Expertise - As seen from both sides of the fence. It is broken.

[savionen]

I agree. I hit 50 mid-January as well, back when people weren't as geared. Coming from other games with stats similar to Expertise, it seemed like "It's fine, L2P." You always got trashed as a fresh 50, but I never experienced such a huge damage drop.

 

On my second character, I was rocking warzones 10-49, commonly getting 275-300k damage, I figured it'd be no big deal. I'm honestly not even sure if Expertise works as it says. It's supposed to only be 10-12% depending on gear. But my experience as a "Fresh 50" had my Hi-Impact Bolt (said 1500 damage on the tooltip) commonly CRITING for less than 1500 (it ignores 90% of armor) on classes like Assassins and Sorcerers. It seemed like my damage had dropped a good 50% or more. I'm still not even sure how that was possible.

 

I'm not really sure what the solution is, though. If PvP gear is easy to get, people will use it for PvE and can potentially make operations too easy, or vice-versa.

 

At least it's pretty easy to get Centurion gear now. Can take a day or two of miserable PvP, but it's over after that, I guess.

Edited March 5, 2012 by savionen

[Bbizzle]

I am not going to get into the math behind Expertise, I don't care, it has been done enough. This is simply my observation from playing since early access, taking two characters to 50 with a decent spread of time between them.

 

My first character to 50 was my Juggernaut, I hit 50 about mid January, and through WZ's managed to gear myself in full Champion gear. Being part of the early crowd to obtain my gear I at first didn't pay much attention to the Expertise argument, and how much of an advantage it is. Eventually I decided I would try and see what everyone was talking about, and rolled another character. The choice being the Agent to Operative route, even though they were nerfed heavily.

 

During the leveling of my Operative I spent a great deal of time in WZ's. I capped my Mercenary Commendations, fully geared myself in PvP gear several times, as well as companions. With the exception of a level 42 rifle, there is no Expertise on these items, just generally decent stats. At level 50 I completely upgraded my gear with items I had purchased during my level from the GTN, with commendations, etc. Generally getting about the best you can have outside of the PvP/PvE Tier sets.

 

Upon hitting 50 and being about as well geared as I could be for a "Fresh 50" I started the 50 bracket. It is hard to explain what it was like, I don't think frustrating is accurate enough, depressing I suppose is the word. The sudden plummet in damage I dealt to these geared characters was a slap in the face. I was seeing some crits down in the triple digits, only to have the returning hit to crit for upwards of 4,000. Overall survivability immediately became something along the lines of zero, to a few seconds if lucky. I went from dealing 200,000+ damage in a WZ to under 75,000. Due to the lack of damage dealt and how quickly I died upon revealing myself.

 

I was lucky enough to get into a 1 v 1 with another Operative, he of course being fully PvP geared. The disparity between damage coming and going between us was insulting. I am generally OK with gear providing an edge in combat, that is the point of getting better gear. But when gear gives a clear decisive win to the other, it just feels wrong. Especially when keeping in mind that my Operative hit 50 with about the best gear you can have out side of the Tier 1/2/3, I spent a great deal of time setting that up. Most new players are not going to be able or know to take that step. They are going to be using items they randomly found, or quest rewards. Not gear obtained through meticulous planning. Which really means the experience for them will be even worse than what I had.

 

It is just really sad, and slightly depressing, to experience what these new guys are talking about. It isn't something that they are making up, the gab between the new and older isn't a gap, more of a canyon. It is simply amazing switching between my Juggernaut and my Operative and seeing how drastically different play is, all because of one stat.

 

Night and day....it needs to be resolved.

 

A pvp stat is just a bad design.

 

Id honestly rather see a gearing system like warhammer, Different sets have different bonuses, IE Centurion had set bonuses, champ had new different ones. Meaning there was variation, sacrifice, You COULD wear your champ gear but your centurion set bonuses are just amazing for your playstyle. So you're sacrificing stats/armor.

 

I also like how there was no pvp stat and was ward checks for pve. Meaning you could only do hardmodes when you had tier 2 (champ) gear set 5/5 or you just get hit too hard by bosses.

 

There was no pvp stat in war. If the set best for your class was a raid set, looks like you were raiding. If it was a pvp set, looks like you were pvping. They had the carrot on the stick thing for gear down. I know people who put 300+ hours into single characters inthat game.

