No more color restrictions on crystals ?! Really ?

[VanorDM]

Restrict by class (this follows lore and the traditions in this time period) then.

 

Traditions yes, but traditions don't mean something else can't or doesn't happen.

 

Sure most Jedi will likely use blue or green crystals. Most likely because those seem to be present on Typhon, and other colors don't. I don't imagine many Jedi have as many sabers sitting in their cargo hold as I do, or have ever sold one to a vendor for credits...

 

So it's likely they'll stick with the same saber they made as part of their trials, for some time. Even if they do replace it, they'll likely replace it with the same type of crystal that they used the first time, just because it would be simple.

 

That said, none of that really is the same as a hard and fast rule, that everyone must follow. Unless someone can find something that supports removing the option, it should be just that, an option.

[Vecke]

I'm pretty disappointed as well. What's the point of being darkside if everyone who's lightside can use red sabers? If you absolutely HAD to change things why didn't you at least just keep red for darkside only and blue/green for lightside only. I'm not sure if there is any lore that restricts red sabers to only darkside or vice versa for blue/green, but it's just generally accepted. Stating that lore doesn't restrict red to darkside is like saying that everyone should now know that the deathstar was actually a cube rather than a sphere, because lore didn't strictly explain the means of having it shaped as a sphere. Whether the lore states it or not, when you say Deathstar to someone, the image that they think of is a spherical space station, and when you say dark side lightsaber people imagine a red blade.

 

Either way i really dont care, stats are most important; that's just my two cents.

 

But the LS/DS restriction made it impossible for hundreds of Sith in this game to use a red lightsaber. The LS/DS worked against what you want to see, not for it.

 

Removing the restriction now makes it possible for many Sith players to use a red lightsaber. If your point is that Sith should use red lightsabers, why are you disappointed that they removed a restriction that made it literally impossible for many, many Sith players to use a red saber?

 

The problem lies in the idea that - in the movies - the Sith are the bad guys. So everybody equates red with the Sith and the Sith with evil.

 

In this game, the Sith aren't evil. You can play a good Sith. Which complicates the "lore" issue tremendously.

 

But any way you look at it, there is no lore in the movies or the books that say it's physically impossible for a sith to use a red saber.

Edited March 7, 2012 by Vecke

[Elkard]

Apparently, you're not much of a Star Wars fan.

 

Color has-never-been-nor-will-it-ever-be restricted to morality. Lucas himself has confirmed that there is no direct link. The only lore basis for the restrictions was that, in the time of TPM, AotC etc., Sith couldn't get their hands on natural crystal supplies, and had to use synthetic crystals. Synth crystals (Luke used a synth crystal in RotJ, too, btw) are created by channeling the force through a forge. In the case of darksiders, this creates a crimson-red crystal... but not all synth crystals are red -- nor are all the sabers of Sith red. Certainly, the fact that the Sith in the TOR timeline favor purple just as much as red is proof of this.

 

Frankly, the limits in TOR make absolutely no sense as implemented in the game. They neither preserve the 'look' of the films, nor do they have any basis in the lore. You would argue that color is tied to morality as if picking up a green or a blue saber as a darksider would cause it to explode in my hand. Even in the films, time and again we are shown that darksiders can use 'light' colors (Anakin/Vader with blue throughout Ep. III, Vader ignited Luke's green saber in Ep. VI). Similarly, lightsiders can use red... as in the case of Anakin picking up Dooku's saber to finish him off with.

 

***

 

HI THAR. MY NAME IZ EXAR KUN, ONE OF THE MOST BAD-*** SITH LORDS OF ALL TIMES (YOU CAN TELL SINC I USE ALL CAPS TO POST). I'D JUS LIK 2 JUMP IN HERE AND POINT OUT DAT I USED A BLUE SABRE. TY. DATS ALL I WANTED. <3 TO MY HOMIES IN EMPIR.

 

***

 

Thanks, Exar.

 

Getting back on topic, the simple fact of the matter is, there is no canonical basis or otherwise for the current crystal restrictions. They were, quite literally, something Bioware conjured out of thin air. And, what's worse, they don't even preserve the look of the films, instead forcing many Jedi to abandon green/blue, and many Sith to forsake red. If you wanted to see more Sith using red, and more Jedi using green/blue as in the films, you should actually support dropping the restrictions.

 

As it stands now, I believe you simply don't understand either the lore or the system we've got in game.

