V/O with Cinematics does not mean good story.

[KurleyKilla]

Most people who played Diablo 2 were immersed in grinding for useless items, not the "epic story". Stop acting like your opinion is the only valid one.

 

Well in that post we are talking about Diablo 1 in particular.

 

How exactly am I acting like my opinion is the only valid one?

 

He has his opinion and I have mine.

 

We are having a discussion/debate.

 

That is actually exactly what these forums are for.

 

 

Diablo 2 kept people (long term... we are talking... right now.. thousands of people are still playing this game) with it's endless replayability and yes grinding for items...

 

How many people played Diablo 2 purely single player just to experience the story?...countless numbers of people... Including myself.

 

Playing solo offline was a real challenge and a fun way to experience the game and it's story.

 

What exactly do we do in SWTOR but grind items? or try to accumulate wealth in some way? oh yea... the story of course of course..

Edited March 4, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[Cormey]

All the NPC's in Diablo 1 having Voice overs was absolutely groundbreaking... as well as many other things they did.

 

Games had been fully voiced for several years at that point. Day of the Tentacle has a good 3 years on Diablo 1, it was fully voiced and contained FAR more lines of dialogue than diablo 1 and 2 combined. I wouldn't call that ground breaking.

 

 

For me, Diablo 1 was all about the atmosphere. The story wasn't a big point (it wasn't bad, but it wasn't what made me like diablo) and was once again just monologues pushing you to a yes/no answer, the dialogue was telling a story rather than making your character a part of it.

 

Diablo 2 to a lesser extent was also atmosphere, it's longevity and accolades were all based on it's replayablity rather than it's story.

 

My friends and myself played both games quite a lot, we didn't play them for their story.

 

In terms of TOR, i actually do play it for its story presentation. I don't want to go back to a wiki-style textbox MMOG after playing this.

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[MaverickXIV]

Witcher 2

There was a story in between the softcore **** scenes? Shocking.

[KurleyKilla]

I’ll start with what I consider the be the games I enjoyed THE most that I’ve played so far. I’m not saying they are good. I’m saying I loved them. There’s a big difference.

 

Tie for best loved = Wing Commander 3, Wing Commander 4.

 

Actual live cinematic actors. Filmed. Holy crap. I loved that. And, your choices during the dialog was 2 choices (from memory) :

 

“Nice” (top of screen)

“Mean” (bottom of screen)

 

It would affect what characters died, came back, helped you in a mission, etc…

 

I couldn’t tell you a single thing about the gameplay. In fact, I got as annoyed about the gameplay as many of you get about the dialog here in TOR. If I could have spacebar-ed past… kill Kilrathi fighters… kill Kilrathi cap ships… protect fragile escort ship… I’d have been happy.

 

Despite the gameplay, not because of it, those are the games I liked the best. Yes, I want an interactive movie. Considering I don’t especially mind cheeseball movies and TV shows, I totally can enjoy that level of story in a game. (There’s only a handful of super-hero movies that I don’t totally rave about…)

 

Next Up = Dark Forces 2, Jedi Knight

 

Basically, the thrill of again, seeing real life actors in cutscenes. Now granted, it was done a little closer to my “cornball” line, but I enjoyed it.

 

Again, it was the “stupid gameplay thing that’s in the way of my cutscenes”… so I only remember the spinning crashing ship level… and none of the others. I didn’t find it too much of a disconnect to go from a poorly drawn character, to a movie actor with sets, as, the gameplay was “in the way” anyways.

 

Third Place = Tex Murphy Franchise

 

Many of you probably never even of heard of it. Think 1920s stereotypical (and I mean REALLY stereotypical) detective type… but set in the far future. It was a puzzle game. I’m predictable by now into what I liked / disliked about it.

 

Love his cutscenes. Some were surprisingly scary (the Area 51 part gave me and my wife nightmares for a week), others, delightfully (for us) cheese-humour.

 

Puzzles? Yeah, I remember some find this, click that puzzles… “in the way” of the cutscene.

 

(And yes, I’d much prefer an interactive movie, sort of a choose your own adventure type, but those in the genre I like are few and far between).

 

Fourth = Neverwinter Nights

 

Going faster now. I cared about what happened to Aribeth. I loved the conversations especially those I could influence having a lot of diplomacy (? was it? whatever the skill was). Couldn’t care less about the gameplay, though it wasn’t as painful a gameplay as Wing Commander (for me… btw add a “for me” to any comments… should go without saying)

 

Fifth = Baldur’s Gate Franchise

 

One of the goals you can take is you can become immortal, and not “I want to be a normal human being with normal problems…” (God, I’m SOOOO sick of those stories…). There was gameplay?