 

They could just as easily just remove expertise, buff stats on battlemaster to be in line with rakata, and just go from there. That'd be a good first step. or nerf rakata to be in line with battlemaster, either way.

[Crunchyblack]

I think its great theres something to aquire and progress with at endgame for pvpers.

 

I see posts stating people quit because they couldnt get their gear fast or easy enoguh...what about they people who will quit when theres nothing left to do...since you handed everyone endgame gear for doing nothing?

 

I like the stat expertise....see a guy running around in pvp gear and im not...know hes a pvpers.

 

I think peoples expectations that are broken...this isnt a shooter deathmatch game...there is NO fair fight. these games are about exploiting your strengths and exploiting your opponents weaknesses. There are suppose to be fights you cant win...its why the older RPG games gave you a run option.

 

Applied to pvp...its not suppose to be about pure player skill in a fair even setting. Put your time in being pvp food for those who put their time in before you, earn your gear and your expertise.

 

or continue to complain and whine how the game isnt fair/broken/dev's bad. They didnt want a game that was a fair deathmatch, otherwise it would be a FPS/TPS shooter with no levels or progression. Go play CS basically.

[Skillmare]

Listen up pumpkin,

 

If you got over 400 expertise in 2 days, you play WAY more than the average player. Your argument is thus invalid, and stupid.

 

In a well designed game, skill should trump gear. In this game, you literally CAN NOT win against a better geared player if they have even half of a brain. I can outplay the **** out of someone, blow all my CD's and still lose to their gear.

 

How can anyone consider that enjoyable?

Where does it end, then? Should a level 10 be able to beat a level 50? Oh, wait, that's not fair because...why?

 

Everything about MMOs is progression. Whether you agree with it or not is actually irrelevant, as there is no actual disadvantage other than time invested. If you can't invest the time, MMOs are not for you. That's just the way it is.

 

Although, Centurion gear is so easily obtainable that I don't see that huge of a problem. Pending class and skill of a player, a Centurion can beat a battlemaster, as BM requires more time but doesn't indicate skill.

[Tenndou]

People are quitting the game because most of it sucks.

 

Expertise is a factor in that.

 

You simply cannot win in this situation as a developer though, and they've set themselves up for it, so don't blame the players.

 

If they remove expertise, "PvPers" will cry about it and unsub.

 

Then PvE carebears will cry about it and unsub because now all of a sudden you get close to equal gear from PvP (soloable) as you can from raiding (not).

 

Or you can nerf down PvP gear a bit, after removing expertise, then PvPers will cry again because they feel like their efforts should be rewarded with gear *at least* as good as what you get from raiding. As I said, Bioware's end game design is what put them here, not people crying for expertise nerfs, or kids that stay at home all day to grind gear. It's ****** design, at the core.

 

Or you could set your game up from stage one so that there is more of a reason to come back than soft gear resets. It's absolutely *********** ludicrous that we are only 2 months into the game's life and devs are already talking about the "next tier of gear coming in 1.2".

 

It is becoming extremely clear that this game's end game content is practically a carbon copy of WoW's. Complete with soft gear resets just to keep the gear grinders happy, because apparently thats the only crowd that belongs in MMOs.

 

Less ppl would quit if they actually had something to do except 1-2 days of ezmode raiding, daylie quests and pvp with randoms

 

good content buys the game time to get polished, ppl can live with some bugs / bad features but they cant live without content

[Dannicus]

I love how much of this thread derailed into a lot about what the OP never even was talking about. So many people here have missed the point entirely.

 

The key problem with Expertise is that it trumps skill. Unless you can match that stat against your opponent and neutralize the bonuses it provides, even if you are a significantly better player they are going to destroy you. PvP stats have been a terrible idea since their inception. Not PvP gear, but the stat in particular that only factors into fights between players. The stat disparity then, in most cases unless you're a geared raider, only exacerbates the problem. Stat disparity between a fresh 50 and a geared 50 is one thing. It's not only expected but the foundation behind gear progression design. A PvP stat is entirely another.