 

--------------------------------

 

Just wanted to tack this on from later in the thread. This is how TOR's current restrictions would look if applied to Star Wars.

 

*I take you now to the famous Temple Slaughter scene from Ep. III. Anakin is boldly walking up the Jedi Temple stairs, flanked by an army of clone troopers. He approaches the door, reaches into his robes, pulls out his blue saber, and prepares to ignite it when...

 

... nothing happens?*

 

Clone trooper #1: Ruh-roh!

 

Clone trooper #3: He's got er... troubles 'getting it up,' I guess?

 

Clone trooper #1: Man, that's gotta create some tension in the sack with him and Padmomma or whatever.

 

Clone trooper #2: Hehe... be quiet, I want to hear this.

 

[Anakin COMM] Master, I have run into some issues.

 

*The clones snicker.*

 

[sidious COMM] What is it, my young apprentice? Are the Jedi dead? Is the temple aflame?

 

[Anakin COMM] No, master my... lightsaber won't turn on.

 

*More clone laughter.*

 

[sidious COMM] Oh, I forgot to tell you. You can't use that lightsaber anymore because you're a bad guy now. Big oopsies on my part. Come back to my office and I'll give you a red crystal.

 

*Anakin leaves in a huff.*

 

Clone trooper #1: Ciggy break! AFK!

 

Clone trooper #2: Hehe... stupid sith.

 

Clone trooper #3: Shut up, dude... any more darkside points and you won't be able to use that blaster anymore.

 

/applause

[DarthKhaos]

Because players already complain that every class has the same abilities, now that will ring even more true. Why play a sorcerer? when you can be a force lightning using bounty hunter?

 

It's not that the lore allows for it but rather it messes with class mechanics, in my opinion each class should be distincitive & unique in it's own way. But this will just make every class the same as each other, no uniqueness.

 

When Blizz introduced class similarities, everyone with a res & an interrupt & CC there was an uproar. Becuase classes stopped being unique, in Swtor too many classes share similar abilities and this will just make it worse.

This has to be the dumbest thing I heard.

Firstly to unlock said force lightening on your bounty hunter you have to first level an inquisitor then have it a parent or at least sibling of your BH.

 

Secondly A once every 20min cooldown ability really messes with the game mechanic. Also you need to understand the classes were designed with this feature in mind.

 

Third they are not homogenizing the classes. I mean come on.

[Zack_Fair]

Those were all ex-Jedi. Sith lightsabers are red in every single installment from the movies to the comics and books. Exar Kun kept his Jedi lightsaber as a mockery of his previous allegiance, Vader didn't have time to build a new one during the ending of Revenge Sarris wasn't Sith not even Jerec was. Adi Gallia's saber is blue, it's seem on Clone Wars. It's pinkish red in a certain game but that was a mistake. Closest I've seem is Sharad Hett with a pink Lightsaber, so yeah the wrong thing was not restricting it by factions and only to force users.

 

It doesn't matter though, there is no magical restrictions on Force Users. Also http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Adi_Gallia If you look at ALL The pictures going down the beginning, red lightsaber. Maybe they changed it to blue later, but it was still red at one point. "She originally chose an unusual color lightsaber crystal to power her blade, a red stone that had strong association with the Dark Lords of the Sith and their weapons. Following the return of the Sith and the rising tensions in the Galactic Senate, Master Gallia replaced the red crystal in her saber's hilt with a traditional blue crystal, one associated with the Jedi Guardians." My point is, the restriction in the game makes no sense and has no place in the lore. There isn't some magic thing that makes their sabers not work. Glad its gone.

[DarkSirius]

Sorry, I didn't see where George Lucas says hello in that fail link. As your comprehension of my point failed, I will restate it: I'd very much like to see evidence that GEORGE LUCAS says it doesn't matter.

 

so yeah, fail link is fail.

 

Most of the SW lore comes from the published books... the 120+ of them, not just the movies. Before all of those books were allowed to be published, Lucas required the authors to let him read the books and sign off on them to make sure the lore and the stories were authentic.

[WhoTookMyName]

I'm a good guy republic middle of teh road on the whole good bad choice thing and I have had Red light sabers since I started playing. (Like a month ago).

 

Why is everyone acting like this is new?