 

Sixth+ = KOTOR-1, KOTOR-2, Wing Commander Privateer 2, Wing Commander Prophecy, etc…

 

Same as above.

 

Did I like Diablo, Diablo 2, etc… ? Sure. There is a place for gameplay stuff in my repertoire. But that’s for when I have 20 min to kill, so I run around, kill things, get drops, and hope for exp / upgrades. Those games are my version of Tetris. Play to decompress for 15-20 min. Then stop, forget about it, and do something else.

 

Now TOR…

 

Obviously, if I have to be reasonable, of course, mix story, gameplay, and every other aspect of a game I’m no expert on, and doing it balanced, would be great.

 

Thing is, game companies have limited resources. They have to pick and choose. If I can have story, and you can have gameplay, great. But if it’s either-or, I’ll pick story / cutscenes, etc… and they don’t have to be great for me to like them. I liked the Highlander franchise. That should tell you all you need to know, story wise. (Well, ok, even I didn’t like Highlander 2… I’m still human… so far…sigh…). And, since I don’t know any company that isn’t under a “crunch”, I’ll be honest enough to say I want “the other guy’s stuff” to be dropped. Especially since this game was advertised as story based. Note, I’m here, and not in Guild Wars 2, where the gameplay (I’m told) will be great, great PVP, great PVE, but I don’t see my cartoon Jedi dude being a Jedi during cutscenes.

 

Now, here is the biased part, and I just could be uninformed… but there seems to be tons of gameplay games out there. There is very few to none when it comes to interactive movies. There is only a bit more when it comes to heavy story based games. So, speaking personally, I feel like I’m defending the only greasy spoon burger joint in a city full of high quality pizza places. You can BET I’ll rant and scream for the only I have where I enjoy the food.

 

Or, in specifics…

 

I’d pay $200 for the single player game “Wing Commander 5” done as per WC-3 and WC-4, but isn’t a semi-reboot like WC Prophecy was. That’s right, $200. So TOR’s price of $60 + $15/M would match up at the 10 month mark ish.

 

Considering I’ll play TOR far longer than I played WC3, that’s a good deal for me. If they can get everyone’s features, gameplay, content, endgame, PVP up, awesome. But, if, they have to pick… I hope they pick mine.

 

Also, I like the potential of the MMO format because, you can play the same character, throughout the whole experience. The problem even with SW like games, like KOTOR-1 and 2, Force Unleashed-1 and 2, NWN -1 and -2, is that, you either play a whole…new…level…ONE!!!!… character all over again, or, like in FU, you get “reset”…

 

But yeah, TOR, the interactive movie, with live actors, and just 2 choices per cutscene… would be a great game for me. I don’t remember a single gameplay thing I totally enjoyed among most games I’ve played. I repeat some Tetris-like stuff, like Diablo-2, to grind gear exp for 20 min until supper, or whatever, but I’m here for the stories, which are “good enough” for me. They aren’t Shakespeare / LOTR stories, but, that’s fine for me.

 

And finally, I like cutscenes because things can happen in them, that often, you just can’t get in gameplay. At one point, in TOR, in Tatooine, I was shot at from a cap ship from orbit. Though, I suppose, it’s POSSIBLE that will be in gameplay some day, realistically, that cutscene onlu material.

 

TL;DR = Almost all the games I loved, I loved for the story/cutscenes. I couldn’t care less about gameplay. I’d be ok if gameplay was improved in any game, as long as it’s not at the expense of story. But, if you make it either-or, give me story/cutscenes any day. It’s why I’m here. And I'm ok with the quality of stories in TOR.

 

I actually think I can understand your point of view.

 

Interesting.

 

 

I remember loving "wing commander" (1) on my DOS computer (think it was called a 386) when I was a kid... even had a joystick. different things would happen every time. Even if I just ejected I would progess further in the story and some cool stuff would happen(even crazier in my 8 year old mind or however old I was, cat people actually creeped me out).

 

The main thing I enjoyed was PEW PEWing ships using a joystick and it seemed so realistic. Lots of cool NPCs to talk too and a little training thing...NOSTALGIA OVERLOAD AGAIN >_<

 

EDIT: definitely TLDR.... BALDURS GATE! yea that game kicked ***... I can hear it now "you must gather your party before venturing forth"... Crazy guy with painted face and hamster on his shoulder. I never did beat it though. I was too young when I played all these games so I sucked at games... I remember being genuinely effected when one of the characters was killed, even if I could get them rezzed... Good voiceovers.