 

Now, I am a PvPer, but my sniper will be my first character to ding 50 yet only has one bag and nowhere near 1k/1k at level 49. Some of my alts are going to be in a much better situation, though, because I'm mixing in more PvP and focusing more on just doing class quests with them. But, my sniper, being my first character, has rather purposefully done a lot more PvE to experience that part of the game. Why should I, just because I may have focused more PvE over PvP for a character, be at a tremendous disadvantage the moment I ding 50? Why should ANY player, just because they leveled to max on PvE, be FORCED to slog through a couple hundred warzones of being completely worthless and being utterly destroyed by almost every other player just to become competitive? Why shouldn't I be able to eek out the best non-raid stuff I possibly can for myself and be competitive? Why is it that my personal leveling choice to reach max mean the difference between fun PvP and being ostracized by my team?

 

PVP gear needs to lose Expertise and its stats/bonuses normalized to be more in line with raid gear. A change like that would only anger the selfish jerks who think they deserve more than other people for no other reason than because they want to have more than other people. It would, however, open up both sides of the game to all players without this pointless and arbitrary wall between them and would stop punishing players who didn't ding 50 with a bag and 1k/1k comms just because they didn't feel like leveling only on warzones for that character. I'd like to use my sawbones scoundrel in PvP some day but I've been leveling him only PvE to play with friends. I'll not even be valor 10 by time I ding 50 at this rate. Why should I be punished because of that, especially when I'm a good player? Why should my skill be trumped by your PvP stat just because I dinged 50 in the PvE game?

[AstralProjection]

I love how much of this thread derailed into a lot about what the OP never even was talking about. So many people here have missed the point entirely.

 

The key problem with Expertise is that it trumps skill. Unless you can match that stat against your opponent and neutralize the bonuses it provides, even if you are a significantly better player they are going to destroy you. PvP stats have been a terrible idea since their inception. Not PvP gear, but the stat in particular that only factors into fights between players. The stat disparity then, in most cases unless you're a geared raider, only exacerbates the problem. Stat disparity between a fresh 50 and a geared 50 is one thing. It's not only expected but the foundation behind gear progression design. A PvP stat is entirely another.

 

Now, I am a PvPer, but my sniper will be my first character to ding 50 yet only has one bag and nowhere near 1k/1k at level 49. Some of my alts are going to be in a much better situation, though, because I'm mixing in more PvP and focusing more on just doing class quests with them. But, my sniper, being my first character, has rather purposefully done a lot more PvE to experience that part of the game. Why should I, just because I may have focused more PvE over PvP for a character, be at a tremendous disadvantage the moment I ding 50? Why should ANY player, just because they leveled to max on PvE, be FORCED to slog through a couple hundred warzones of being completely worthless and being utterly destroyed by almost every other player just to become competitive? Why shouldn't I be able to eek out the best non-raid stuff I possibly can for myself and be competitive? Why is it that my personal leveling choice to reach max mean the difference between fun PvP and being ostracized by my team?

 

PVP gear needs to lose Expertise and its stats/bonuses normalized to be more in line with raid gear. A change like that would only anger the selfish jerks who think they deserve more than other people for no other reason than because they want to have more than other people. It would, however, open up both sides of the game to all players without this pointless and arbitrary wall between them and would stop punishing players who didn't ding 50 with a bag and 1k/1k comms just because they didn't feel like leveling only on warzones for that character. I'd like to use my sawbones scoundrel in PvP some day but I've been leveling him only PvE to play with friends. I'll not even be valor 10 by time I ding 50 at this rate. Why should I be punished because of that, especially when I'm a good player? Why should my skill be trumped by your PvP stat just because I dinged 50 in the PvE game?

 

I think the problem is that you're "assuming" that skill will be trumped because of this, despite the fact that tons of people have stated the contrary.

 

Skill isn't trumped by gear. It never is. There's a (brief) disadvantage, but really good players will beat you no matter what you're wearing. Good players will at least be competitive.

 

That skill is trumped by gear is a myth often spread by people who take losing too personally.

 

I've never seen someone post on a forum that isn't a "good player". Somewhere down the line, SOMEBODY's gotta be wrong.

 

I'm not saying I'm the awesome player. But there was no unstoppable gear gap when I (and many others) hit 50. I actually think I'm a pretty average PVPer, not amazing, not terrible.

[PostalTwinkie]

Yeah like some people here have said, you can't hit 50 and expect to do all that great right away. If you were smart and had 1k/1k comms, along with a pre-purchased bag, you should have 6 bags with which to get comms out of. That nets you about 2 pieces of centurion and 42 champion comms, not to mention if you're lucky and get an item inside a bag. Then just grind it out for a couple days and pick up a few more pieces, and it should be a lot more even.

