New Information on Threat

[Ashu-ri]

Thought I'd bump this so it doesn't get buried again. This really is a candidate for a STICKY.

[Evel]

Yes, it's obvious that taunts are good at getting aggro back. However, the fact that taunts actually generate threat, even if the mob is already attacking you, is very important (and very different from recent MMOs like WoW and Rift). This means that if you're in a circumstance where you can reasonably assume you won't need to taunt for the next 15 seconds (or you have your AoE taunt up as an emergency taunt), you can use taunt as a raw threat increase. This is a very unintuitive use of the ability, and one most tanks wouldn't actually think about unless they see information like this.

 

Great information. This is indeed a completely different paradigm compared to games of the past where Taunting would only boost you temporarily. I will definitely be including this into my rotation going forward.

 

 

<3 sithwarrior.com

[RealAeiouy]

Very interesting information, thanks for sharing. The taunt information I find especially interesting.

[Lethality]

Usually floating combat text, along with a few other methods. Testing by recording how much damage is necessary to pull off another target, knowing how much damage the other target has done as well, is the easiest way.

 

As for linking "my" site, it's not mine. I'm just a moderator there. In addition, though it may not have penetrated as far as General yet, sithwarrior.com is basically EJ for SWTOR. My apologies if my membership on the moderator staff on that site interferes with your willingness to let me link to my sources on the theorycrafting hub for SWTOR.

 

There's no need for such a site with TOR...

[Xneco]

So basically taunt in this game works similar to that in EQ1, it adds a particular amount of threat rather than simply moving you to the top of the aggro list as most of the more recent games have adopted.

 

Read it again... it does move you to the top of the threat list.

[RealAeiouy]

You've got to love new MMOs; the community's understanding of mechanics can change so suddenly - a couple of days ago and we thought we knew this stuff very well indeed. Thanks for sharing and spreading the new information.

 

I guess the bigger question around taunts adding to tank threat is whether it's intentional. It seems like a broken mechanic in many ways, and depending on the fight, not one you can rely on. In fact it completely trivialises threat on some encounters. Will we be seeing a condition added to taunts? (i.e. "has no effect if you're already targeted by the enemy").

 

The more I think of it the more it does sound like it might be broken. Once this information is common knowledge it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

I like the idea of taunt always generating threat but doing full threat gain over yourself seems unintended.

[Calimwulf]

The more I think of it the more it does sound like it might be broken. Once this information is common knowledge it will be interesting to see what happens.

 

I like the idea of taunt always generating threat but doing full threat gain over yourself seems unintended.

Yep. I have a feeling that they will be 'adjusting' things, assuming that the information is accurate. *no insult intended to OP.

[Daellia]

Thought I'd bump this so it doesn't get buried again. This really is a candidate for a STICKY.

 

Unfortunately, I doubt this will get Stickied, and being a forum moderator myself (though not of these forums, obviously), I would agree with that decision. This isn't really sticky material, as it's really just providing information, in particular information that's likely to change as this becomes more commonly known (especially the piece about taunts, as others have pointed out).

 

However, I ended up having a PM exchange with one of the moderates about this thread (and a couple others on the subject), and it was suggested that I make a guide to threat mechanics and strategies in general, which I am currently working on. That type of thread would be more appropriate sticky material, as it would be a living guide rather than simply a report of results.

 

There's no need for such a site with TOR...

 

Such is your opinion. I see no reason why SWTOR has any less need or use for a theorycrafting hub than any other game, though. The amount of information we've provided to the community just in the last 3 months is rather mind-boggling.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Daellia

[Lethality]

Such is your opinion. I see no reason why SWTOR has any less need or use for a theorycrafting hub than any other game, though. The amount of information we've provided to the community just in the last 3 months is rather mind-boggling.

 

1) MUCH smaller community than WoW (making the amount of theory crafters minute, at best)

2) TOR is not focused on that style gameplay

Edited March 6, 2012 by Lethality

[Daellia]

1) MUCH smaller community than WoW (making the amount of theory crafters minute, at best)

2) TOR is not focused on that style gameplay

 

For the former, community size is largely irrelevant. Just because we have less people playing the game doesn't mean the information is any less useful. Beyond that, Sithwarrior saw over 300000 unique visitors over the month of January (MasterKiller hasn't posted Feb stats yet), with over 2 million page views. We've had over 12 thousand registered users active in just the last 24 hours. I'd say that's a pretty solid community.

 

On the latter, how are you justifying this? This game has end-game progression, both in PvP and PvE. End-game progression in MMOs is characterized by theorycrafting and min-maxing, and has been since epic adventures were first created back in the early days of P&P RPGs.

 

Basically, whether you believe SWTOR should have a theorycrafting community or not, it does, and Sithwarrior is its home. You're not getting rid of us just because you believe SWTOR isn't "focused on that style of gameplay" (nor is Bioware going to get rid of us just by obfuscating mechanics. That just gives us a challenge).

[Lethality]

For the former, community size is largely irrelevant. Just because we have less people playing the game doesn't mean the information is any less useful. Beyond that, Sithwarrior saw over 300000 unique visitors over the month of January (MasterKiller hasn't posted Feb stats yet), with over 2 million page views. We've had over 12 thousand registered users active in just the last 24 hours. I'd say that's a pretty solid community.

 

On the latter, how are you justifying this? This game has end-game progression, both in PvP and PvE. End-game progression in MMOs is characterized by theorycrafting and min-maxing, and has been since epic adventures were first created back in the early days of P&P RPGs.

 

Basically, whether you believe SWTOR should have a theorycrafting community or not, it does, and Sithwarrior is its home. You're not getting rid of us just because you believe SWTOR isn't "focused on that style of gameplay" (nor is Bioware going to get rid of us just by obfuscating mechanics. That just gives us a challenge).