Edited March 4, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[KurleyKilla]

There was a story in between the softcore **** scenes? Shocking.

 

haha there was indeed.

 

Gotta love ***** though comon

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[DalrisThane]

Deleted. No point. Everyone is TLDR these days. +See Sig. Edited March 31, 2013 by DalrisThane

[KurleyKilla]

Thanks. I’ll admit there’s probably a lot of nostalgia in my memories as well.

 

I was SOOO upset when my WC3 disc actually cracked from overheating when I tried to get the cutscene from the "fail" path, but you hold the line, and survive, fighting over Earth, constant fighting with no support, for 2 real life hours, and you get a (mixing shows here) a "Battle of the Line from Babylon 5" ending where they actually leave the Earth alone because you killed so many of them.

 

My disc actually warped, then cracked as soon as I lifted it off the CD, that's how many times, and how long, I tried for that ending....

 

That's *********** awesome.

[Dayfax]

Great thread, OP.

 

You might want to check out Dave Jaffe's talk from DICE this year. In it, he talks about story's place in gaming & the overuse of cinematics in games:

 

 

Warning: Watching this may kill an appreciation for what Bioware used to do well.

 

As for your original question -- my main issue with SWTOR is that the rest of the experience, outside the cinematics, is so shoddy.

 

If they had superb level design, environments, mob AI, and combat -- or, actually any one of those things -- then I'd be a lot more forgiving when it came to the repetitiveness of the cinematics.

[lokivoid]

Then again, I'm someone who loved the Xenosaga series

 

Xenosaga's story was terrible. It was a halfassed attempt at remaking xenogears.

[Valketh]

For me personally, gameplay has to at least equal to the story/cinematics. If 90% of my time is actually playing the game then I'd rather have that percentage of my time optimized. For TOR I'm just about there. Most major bugs have been wacked and the UI is a work in progress but some has been made, notably ability delays which were horrendous (yet still not optimum).

 

I can't believe no one has mentioned the original Resident Evil on PS1. For me, I have not yet felt the chills that I did playing that game in dark room at night. I don't know if this relates to the OP's topic but for story/gameplay...kudos to the original Resident Evil.

[KurleyKilla]

I can't believe no one has mentioned the original Resident Evil on PS1. For me, I have not yet felt the chills that I did playing that game in dark room at night. I don't know if this relates to the OP's topic but for story/gameplay...kudos to the original Resident Evil.

 

My first experience with the RE series was renting Resident Evil 2 on the playstation. (I forget how old I was, pretty young)

 

No joke, It scared me a lot actually and I Would get too stressed out to play for very long. (non stop feeling of *** is gonna happen next) Was a 3 day rental, I would be surprised If I played more then a few hours. Hard game lol

Edited March 4, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[KurleyKilla]

You might want to check out Dave Jaffe's talk from DICE this year. In it, he talks about story's place in gaming & the overuse of cinematics in games:

 

 

Warning: Watching this may kill an appreciation for what Bioware used to do well.

 

 

Very interesting little speech there.

 

He is almost in direct opposition to the way SWTOR is laid out. One of the youtube comments actually says "likes SWTOR ;)" haha.

[Fiachsidhe]

I will preface all this by saying... this is not a troll... this is just me expressing a thought. Please only respond if you actually read this post in it's entirety.

 

 

To be specific, you're expressing a logical fallacy, meant to incite an argument.

 

No one said the story was good, because it is voiced. It's simply more enjoyable with the voice acting.

[KurleyKilla]

To be specific, you're expressing a logical fallacy, meant to incite an argument.

 

No one said the story was good, because it is voiced. It's simply more enjoyable with the voice acting.

 

Well it seems to me like the main positive argument point for people talking about SWTOR in the context of it's quest storylines is the fact that it is told with Full V/O and Cutscenes.

 

IMO If people where forced to read these same storylines they could not ignore the badness. Instead we can just sit and watch it like a movie. Even bad movies can be at least "watchable" but when playing an MMO for so many hours. The smokescreen fades soon enough.

Edited March 4, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[Fiachsidhe]

Well it seems to me like the main positive argument point for people talking about SWTOR in the context of it's quest storylines is the fact that it is told with Full V/O and Cutscenes.

 

IMO If people where forced to read these same storylines they could not ignore the badness. Instead we can just sit and watch it like a movie. Even bad movies can be at least "watchable" but when playing an MMO for so many hours. The smokescreen fades soon enough.