[Eommer]

(sorry about my english)

 

Why people are crying so much about this? I mean, before this update a Jedi could choose be DarkSide and use a red crystal and still carry the Jedi Order name. Same with Sith. You could be a lightside Sith using a blue crystal and travel the galaxy throwing lights (pretty much a darkside skill only) on people? imho, thats way more weird then a simple color crystal.

 

If we are going to cry about this change I think we need go waaaay back and change this too because something is wrong. In my point of view, nothing change drastically. Before this update I was already seeing Siths running around with blue lightsabers. tho, THAT bugs me alot. this new one is kind the same concept, nothing really changed.

 

Serious, think again about the real problem...

 

I said this before and I will say again. Lightsaber is just a weapon. Of course, weapons and the way they look becomes a icon. If you see a samurai you automatically assume he will be using a katana. a katana is natural for him, because his master has one and he has more access to a katana then a European sword. I think is that how the Sith/Jedi works. When you become a Padawan at some point your master will teach to forge or give a lightsaber to you. He and you as padawan has more access to a katana or european sword? i think most of jedis does not even know how to build a red crystal, so of course he will teach his padawan to use a green/blue.

 

ihmo, the colors have more to do with tradition, training, access to materials and how to use them then alignment itself.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Eommer

[Eommer]

I'm a good guy republic middle of teh road on the whole good bad choice thing and I have had Red light sabers since I started playing. (Like a month ago).

 

Why is everyone acting like this is new?

 

thats exactly what I tried to say with my bad english above.

[Siorac]

What I would like to know if it's a bug that Soa in normal mode dropped this: http://www.torhead.com/item/f25wOEi/hatred with a Red colour crystal for me - and I could use it as a Light V Jedi. It was weeks ago, before the latest patch.

[Sernon]

Without restrictions there is no system. No system represents chaos. Left with chaos you will never be offered a vision. And without a vision there is only darkness.

 

---

[GrimAce]

I really don't see this as that big of a deal, but okay.

 

Who knows? Maybe with this out of the way BW will start to look into more alignment based gear for the LS/DS vendors to make alignments more beneficial. At least all of the grays have stopped whining about how they're ripped off, at least momentarily.

[DarthRavnos]

While that was all interesting, none of it addressed the specific point that I disputed: the claim that Jedi were FORBIDDEN to use red lightsabers. I'm well aware of the production reasons for the colors, as well as the tradition that's arisen around them. I don't however know of any lore to support the claim that either the Jedi or Sith orders had explicit rules about lightsaber colors. Traditions, sure. Averages, sure. Explicit rules? Not that I know of. I'd like to see a source if someone claims such rules existed.

 

There's a throwaway line in one quote that suggests that Jedi were discouraged from using red lightsabers, but discouraging is not the same as forbidding.

 

Yes, as I stated. He/she isn't completely wrong. But that implies they are not completely correct.

 

There is nothing physically or through the force preventing a member of the Jedi to insert a synthetic red crystal into their lightsaber. The argument on this change is a debate on tradition. Not game mechanics. A red lightsaber, however, during this era is a symbol of the Sith. While it probably should not be restricted to Dark Siders only, it probably should be restricted to certain classes.

 

Sith Inquisitor, Sith Warrior, Imperial Agent, Bounty Hunter, Trooper, Smuggler ... for example.

 

And, maybe the other colors have their own unique rules that help bridge the gap between traditions in the Star Wars lore and correcting the mistake of Light Side / Dark Side restrictions that had been implemented.

[zrinking]

General Grievous used multiple colors.

 

Darth Vader used his same lightsaber as a jedi until he was beaten by Obi wan and Obi wan took it.

[DMSL]

General Grievous used multiple colors.

 

Darth Vader used his same lightsaber as a jedi until he was beaten by Obi wan and Obi wan took it.

 

General Grievous is not a Force user so that is not a valid argument here.

 

Darth Vader did not have the time to construct a new lightsaber until after he was operated on by Sidious' droids and got encased in his black armor. He then crafted a RED lightsaber. So that argument is as empty as the previous one.

 

Lightsaber colours are not based on alignment but on faction. If you are part of the Jedi Order, whether you are a good guy (light side) or secretively a bad mofo (dark side) the Jedi Order forbids the usage of red lightsabers as that colour is associated with the Sith culture. If you are a Sith you would use a red lightsaber as that is the typical colour used. Of course there are other lightsaber colours, but it makes sense when it comes to lore to restrict colours in SWTOR. I think it would be good to make green and blue exclusive to Jedi Knight and Jedi Consulars and red and perhaps orange to Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor classes. The other colours do not have to be restricted. If you bind it to classes alignment should not be a problem.