 

The other thing is, playing an Operative. It's the squishiest class there is, especially with no expertise. You rely on bursting people down, but against players with champion sets you won't be doing much dmg, on top of the mostly rediculous nerfs the Operative class has suffered. Not that I'll complain, as I still do amazing in PvP with my mostly champion geared Operative, but that's much more a testiment to player skill.

 

I did have max Commendations, and out of my 6 bags I did not get an item. Even had I gotten an item I would not have used it, as it would have defeated the purpose of what I was trying to do. Which was find out how bad is it for a Fresh 50 compared to a geared character, like my Juggernaut.

 

The OP is yet another person who doesn't inderstand the extra stat bonuses you get alongside the expertise that makes battlemaster gear that much better. A full battlemaster warrior will have like 400 more str than a fresh 50 warrior. That MIGHT have a tiny bit to do with why they can kill fresh 50's faster.

It seems the OP is also one of those people who doesn't know how to play as a fresh 50. Here's a screenshot I took right when I hit 50, and then one exactly 20 mins after my first WZ at 50.

I didn't exactly throw down a lot of damage, but I had decent protection (not tank spec), a good amount of medals, and as always, what the scoreboard doesn't show, how much I assisted my team members.

http://i40.tinypic.com/10zzgw8.jpg

 

Fresh 50 WZ

 

Basically, I didn't do amazing, but I definitely wasn't on the bottom, and, as you can see, no PvP gear at all. Yes, the scoreboard could be hiding PvP implants and stuff, but it's not. It's hard to see, but you can see

Expertise: 0

 

Basically, expertise doesn't make a good player, just adjust your playstyle when you're a fresh 50. You're not gonna be awesome right away. Gear up a bit, then go be awesome.

 

I don't understand stat bonuses? I don't know how to play fresh 50? What part of my post did you miss that I have a completely geared Juggernaut? I am well aware of how to play, I am well aware of stat differences. My Operatives gear, as stated, is about as good as you can get until you get into the Tier sets. The base stat difference isn't as drastic as you are thinking. Not even close enough to explain the playability difference.

 

Again, this isn't a "New guy ************ about hitting 50." This is a situation of someone who has played since day two of early access, who has a fully geared character, wanting to see what the new guys are talking about. I was firmly on the "Expertise isn't so bad" side of the fence, until I performed this little experiment.

 

The difference in expertise between BM and champ is on average 2.1% with a cube.

 

If you cant even get the champ set with how the token system is now then you are hopeless.

 

 

This entire thread comes down to.

 

"Lets nerf expertise and make others because im too lazy to get full champ."

 

Except the part where if you had actually read what I said, you would know I have been playing since Early Access and have a fully geared Juggernaut.

 

So........where is your argument now?

 

Skill isn't trumped by gear. It never is. There's a (brief) disadvantage, but really good players will beat you no matter what you're wearing. Good players will at least be competitive.

 

That skill is trumped by gear is a myth often spread by people who take losing too personally.

 

Except in this particular game Gear is trumping skill. As long as a person has enough mental capacity to target you and smash buttons, they are going to win if they are Champion/BM and you are Orange moddable 50.

 

------------

 

I see a lot of people saying "Well PvP gear should have progression, and should be better, and etc etc". I am sorry, I have been gaming since the early 80's, skill mattered over gear. As I stated previously, I don't care that there are better sets of gear, that is fine. But to have disparity in stats between sets that it makes up for skill is just wrong.

 

A couple people on here have basically taken the "Care Bear" line and "Oh, newbies just need to suck it up", that level of sentiment. When the truth is if people are as good at PvP as they say they are, they don't need Expertise or any other PvP specific stat. If people are so awesome "Valor Rank 60+" their skill should be enough to carry them.

 

I guess I am just a little too old school when I want a system that actually requires skill and rewards skill. Everyone is essentially on the same playing field, the better player wins. That is why it is called Player versus Player, you are putting your skills as a player against those of another. It isn't Gear vs Gear, who has gotten lucky with the RNG and gotten a drop from the bag.

 

Everyone that hasn't read this entire thread needs to go back and do it. You will notice something, the people that are pro Expertise have one argument "Get commendations, get bags, get Expertise." Which is something I did! The point is when you have to start doing that you aren't playing against the player, you are playing against the RNG and the gear.