 

Which means nothing as to quality. If I read you A Tale of Two Cities in sign language and then in spoken word, does the story become less poignant?

 

What smoke screen? So you don't like the story? Who cares? Then don't listen to it? It's a *********** Star Wars MMORPG. What the **** do you really expect? Oscar worthy performances of Academy Award winning scripts?

 

This game provides stories head and shoulders above any other mmorpg on the market. 700,000+ lines of dialogue. If your complaint is that this game's narrative, ain't as good as the New York Times best seller you're reading, you're a gosh darn fool.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Fiachsidhe

[Vecke]

Yea the thing is, I am only comparing it to Video Games and it really doesn't do that well >_<

 

Games I have played that produced an emotional effect in me, or made me remember the story long term include:

 

Witcher 2

Deus Ex Human Revolution

Diablo 1 and 2

Starcraft had an engaging story... in a genre not known for such things.

Portal 1 and 2 although short, had me living the story the entire time.

Half-life 2

Legend of dragoon

Final Fantasy 7-8-9

Kingdom hearts 1

 

I could go on and on. And while granted, all these games are from a different genre.

 

SWTOR is presented in such a way that it is more comparable to a regular RPG experience then any other MMO IMO.

 

That is the main thing for me... When I put it next some of the greatest story experiences I have had in gaming it simply pales in comparison. Even though by all accounts, story was the main focus of SWTOR.

 

I think you might be confusing your emotional reaction to the story with the actual quality of the story on those games.

 

When I started gaming (back in the gaming stone age), story basically amounted to "Rescue the princess from that barrel-throwing gorilla!"

 

Then, with the NES, it was a little more prevalent, in the form of a still shot with scrolling text underneath that came between levels.

 

The first game that truly immersed me in story was Resident Evil on the PS 1. I was completely overwhelmed by the feeling that I was in that mansion. The other characters were in there with me. When a cinematic took place, it was because I entered a room, not because I finished a level.

 

The story in that game forever changed the way I looked at gaming. I was emotionally involved. Escaping that mansion meant something to me.

 

Recently, I went back to play it again.

 

The story is horrifyingly awful.

 

I think there will be several people playing TOR that will use it as the standard in exactly the way you're using the games listed above. It's really more about where you are as a gamer.

 

There are a few exceptions, of course. A few games are just so incredibly great that it's impossible to ignore the power of the story.

 

But usually, it's more about the gamer than the game.

[kaboro]

I think that in the specific case of SWTOR, the cinematics are a bad thing.

Its much easier to accept bad dialogues in text form than in cinematic form.

I have experienced bad dialogues/stories in all mmos but it didnt bother me because it was in text form.

The voice acting and wannabe realism in swtor makes the stupidity of the dialogue unbearable, when it would be perfectly acceptable in text form.

[KurleyKilla]

Which means nothing as to quality. If I read you A Tale of Two Cities in sign language and then in spoken word, does the story become less poignant?

 

What smoke screen? So you don't like the story? Who cares? Then don't listen to it? It's a *********** Star Wars MMORPG. What the **** do you really expect? Oscar worthy performances of Academy Award winning scripts?

 

This game provides stories head and shoulders above any other mmorpg on the market, but if your complaint is that this game's narrative, ain't as good as the New York Times best seller you're reading, you're a gosh darn fool.

 

Nah I am complaining that the stories narrative isn't as good as well... almost any RPG I have ever played.

 

I do like story.

 

Who cares? I dunno, not you?

 

I had 0 expectations going into this game other then a Star Wars themed WoW Clone.

 

But stories comparable to those I have experienced elsewhere in GAMES would be just wonderful. ESPECIALLY.. If that is the MAIN point about your game.

 

No one said **** about the New York Times.

 

One good point many people have made though is that whether or not a story is good, is just a subjective opinion.

 

Basically you don't seem to think much of the story either, but that's ok with you. It is just better then any other MMO you have played.

 

Although once again that is just a subjective opinion...

 

You are spazzing out for no reason. Crazypants.

 

Edit: The smokescreen is having an NPC speak out loud, with very unrealistic animations. Throw in some canned responses (Good,Bad, Useless middle one?) but in the end. Giving me the EXACT same kind of quests one would expect in any MMO.

Edited March 4, 2012 by KurleyKilla

[LogicalPremise]

To be specific, you're expressing a logical fallacy, meant to incite an argument.

 

No one said the story was good, because it is voiced. It's simply more enjoyable with the voice acting.

 

To be specific, you are voicing a lie, meant to deconstruct someone's argument based on a false premise.