 

When it comes to non-Force users however there don't need to be restrictions because they are not part of the Jedi or Sith Order.

[DarthRavnos]

General Grievous is not a Force user so that is not a valid argument here.

 

Darth Vader did not have the time to construct a new lightsaber until after he was operated on by Sidious' droids and got encased in his black armor. He then crafted a RED lightsaber. So that argument is as empty as the previous one.

 

Lightsaber colours are not based on alignment but on faction. If you are part of the Jedi Order, whether you are a good guy (light side) or secretively a bad mofo (dark side) the Jedi Order forbids the usage of red lightsabers as that colour is associated with the Sith culture. If you are a Sith you would use a red lightsaber as that is the typical colour used. Of course there are other lightsaber colours, but it makes sense when it comes to lore to restrict colours in SWTOR. I think it would be good to make green and blue exclusive to Jedi Knight and Jedi Consulars and red and perhaps orange to Sith Warrior and Sith Inquisitor classes. The other colours do not have to be restricted. If you bind it to classes alignment should not be a problem.

 

When it comes to non-Force users however there don't need to be restrictions because they are not part of the Jedi or Sith Order.

 

It would appear that only a handful of people playing this game are in the gene pool associated with actual knowledge of the background lore. They are so hung up on Dark Side and Light Side restrictions that they are missing the point.

 

The point being, Light Side and Dark Side be damned. A red lightsaber is a symbol of the Sith during this time. And the Jedi Council disapproves of the Jedi wielding that color. Yes, remove the LS / DS restrictions but... something should be implemented to filter red as the color of the Sith.

 

Your breath is wasted on deaf ears I think as was mine. I guess the kids will go play colored laser sticks and BioWare will just crap all over the Star Wars lore. It is what it is I guess.

 

I'm not going to post anymore on these forums since BioWare isn't listening anyway.

[Eommer]

Your breath is wasted on deaf ears I think as was mine. I guess the kids will go play colored laser sticks and BioWare will just crap all over the Star Wars lore. It is what it is I guess.

 

I'm not going to post anymore on these forums since BioWare isn't listening anyway.

 

dude, a Jedi could be DarkSide and use a red crystal before this update...

Same with a Sith using blue crystals. nothing really change here...

[Caelc]

Nowhere do they say there will be no color restrictions on crystals. Now sure why people keep saying that.

 

They are just adjusting some of the colours.

[VanorDM]

the Jedi Order forbids the usage of red lightsabers as that colour is associated with the Sith culture.

 

No they don't. They may discourage it, but they don't forbid it. There is nothing in the lore that states a given crystal must be, or only is used by a given type of Jedi/Sith. The restrictions they put in made no sense in regards to the lore.

 

In fact they effectively broke the existing lore, because you had Sith who could not use red, and Jedi who could not use blue or green.

[Tenacity]

General Grievous is not a Force user so that is not a valid argument here.

 

Yet non force-users are still limited to color crystals based on alignment in this game. Hell, non force-users are even affected by darkside corruption.

 

[Kindara]

It would appear that only a handful of people playing this game are in the gene pool associated with actual knowledge of the background lore. They are so hung up on Dark Side and Light Side restrictions that they are missing the point.

 

The point being, Light Side and Dark Side be damned. A red lightsaber is a symbol of the Sith during this time. And the Jedi Council disapproves of the Jedi wielding that color. Yes, remove the LS / DS restrictions but... something should be implemented to filter red as the color of the Sith.

 

Your breath is wasted on deaf ears I think as was mine. I guess the kids will go play colored laser sticks and BioWare will just crap all over the Star Wars lore. It is what it is I guess.

 

I'm not going to post anymore on these forums since BioWare isn't listening anyway.

 

Fail

 

Jedi frowned on the use of Synthetic Crystals which due to the processing were often RED. There is no lore that forbids either side from using the color of crystal they want.

 

You've got Jedi and Sith traveling all over the place if something happens to their saber they may not wai tuntil they can find X color they're going to go for what they can find or create.

 

Korrban is not a natural source for crystal but once you leave Korriban there is nothing from stopping you changing or modifying your lightsaber since its YOUR lighstaber.