 

But I guess I am just the old fart of the group.

 

To you Fresh 50's: I feel for you, I made it a point to experience what you have. Instead of just continuing to faceroll around with my geared Rage Juggernaut, I walked a few miles in your shoes. I am sorry for you, hopefully it gets better.

Edited March 5, 2012 by PostalTwinkie

[xJACKTHERIPPERx]

I don't understand stat bonuses? I don't know how to play fresh 50? What part of my post did you miss that I have a completely geared Juggernaut? I am well aware of how to play, I am well aware of stat differences. My Operatives gear, as stated, is about as good as you can get until you get into the Tier sets. The base stat difference isn't as drastic as you are thinking. Not even close enough to explain the playability difference.s and have a fully geared Juggernaut.

 

well all i know is in that SS I had about 880 Str, and now im around 1600 with full columi amd my rakata stim, but you're right, almost doubling your main stat probly doesn't do anything to help your damage in a WZ... lol

[Gnugthreeonefive]

Couldn't agree more with the OP. I just got to 50, and went from dealing over 200k damage in almost every WZ, topping the damage charts 90% of the time, to being completely worthless, dealing around 75k per WZ.

 

Like he said, frustrating doesn't capture the feeling. It is depressing, I don't feel like I even want to spend the time trying to painfully grind out better gear just so I can start having fun.

 

Expertise should reduce incoming damage ONLY, and not have an effect on outgoing or anything else.

 

I lol'ed.

 

Anyways, I guess what you're syaing is Expertise should have half the effect it is now?

 

It's all a matter of taste. Imo one could remove/bolster gear so that all are equal. But we does love the gear grind:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=343123

[Kabaal]

It's not just the expertise. BM gear for example has higher base stats and armour value when all mods are removed except the unremovable armouring compared to say orange gear with the best purple armouring slotted you can get. ALL of the stats will be higher than yours on their character screen, so a BM doesn't just do 13% more damage and recieve 13% less damage than you do. They are a few % better off than you due to the base stats and THEN 13% more on top of that.

 

Personally i don't mind it, the only time i did was when i decided to go into a 50 match on a brand new 50 alt without at least buying a centurian helm and chest so i didn't stand out so much. Going in looking like a brand new 50 in <50 armour designs just makes you a flashing target to the other side. A couple of well placed centurian pieces later and you don't die so much as you don't stick out like a sore thumb except to those that are aware of the colour differences in the gear on the opposite side.

 

One thing i will say, comparing any fresh 50 alt regardless of gear to a BM Juggernaut is just silly. Jugg was my first BM too and i'd say it's one of the strongest classes in a group scenario the way the game is now with so many heals around, at least on my server.

[Dannicus]

I think the problem is that you're "assuming" that skill will be trumped because of this, despite the fact that tons of people have stated the contrary.

 

Skill isn't trumped by gear. It never is. There's a (brief) disadvantage, but really good players will beat you no matter what you're wearing. Good players will at least be competitive.

 

That skill is trumped by gear is a myth often spread by people who take losing too personally.

 

I've never seen someone post on a forum that isn't a "good player". Somewhere down the line, SOMEBODY's gotta be wrong.

 

I'm not saying I'm the awesome player. But there was no unstoppable gear gap when I (and many others) hit 50. I actually think I'm a pretty average PVPer, not amazing, not terrible.

 

You just missed my point entirely. Gear disparity is one thing. Disparity of a PVP stat is entirely another. I fully expect that someone in better gear has an advantage over me. The problem is that his gear not only is superior but he has an artificial buff giving him more damage than normal and takes less damage than normal because of the PvP stat. Skill can only trump so much gear in games like this. Expertise is a completely unfair stat for those who lack it because it's an arbitrary and unnecessary second advantage. Gear should make a difference, but skill should matter the most, and it's not only unfair but flat out stupid if I can consistently outplay some players yet consistently lose because they have Expertise and I don't.

 

And as I had pointed out, it's not so much that Expertise even exists, it's that in order to have a competitive level of Expertise, you either needed to dedicate a lot of the leveling process to getting a bag and 1k/1k OR suffer through warzones where you've gone from powerful and effective to weak and worthless until you finally catch up. I'm topping kills, damage, and objective points with my level 14 Marauder. I'm effective and strong from an extremely early moment in the 10-49 bracket. In the 50 bracket, if I don't have something like 300 expertise minimum, I'm nothing but a drag on my team and a free kill for the other. I should not be forced into grinding for expertise just to become competitive in the 50 bracket when I can be a force to be reckoned with the moment I hit fleet for the 10-49.

