Parthis Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) You've got to love new MMOs; the community's understanding of mechanics can change so suddenly - a couple of days ago and we thought we knew this stuff very well indeed. Thanks for sharing and spreading the new information. I guess the bigger question around taunts adding to tank threat is whether it's intentional. It seems like a broken mechanic in many ways, and depending on the fight, not one you can rely on. In fact it completely trivialises threat on some encounters. Will we be seeing a condition added to taunts? (i.e. "has no effect if you're already targeted by the enemy"). Edited March 5, 2012 by Parthis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwamper Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Don't mean to flame, but this paragraph.... You can't code true random, and if the developer's didn't understand their own code, they wouldn't be good developers in the first place. Computer *have* to be static, and all games, in reality, are spreadsheets. I have been a programmer for my entire adult life. You can code random enough that the programmer will not know when the variations will occur, or at what values, just the upper and lower limits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted March 5, 2012 Author Share Posted March 5, 2012 I have been a programmer for my entire adult life. You can code random enough that the programmer will not know when the variations will occur, or at what values, just the upper and lower limits. This is correct. While true randomness is technically impossible, "random enough" is plenty possible. That said, a game that is truly random isn't fun. You're doing everything right, and suddenly the boss, by a 0.001% chance, crushes your tank into the ground for 400% of his max HP. Grants, you wiped, and there was nothing you could do about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baramov Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Great post, Kor, thanks for sharing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashu-ri Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Coming from another game, the tanks that you actually wanted to group with tanked this way, particularly since healing threat could get quite high. And it's not a "new" game, it's five years old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
_Darkstar Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Coming from another game, the tanks that you actually wanted to group with tanked this way, particularly since healing threat could get quite high. And it's not a "new" game, it's five years old. I come from a similar game too, I haven't tanked yet or done much high level content but if I had seen a tank not taunting I would have had a go at them! At least now I know when I have a go it is for a reason lol. Many props to Kor, cmf and Sithwarrior.com Also I love how the only useful post in the general section was buried so far down I had to search Daelia's post history to find it, such a shame - I wish there was a 'useful stuff' section. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwamper Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 This is correct. While true randomness is technically impossible, "random enough" is plenty possible. That said, a game that is truly random isn't fun. You're doing everything right, and suddenly the boss, by a 0.001% chance, crushes your tank into the ground for 400% of his max HP. Grants, you wiped, and there was nothing you could do about it. And this is the heart of what I am talking about. It SHOULD be unpredictable. This is why I don't like things like gear checks; it sucks all the fun of the encounter out. If everyone knows in advance that they will be successful, then the act of actually playing out the encounter is reduced to executing pre-memorized plans and steps, with no chance of some random element forcing those players to think and react on the spot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaedian Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 So basically taunt in this game works similar to that in EQ1, it adds a particular amount of threat rather than simply moving you to the top of the aggro list as most of the more recent games have adopted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Invictos Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Replying so I don't lose track of this thread. As usual, Daellia provides invaluable insight. Thanks! Edited March 5, 2012 by Invictos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mephismo Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 I noticed that if I stun a foe, choke or whatever. They seem to want to hit me more. Have you tested if stuns increase threat? Yes but most raiders aren’t as smart as the OP. No threat meter no combat log. Watching scrolling combat text made me lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaliceX Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Tagged. Well done.. again... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashu-ri Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 In the game I'm talking about (LOTRO) good tanks manage to keep aggro without a threat meter, as Turbine, even though we now have add ons, have not released threat numbers and never will. Such is the divide between good tanks and not so good tanks. Not everyone needs a threat meter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