 

Sure, within the niche it is, it's a nice size community. But, as I hope you understand, doesn't hold a candle to WoW and EJ.

 

End game progression that people care about? Really? Where? Where are the progression tracking sites, where are the world rankings? No one cares about raid progression here because it ISN'T THAT KIND OF GAME. Theorycrafting can exist, but it's a dead end.

 

If you want to spend your time decrypting stuff that BioWare wants to keep hidden, for a game that clearly has it's design goals elsewhere, have at it.

 

It became clear yesterday that the Legacy system is their progression. Enjoy.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Lethality

[Calimwulf]

Question on threat, though due to the negativity I might just be registering with sithwarrior, does healer threat also build at 130% when at range?

[Daellia]

Question on threat, though due to the negativity I might just be registering with sithwarrior, does healer threat also build at 130% when at range?

 

Healers also need 130% of the tank's threat to pull, yes. They do not generate 130% of normal threat (nor do dps) at range, however, which sounds like what you might have thought. The 110% and 130% refer to the threat pull threshold, not to the threat multiplier.

[Hxxr]

2) TOR is not focused on that style gameplay

 

As it stands the players still choose the style of gampley last time I checked.

I feel great about a theory platform for this game and it seems that other people do so as well.

 

That being said, people like to test incorectly, jump to conclusions too quickly and sometimes just write whatever comes to their mind (or so it seem).

I hope Sithwarrior improves on some of the Sniper and Mercenary topics and maybe 2500% threat dump on Intercede should be rechecked. Last week I pulled aggro on Gahrj, second platform, after I was jumped at by the tank. So either my game is just different or your test is wrong.

 

ps: 0.25% seems to be a typo. :>

[Daellia]

I hope Sithwarrior improves on some of the Sniper and Mercenary topics and maybe 2500% threat dump on Intercede should be rechecked. Last week I pulled aggro on Gahrj, second platform, after I was jumped at by the tank. So either my game is just different or your test is wrong.

 

ps: 0.25% seems to be a typo. :>

 

Typo or not, the game files verify the 2500% reduction on it (or more precisely, that it has 100 times the threat reduction of Cloud Mind and similar). I'll double-check it, though.

[Jackobite]

Very interesting op

 

thankyou for the info.

[Kaedian]

We've yet to find a DR mechanic. That's not to say there isn't one, but I've personally observed 3 successive taunts with no duration effects or threat issues (granted, that's not proof, since WoW allows 3 taunts before immunity). I suspect there are no diminishing returns on taunts at this time, kept in check by the somewhat longer cooldown on taunts in SWTOR compared to other recent MMOs.

 

Could test that by going 2 tanks, 1-2 top dps and 4-5 healers and see how the taunts work past three. The mob would certainly live long enough to pass a three taunt threshold.

 

Edit: Thanks for the work done so far, it's been very enlightening.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Kaedian

[Baelish]

Got it.

 

Now all the need to do is introduce a ruler into the game so I know how far off I am and I'm sorted.

The range to your target is displayed below its portrait.

[Daellia]

The range to your target is displayed below its portrait.

 

That range is inaccurate for determining if you're in "melee range" for the purposes of threat. Even being inside 4m on that meter, for most targets, doesn't put you within the "melee" category on threat.

[Vid-szhite]

I assume this would work

 

You can use an ability that you have to be within 4m to use.. I think most classes get one. If the ability is lit up then you are wihtin 4m if darkened then you are futher than 4m

 

Right below the portrait of your current target is an inconspicuous number that shows you how far away they currently are, in meters.

 

The devs really need to just let you stick that number over the target in bright yellow numbers.

[Fiddyy]

Taunts don't work like that by the way!

[Daellia]

Taunts don't work like that by the way!

 

The justification behind this claim is?

[Barborin]

So basically taunt in this game works similar to that in EQ1, it adds a particular amount of threat rather than simply moving you to the top of the aggro list as most of the more recent games have adopted.

 

You are right and wrong. It IS similar to how it worked in EQ1, but not for the reason you mentioned. In EQ1, taunt set you to just a few points above the highest on the threat list. So if that's what you meant by a set amount, sure. But if you taunted when you already had aggro, it only increased threat by one. Unless they changed it since I played (Planes of Power).

 

 

Anyhow, back on topic. So, according to this, a fight should look like the following:

 

Tank as close to the mob as possible. Melee DPS at max range. Ranged at range (obviously). Tank taunting whenever off cool down, unless they are having trouble keep aggro. In which cause, in a raid scenario, if aggro is an issue, (yay Commas!) a second tank could taunt, immediately followed by an MT's taunt, to give a major boost?

[Daellia]

Anyhow, back on topic. So, according to this, a fight should look like the following:

 

Tank as close to the mob as possible. Melee DPS at max range. Ranged at range (obviously). Tank taunting whenever off cool down, unless they are having trouble keep aggro. In which cause, in a raid scenario, if aggro is an issue, (yay Commas!) a second tank could taunt, immediately followed by an MT's taunt, to give a major boost?

 

Yes, and in fact we used this exact technique to great effect against Foreman Crusher the other day. Between add spawns, when our dps jugg (who functions as our offtank on fights that need it) wasn't tanking the adds, he would taunt the boss, then the MT would instantly taunt back, granting a 69% boost in threat. This made it impossible for even me to pull off the tank.

[CRuby]

Fast question about the Intercede as i havent followed full thread and hope it wasnt asked. Does it remove/reset tank threat or the person that get the Intercede? Also this is about the Veng spec where the said skill grant the tank buff as well. Edited March 11, 2012 by CRuby