 

Suffice it to say, a PvP stat is a horrible idea in every game it's implemented in, and needs to be discarded badly.

[jayfourc]

I don't get it. Expertise has nothing to do with battlemaster against fresh 50s.

Do you think fresh 50s can compete against fully geared rakata players?

If we take out expertise, do you think fresh 50s can compete against fully geared battlemasters? Learn your game before spouting nonsense in the boards.

 

Ditto.

 

I'm full BM (with sprinkle of rakata pieces to maximize dmg - 552 exp = 10.8% pvp boost), but when I swap over to my PVE set it's actually pretty similar. I gain around 13% HP and 9% dmg.

 

OP notes that he's playing in non-tiered PVE gear but expects to be competitive against tiered PVP gear. The expertise isn't the issue. It's the tier vs non-tiered, where stat difference is the whole point. The expertise just makes it look like they're closer in stats than it seems - I go from 16.3K HP in PVP gear to 18.5K HP in PVE gear and I'm guessing his "best available non-tiered" PVE gear only gives him 12K or so (and you can probably scale damage similarly).

 

If anything PVP tiered gear is easier to get than PVE tiered gear if you're skilled. By the time I hit 50 I had a group of solid PvP friends and guildies who knew I could handle myself in WZ's and vice versa. We geared up together pretty easily. If your valor is way behind your level, well everyone had to go through that grind.

 

Now, if the complaint is that you shouldn't have to grind out for gear in order to play in PVP, then you'd still end up with the same complaint against raiders with their full Rakata gear. A solution for this would be to make everyone's stats the same when they pvp, which I actually kind of support, but then you'd get even more forum blasts about who's OP and who's nerfed too much. But since that was not implemented, BW rightfully needed to get a way to prevent hardcore PVE raiders from coming into PVP and rolling everyone.

Edited March 5, 2012 by jayfourc

[Spifnar]

On top of that, there's some horrible itemization going on for the Champ/Cent gear that people might not know about.

 

Operative sets have a ton of +accuracy...a nearly worthless stat. Other sets might be just as bad. A new 50 can't afford to swap out all the enhancements/mods, because they don't have anything to put in it's place yet.

 

It's not just the expertise.

 

Something to try: go heals. I'm pretty much doing this on my new-50 sorc. 7 bags in, and still wearing my L48 armor orange gear with +25 expertise enhancements in every availiable armor and weapon slot (6). But that brings me up to almost 8% expertise with cent bracers/belt/earpiece/implant and Champ offhand

 

Sadly, 8% expertise doesn't mean that much against L56 purple armoring/mods/weapons/etc

[jayfourc]

On top of that, there's some horrible itemization going on for the Champ/Cent gear that people might not know about.

 

Operative sets have a ton of +accuracy...a nearly worthless stat. Other sets might be just as bad. A new 50 can't afford to swap out all the enhancements/mods, because they don't have anything to put in it's place yet.

 

It's not just the expertise.

 

Something to try: go heals. I'm pretty much doing this on my new-50 sorc. 7 bags in, and still wearing my L48 armor orange gear with +25 expertise enhancements in every availiable armor and weapon slot (6). But that brings me up to almost 8% expertise with cent bracers/belt/earpiece/implant and Champ offhand

 

Sadly, 8% expertise doesn't mean that much against L56 purple armoring/mods/weapons/etc

 

Expertise is tied to the armoring, which is still locked into the set pieces until 1.2. Where do you get expertise on your enhancements?

[Zyillo]

Oh, I missed that. Link with additional info? I am interested in seeing how much....

 

Check the Dev tracker, I think it was Stephen Reid who mentioned that he wanted to nerf it over a period of time. Because you know, if it was nerfed instantly LOL@ALL YOUR HARD WORK

[RefugeASSASSIN]

I had 150 expertise prior to 50 and did not gain any noticable advantage over those who were level 10-40. So I dont see how this argument really holds water?