 

As a Bounty Hunter its ridiculous I was being locked into red or yellow because I happen to be on the Empirial side. If i blast a jedi and take his saber's crystal I should have every damn right to use it.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Kindara

[Balrizangor]

Just wanted to tack this on from later in the thread. This is how TOR's current restrictions would look if applied to Star Wars.

 

*I take you now to the famous Temple Slaughter scene from Ep. III. Anakin is boldly walking up the Jedi Temple stairs, flanked by an army of clone troopers. He approaches the door, reaches into his robes, pulls out his blue saber, and prepares to ignite it when...

 

... nothing happens?*

 

Clone trooper #1: Ruh-roh!

 

Clone trooper #3: He's got er... troubles 'getting it up,' I guess?

 

Clone trooper #1: Man, that's gotta create some tension in the sack with him and Padmomma or whatever.

 

Clone trooper #2: Hehe... be quiet, I want to hear this.

 

[Anakin COMM] Master, I have run into some issues.

 

*The clones snicker.*

 

[sidious COMM] What is it, my young apprentice? Are the Jedi dead? Is the temple aflame?

 

[Anakin COMM] No, master my... lightsaber won't turn on.

 

*More clone laughter.*

 

[sidious COMM] Oh, I forgot to tell you. You can't use that lightsaber anymore because you're a bad guy now. Big oopsies on my part. Come back to my office and I'll give you a red crystal.

 

*Anakin leaves in a huff.*

 

Clone trooper #1: Ciggy break! AFK!

 

Clone trooper #2: Hehe... stupid sith.

 

Clone trooper #3: Shut up, dude... any more darkside points and you won't be able to use that blaster anymore.

 

I almost spit my coffee everywhere =P

[Bobinator]

I dont recall color having anything to do with you standing on the force side...

 

Exar Kun was a sith and he used I believe was blue?

 

SO YEAH lightsaber color doesnt matter...anyone can use a color they want.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Bobinator

[Eommer]

Darth Vader did not have the time to construct a new lightsaber until after he was operated on by Sidious' droids and got encased in his black armor. He then crafted a RED lightsaber. So that argument is as empty as the previous one.

 

explain to me how the heck the game will know that I just turn to the darkside and I didnt have time to craft my new red lightsaber so because that I can still use my blue one...

 

Imagine that I have +50 points with lightside and Im using a blue crystal. Exactly like Anakin. Now I just answer something really really bad and gain -100 with darkside and my fight will start right after that.

 

Now, I will be able to use my old blue lightsaber because I didnt have time to craft a new one or I will just sit there waiting my enemy kill me because my lightsaber just dont magically turnon anymore?

[Raeln]

explain to me how the heck the game will know that I just turn to the darkside and I didnt have time to craft my new red lightsaber so because that I can still use my blue one...

 

Imagine that I have +50 points with lightside and Im using a blue crystal. Exactly like Anakin. Now I just answer something really really bad and gain -100 with darkside and my fight will start right after that.

 

Now, I will be able to use my old blue lightsaber because I didnt have time to craft a new one or I will just sit there waiting my enemy kill me because my lightsaber just dont magically turnon anymore?

 

From a game perspective, the color of the crystal in the weapon has been irrelevant. Even if you were light V and looted a gun/saber with no alignment requirement that had a red crystal, you could equip and use the weapon. I have used several assault cannons while leveling my trooper that came with red crystals, no alignment requirement to equip and

 

You could remove the crystal but you could not put it back in.

 

Now - in reference to Anakin in the Temple, slaughtering children. I don't care who you are, slaughter innocent children should be an automatic Dark IV, if not Dark V. It is almost universally (in nearly every intellectual property ever devised) a war crime to do so. That alone should have prevented Anakin from wielding that blue saber if any such restrictions were in place.

 

I think we all know that there is no actual restriction within the crystal that keeps a Jedi/Sith of any alignment from utilizing the weapon though. It is purely a social convention and should be roleplayed as such. If you are a Jedi and believe red crystals belong to the Sith, then ostracize your fellow Jedi roleplayers that go dark and use red crystals.

 

It is beyond ridiculous though to have crystal alignments apply to non-force users. Most ignorant concept ever to have guns that have a light or dark requirement to use. I might could buy it if it was firing projectiles like cop killers but I have seen no lore to represent that point.

Edited March 8, 2012 by Raeln