them a tool to let all the members upload their personal logs to be compiled and parsed together.

 

... I imagine someone can make money from that idea.

[Ebbikenezer]

That is a really big assumption you're making. I doubt Bioware will let you read the log live. Heck, I'll wager it needs to be converted from a proprietary format before it becomes text. So far, Bioware doesn't have a good track record for making things easy.

 

 

And everyone using the third party tool will be in violation of the TOS and could have their accounts closed for botting.

 

Bioware's "track record" is horrible/just fine depending on who you are, your personal taste, what bothers you, your experience with their games and how long you have enjoyed/hated their products.

 

So, your "track record" with them isn't going to be the same as mine any way you slice it.

 

Also, it's pretty much like you're going to argue it into the ground, so at the end of the day: Don't use it, don't play the game, I couldn't care less, kudos to them for at least getting some semblance of a log into the game because so many people were whining incessantly about it.

[Raeln]

I completely disagree.

 

We use DPS meters constantly among classes in Rift for this very thing.

 

I've spent hours with new 50 warriors and Rogues at the practice dummies with us talking over their spec, their rotation, what consumables they are using.

 

I've helped people increase their DPS 50% in one afternoon.

 

My guild leader has pulled me up in channel and said our new guy is off on dps from where he should be with his gear, would you mind spending some time at the practice range with him and help him figure some things out?

 

It creates a sense of mentoring between veterans and new guys, and it creates a sense of cooperation between veterans.

 

Hours?

 

Seriously now. While I have no doubt you have stood at a training dummy and helped people, please don't try to make it out to be an Olympic-level event.

[Vydor_HC]

Yup, I like the solution they are offering. This discussion has been hashed to death on the boards and from their verbiage in the panel it's easy to see that they are fully aware of the pros and cons of the topic, and I feel they have struck a good compromise.

[Raeln]

I believe in doing things the right way. If you are going to implement a new feature to meet the demands of high end guilds that want numbers, then implement the tool the right way. Forcing a raid leader to receive and assemble 8 or 16 individual combat logs is a bad implementation.

 

I seriously doubt anyone will be kicked from a FP pug because someone uploaded a combat log to an external program.

 

If you are going to the effort of creating a combat log that can be parsed, then do it the right way and simplify things for the raids who want to assemble the data.

 

Your "right way" is completely opinion.

 

Keeping the log personal is a good move in my opinion. In a guild setting, uploading a log is not a difficult thing to do. I think it's a good mechanic in allowing the community to police themselves.

 

If I was applying to that guild, I would edit my parse to make me look better. Nobody can verify that the numbers I submit aren't correct.

 

If it was my guild and I was running with you, a few runs and I'd know you weren't pulling your weight.

[Kesherao]

Aaaaaand another bad decision.

 

Bioware dude at the top deciding for everyone or deciding how the decisions are taken, listen to me, because I am smarter than you: why do you think WoW had such a huge success in WotLK? Do you think it was the Achievements, the lfg, the add-ons, dps meters? Well, you're trying to prove, by removing all of these from your game, that the answer is...

 

"It's the elves. WoW had such a great success, because it has elves and we don't! Goddam elves!"

 

Well guess what, Bioware dude, LotRO, Aion and some others had some sort of elves, yet they still failed. Might it be, my dear Bioware dude, that it was those achievements, lfg CROSS-SERVER (nub!), add-ons and dps-meters that were missing or being introduced too late, when everyone had figured that the dude on top of their game was just slow and always gonna be two steps behind Blizzard, that those were afterall the cause of their failure?

 

Get closer Bioware dude, I want to whisper in your year till it gets moist in there... "Freeeee Toooo Plaaaaay".

 

SERVAHMERGE!

 

/edit and it's not like you're trying to reinvent the wheel... no dude, you're like those guys trying to reinvent the airplanes or those that were still inventing them after the Wrigths. Look, mine has a propeller on top of my helmet! And I can fly for 10 seconds before going freeeeeeh toooooh playyyyyh.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Kesherao

[Raeln]

I really dont understand why devs don't make in-game recount that will make both groups happy. All they have to do is to restrict access to your character logs to ppl in your friend list. That's all. If you pug how well do you perform is non of thier buisnes. If you have an ops night just add your RL in frieds list and he can see how well are you performing. And if you like to show off just turn off all restrictions in preferences so all can see your logs. Everyone happy.

 

Some of the people I know that have the worst tunnel vision in WoW with Recount are on my friends list. Sounds bad, I know. They are really great people outside of the game but I kid you not - they get tunnel vision so bad in WoW while trying to be #1 on that stupid meter that they are completely unaware that there is fire under their feet.