 

When I dinged 50, I didnt go the route to collect 1000/1000 for the instant 6 bags and only had one I bought pre 50 and I saw the same reduction most others experience in the first couple of days. I can tell you that after I completed my 2 weeklies, a couple days worth of dailies and was able to purchase 4 or 5 Champion bags via commendations I saw my endgame output level out closer to what I was used to seeing at like 45-49. This was in less then a week. The key thing to remember is that your expertise is NOT the only stat that goes up when you are getting PVP gear, all your stats go up. I doubt most people are as concerned with diminishing returns pre-50 then they are after dinging, and there is a reason for that.

 

All expertise really does is allow bad players to faceroll fresh 50's. Once those 50's gear up the bad players get delt with. Its the circle of life.

 

TL;DR you had 39 levels of no gear disparity because of bolster. At 50, your gear progression IS your new bolster. You just have to put in the work for it.

Edited March 5, 2012 by RefugeASSASSIN

[NineInchNinja]

 

But I guess I am just the old fart of the group.

 

To you Fresh 50's: I feel for you, I made it a point to experience what you have. Instead of just continuing to faceroll around with my geared Rage Juggernaut, I walked a few miles in your shoes. I am sorry for you, hopefully it gets better.

 

I made a similar post here that ended with the same results. Lots of players so accustomed to the current MMO grind mechanic that they can't even conceive of something different. It's sad.

 

The responses to this topic are always the same:

 

- insult the OP's ability to PVP, ie attack the messenger

- Conclude that the OP doesn't want to work for gear, which is completely missing the point of the argument.

- Claim that because the gear isn't that hard to get or doesn't make that much of a difference makes up for the fact that it creates an unbalanced playing field that rewards time spent rather than skill or ability

 

I am also an old fart, and I'm disappointed in how brainwashed most MMO players have become. They accept that completing the level grind should be rewarded with more grinding, and they accept that players with more hours spent should be given an advantage over them.

 

I challenge posters here to try one of 2 things:

 

1) Run a champ up to 50 as the OP did, and see how much fun it is to play without gear. Then consider what that does to the casual PvP player population at level 50, and how that affects queue times. Also consider how that undermines the legitimacy of the whole solo and team ranking system

 

2) Play a non-mainstream MMO that deviates from this broken, unimaginative tiered gear mechanic. They are indie games for the most part, like Darkfall, and so lack the graphic and sound polish of the large label games, but they provide a much richer PvP experience.

 

I'm hoping that things change somewhat with 1.2, but I'm not expecting much.

 

Edit - typo

Edited March 5, 2012 by NineInchNinja

[Paerin]

You just proved his point. Most people don't play this game to level to 50 via PVP. I do have an Alt that's going for the 6 bags + expertise from 46ish weapons route, but even there he's 10 valor ranks below his level because he's done a modest amount of levelling via the storyline and missions.

 

My experience on entering level 50 warzones matches that of the OP pretty accurately, even though I already had mostly Corellia gear with Belsavis augs and so on. The availability of a "fresh 50 PVP set" would have made that a lot less traumatic.

 

You need to have amassed 4800 total Warzone commendations when you hit 50 to get your 6 bags. Since you cannot begin queuing until level 10 this averages out to 123 Commendations per level.

 

You are telling me that you are not hard core enough to participate in 2 Warzones each level while leveling up?

[RefugeASSASSIN]

I challenge posters here to try one of 2 things:

 

1) Run a champ up to 50 as the OP did, and see how much fun it is to play without gear. Then consider what that does to the casual PvP player population at level 50, and how that affects queue times. Also consider how that undermines the legitimacy of the whole solo and team ranking system

 

Edit - typo

 

Thats what I dont think people get. YES it does suck when your a fresh 50, but I sucked it up, stuck it out and now im reaping the fruits of that labor.

 

That being said, being almost fully Champ geared with a columi belt and tionese bracers I have been having a hell of a time lately in warzones winning games. Thats not gear disparity, thats SKILL/GROUP disparity which is entirely different. The long and short is with my 9% expertise if im double teamed by anyone (regarless of gear) im likely going to drop. Thats the risk I take for having to PUG. I have had games where I have facerolled and Ive had games where I was completely useless, even after obtaining gear.

 

TL;DR: Your gear doesnt make the rest of your team better, if they suck your likely going to lose and your individual stats will likely suffer as well.

[Kyntari]

You're not seeing expertise 'from both sides of the fence' until you get farmed by groups of players in max level raid gear in a game that has no expertise-like stat.