 

Not only have people on this forum stated that the story is good SOLELY because of the voice over (i.e., "if it was text it would just be boring") , they have actually made the argument that the story is superior due to the voice acting to other better written or conceived stories.

 

I think the biggest problem with the current mess of voiceovers is that their quality is in novelty not quality. In a single player game they would be of good but not great quality. In an MMORPG people are "OMG VO STORY OMG OMG".

 

Perspective would be nice.

[Terko_Koslah]

Some how I haven't felt really engaged by any class stories, my opinion is that they are poorly written. This can happen sometimes. I was looking for a branching story line. Well you don't always get what you want.

 

But I do love the cinematics and there's so many applications for the answer wheel and I don't feel they have really used it to it's prime. You could also make a whole game using just the answer wheel.

[Fiachsidhe]

Nah I am complaining that the stories narrative isn't as good as well... almost any RPG I have ever played.

 

I do like story.

 

Who cares? I dunno, not you?

 

I had 0 expectations going into this game other then a Star Wars themed WoW Clone.

 

But stories comparable to those I have experienced elsewhere in GAMES would be just wonderful. ESPECIALLY.. If that is the MAIN point about your game.

 

No one said **** about the New York Times.

 

One good point many people have made though is that whether or not a story is good, is just a subjective opinion.

 

Basically you don't seem to think much of the story either, but that's ok with you. It is just better then any other MMO you have played.

 

Although once again that is just a subjective opinion...

 

You are spazzing out for no reason. Crazypants.

 

Edit: The smokescreen is having an NPC speak out loud, with very unrealistic animations. Throw in some canned responses (Good,Bad, Useless middle one?) but in the end. Giving me the EXACT same kind of quests one would expect in any MMO.

 

Oh congratulations on having played games with better stories! I've played tons of games stories better than this one. Again so friggin what? Just because A is better than B doesn't make B bad.

 

You like story, logical fallacy. So do I.

 

So basically, you came in expecting a WoW clone and yet you're complaining about the story. Nice job.

 

Stories comparable to WHICH games? What do you mean by comparable? The quality of prose? Single player games? MMMORPGs? Because I've played games that have way worse stories than my Jedi Knight, so I guess that makes this game's story the best ever! Seeing as you you're deriding it due to the all the games you're cherry picking to make it look worse.

 

The New York Times thing.....really?

 

Subjective EXACTLY. Though the smart ones, will judge a story on its own merits, rather than how much it stacks up to your favorite other game. That's what good critics do, they critique the story in front of them, not compare it to their favorites, seeing if the story can beat their own invisible high score for quality.

 

Actually, I like the story. I enjoyed my story, for what it was. I didn't sit around comparing it to Chrono Trigger or Ghostbusters 2 to Caddyshack.

 

How exactly am I spazzing out? Because I'm not sugar coating my words to your weak opinions?

 

EDIT: That makes so little sense and has so little to do with the argument, I can't even begin to address it. Aside from he fact that you're a liar.

 

I've had numerous chain quests change depending on my choices. I've played to 50 with my friend who played the exact class I did only he went dark side. We had numerous followup quests change completely.

 

Also

my entire story on Balmora included previous fallen jedi that I redeemed, each one adapting differently to their new lives as jedi, at the end my unit came back with zero casualties, where my friend's came back with heavy.

 

Edited March 4, 2012 by Fiachsidhe

[Fiachsidhe]

To be specific, you are voicing a lie, meant to deconstruct someone's argument based on a false premise.

 

Not only have people on this forum stated that the story is good SOLELY because of the voice over (i.e., "if it was text it would just be boring") , they have actually made the argument that the story is superior due to the voice acting to other better written or conceived stories.

 

I think the biggest problem with the current mess of voiceovers is that their quality is in novelty not quality. In a single player game they would be of good but not great quality. In an MMORPG people are "OMG VO STORY OMG OMG".

 

Perspective would be nice.

 

Liar...heh that's cute.

 

Saying the story would be boring is not the same as saying it'd be bad. Dune is a great film, and yet it's boring as piss. "If it were text it would be boring", may or may not have anything to do with that persons' views on story quality, and more to do with how little they personally care to read.

 

You applying your own interpretation makes you just as disingenuous as you claim I'm being.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Fiachsidhe

[Dayfax]

Dune is a great film, and yet it's boring as piss.

 

o.O

 

wat

 

Despite your strange interpretation of the English language, if someone describes any experience as boring, they mean that, yes, it is bad.

 

"Hey, how was your date last night?"

"Great! I had a wonderful time. It was so boring!"