va_wanderer Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) no WAY! /sarcasm lol Apparently you don't get it. Before, they didn't know that a tank could get the aggro boost if he taunts when HE is the highest threat- that is, tanks were told that taunting while they had the mob's attention was useless. Now, we know the tank benefits from taunting even if he's got aggro already. Edit: Posted link to this from the Vanguard board. OP, much thanks for the data. Edited March 5, 2012 by va_wanderer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskaan Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 (edited) Oh! Another thing that can augment threat quickly: taunt swaps. If another tank taunts off you, and you immediately taunt back, he will have been set at 130% of your threat (assuming you're both at max melee range), then you at 130% of his, instantly boosting your threat by 69%! That's interesting. So, no DR (diminishing return) on taunts and the boss doesnt become taunt immune at any point if two tanks keep taunting back and forth on CD. Edited March 5, 2012 by Muskaan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowOfVey Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 If that's true with taunt, I hope that is fixed. Sure in most cases it's easy to hold threat to protect your dpsers anyway, but the fact that taunt works like that completely trivializes the entire concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cpdm Posted March 5, 2012 Share Posted March 5, 2012 Thanks for posting, OP. Thanks to you and cmf for the great work discovering this new information on taunts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 So basically taunt in this game works similar to that in EQ1, it adds a particular amount of threat rather than simply moving you to the top of the aggro list as most of the more recent games have adopted. Yes and no. Taunts in this game don't add a particular amount of threat. They set your threat equal to the amount that would be necessary to pull off the current target. If that target is you (and you're standing at max melee range), it boosts your threat by 30% on use. If someone else is the target, it sets your threat equal to 130% of their threat, and sets you as the aggro target. It's dynamic. That's interesting. So, no DR (diminishing return) on taunts and the boss doesnt become taunt immune at any point if two tanks keep taunting back and forth on CD. We've yet to find a DR mechanic. That's not to say there isn't one, but I've personally observed 3 successive taunts with no duration effects or threat issues (granted, that's not proof, since WoW allows 3 taunts before immunity). I suspect there are no diminishing returns on taunts at this time, kept in check by the somewhat longer cooldown on taunts in SWTOR compared to other recent MMOs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallakias Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Sorry if i make any mistakes this is my first post ever. Great info on threat, i do have a question concerning this summary point. "- Taunt generates either 10% or 30% of your current threat (depending on how close you are to the target, see above bullet), even if you are the mob's current aggro target." So does threat generation increase the closer you are? or does this only apply during taunts? and if it is only for taunts, to be clear, to generate the most agro/use out of my taunt i should be inside of the mob as much as possible rather than being at max melee range (4m) ? Again great information, if you do more testing on anything please do share <3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 So does threat generation increase the closer you are? or does this only apply during taunts? and if it is only for taunts, to be clear, to generate the most agro/use out of my taunt i should be inside of the mob as much as possible rather than being at max melee range (4m) ? Other way around, actually. Standing at max melee range, for most target, puts you in the "ranged" category for threat, so taunting will set you at the current aggro target's threat +30% (if you are the current aggro target, it increases your current threat by 30% instead). If you're standing much closer to the target, you'll be in the "melee" category, and taunt would instead set your threat to 110% of the current target's threat (or boost your threat by 10% if you're the current aggro target). Basically, standing farther away is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daellia Posted March 6, 2012 Author Share Posted March 6, 2012 By the way, for those wondering, the details of the tests performed and the results are outlined in this post and this post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aleaucent Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 This is incredibly useful info! I thank you for putting it in terms i could wrap my head around having never played WoW and having no understanding of the threat mechanics in WoW or SWTOR. Taking this a step further, i will make some statements i believe to be true based on this info: A threat dump is more effective (overall threat wise) AFTER a taunt than before a taunt if you are on top of the hate list. It is 2-fold being your tank now gets 130% of w/e threat you just had and now you get to reduce your threat (1000 threat on you--> taunt --> 1300 threat on tank --> theat dump (assume a 25% one and not a full dump) --> 750 threat for you and 1300 for the tank. You go from being at the top of the threat list to being almost 50% less threat than the tank. It also looks as this can be taken advantage of in another way. It may be advantageous in certain situations to let a heavy hitting DPS with a threat dump (we'll use commando as the example) open the fight. It should be possible to have the Commando open up with all his bursty damage abilities to start the fight with a high amount of threat, have the tank taunt it and follow up with high threat generating abilities while the commando threat dumps to start with the tank having a fairly high amount of threat right off the bat. Now use taunts on cooldown and it should stay on the tank for the duration (assuming single boss with no threat-resets) The hide-and-seek boss in M prison comes to mind here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ConradLionhart Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Nice info. Thanks for the data collection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calimwulf Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Awesome information and thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akella Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 A useful post and no QQ. I think my head is going to explode. Thanks very much for this info OP. courtesy /bump. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bruced Posted March 6, 2012 Share Posted March 6, 2012 Thank you so much for posting this. I suspect the 4m from center will solve a lot of jedi guardian's threat issues Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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