 

You can't understand expertise without talking about PvE. Gear progression exists in PvE, therefore PvE gear can become the best choice even for PvP if no additional measures are in place.

 

Common attempts to deal with this: limit/remove gear progression entirely from all aspects of the game, restrict which gear sets can be used where, or introduce a mechanic like expertise.

 

Expertise is kind of stupid, yes; but simply removing/nerfing it while doing nothing else will create even worse problems.

[Paerin]

Thats what I dont think people get. YES it does suck when your a fresh 50, but I sucked it up, stuck it out and now im reaping the fruits of that labor.

 

That being said, being almost fully Champ geared with a columi belt and tionese bracers I have been having a hell of a time lately in warzones winning games. Thats not gear disparity, thats SKILL/GROUP disparity which is entirely different. The long and short is with my 9% expertise if im double teamed by anyone (regarless of gear) im likely going to drop. Thats the risk I take for having to PUG. I have had games where I have facerolled and Ive had games where I was completely useless, even after obtaining gear.

 

TL;DR: Your gear doesnt make the rest of your team better, if they suck your likely going to lose and your individual stats will likely suffer as well.

 

I would rather have 15 minute queue times with quality players than instant pops when I am paired with teams of whining, sniveling, terrible players. I do not want to listen you to you ***** for 15 straight minutes on how bad the team is only to have it revealed at the end that you did 20k damage, 0 protection, and 0 healing.

 

If the 24 hour gap between getting rolled and competing is insurmountable to you then (in my best old man voice) get the hell out of my Warzone. 99% of the people that are PVPing in this game are just straight up terrible at it, or farming medals because of the broken *** valor system.

[Astarica]

You're not seeing expertise 'from both sides of the fence' until you get farmed by groups of players in max level raid gear in a game that has no expertise-like stat.

 

You can't understand expertise without talking about PvE. Gear progression exists in PvE, therefore PvE gear can become the best choice even for PvP if no additional measures are in place.

 

Common attempts to deal with this: limit/remove gear progression entirely from all aspects of the game, restrict which gear sets can be used where, or introduce a mechanic like expertise.

 

Expertise is kind of stupid, yes; but simply removing/nerfing it while doing nothing else will create even worse problems.

 

If there is no expertise then fresh 50s will be complaining about getting farmed by guys with full Rakata. The difference between full Rakata and full Tionese is just as great as the difference between full BM and full Centurion. Actually since Tionese actaully takes considerably more effort to obtain than Centurion, the difference is likely bigger in an expertise-less enviornment.

[Bluetickone]

If true, I am really puzzled. It is already many people who are using hybrid gear for pvp, and if expertize is nerfed who will care to get pvp gear at all?

 

Its already in this state. You have to raid to pvp competitvely. Its Rakata or nothing. BM is crap, worse than Columi....

 

I dont see the issue for fresh 50s. Its so easy to get Cent/Champ pieces now, lots of progress ahead, and reason to play. Try being BM and going through 30+ boxes w/o anything. Thats weeks and weeks of no further character development. Sure pvp is fun, but its supposed to be an MMORPG, not a first-person shooter (most of which even have better progression models than SWTOR)....

[Dannicus]

You're not seeing expertise 'from both sides of the fence' until you get farmed by groups of players in max level raid gear in a game that has no expertise-like stat.

 

You can't understand expertise without talking about PvE. Gear progression exists in PvE, therefore PvE gear can become the best choice even for PvP if no additional measures are in place.

 

Common attempts to deal with this: limit/remove gear progression entirely from all aspects of the game, restrict which gear sets can be used where, or introduce a mechanic like expertise.

 

Expertise is kind of stupid, yes; but simply removing/nerfing it while doing nothing else will create even worse problems.

 

Bold emphasis mine. How about gear that is comparable in stats for PvE AND for PvP, and drop Expertise entirely? The problem is in the stat. Having gear progression for PvP is perfectly fine. They should just be designed, in particular the set bonuses, around the game aspect they're intended for. People who didn't or couldn't raid in MMOs where PvP systems were being introduced were at an unfair disadvantage because there was no gear for them to use to compete with players who also raided. PvP gear was a great answer. The PvP stat, however, only turned the problem on its head and introduced a slew of others.

 

PvP stats are horrible ideas. Skill should always have a chance to trump gear, but this stat makes such a thing impossible. It unfairly punishes players who are unlucky or focused the PvE game till max level.