zachbuford Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 I know that many people are hesitant about the idea of a "recount" in swtor, and the majority of the argument is to avoid "WoWifiying: swtor but here are my thoughts on the benefits: -players will know what abilities do how much damage in a real battle, not just numbers on a tool-tip. -players who like to switch specs could directly compare each spec's true dps. -balancing classes will become easier -optimizing a rotation will become easier -encourages experimentation in the talent tree I play as a healer but still think some form of function like this should exist. At the very least the option could be self-view only to prevent the whole "baddie dps" argument. What is everyone else's opinion on the matter? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysico Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 This horse is so dead.. Let the poor pony rest in peace, please.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zachbuford Posted March 1, 2012 Author Share Posted March 1, 2012 This horse is so dead.. Let the poor pony rest in peace, please.. Explain to me why you think that? There are many benefits and very few detriments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysico Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 -players will know what abilities do how much damage in a real battle, not just numbers on a tool-tip. They already know if they care to watch the screen. You can tell pretty easy if one ability hits harder then the other. -players who like to switch specs could directly compare each spec's true dps. They would still have to play both specs for a long period of time, over various situations. Again, by doing that, you can tell what spec is "better" for you. There is a reason why, say, Sents are all Watchman spec. Because, even without the holy power of a meter, players grasp and understand what is best. -balancing classes will become easier So you think Bioware has no data they use behind the scenes to balancing? -optimizing a rotation will become easier Crutch. Again play your class. From an MMO standpoint, this game is pretty darn easy. You can do your rotation without hand holding -encourages experimentation in the talent tree See above. Plus without dropping cost of respecs or a dual spec, folks are not really playing around outside of cookie cutter paths. I would argue THAT is the key. Allowing cheaper or dual spec talents so people can play around more, but also of course, fill more roles in a group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted March 1, 2012 Share Posted March 1, 2012 It doesn't really matter what people feel about it, it will be coming as soon as they put in combat logs. I think they said 1.2 but not positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangenobi Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 -players will know what abilities do how much damage in a real battle, not just numbers on a tool-tip. They already know if they care to watch the screen. You can tell pretty easy if one ability hits harder then the other. -players who like to switch specs could directly compare each spec's true dps. They would still have to play both specs for a long period of time, over various situations. Again, by doing that, you can tell what spec is "better" for you. There is a reason why, say, Sents are all Watchman spec. Because, even without the holy power of a meter, players grasp and understand what is best. -balancing classes will become easier So you think Bioware has no data they use behind the scenes to balancing? -optimizing a rotation will become easier Crutch. Again play your class. From an MMO standpoint, this game is pretty darn easy. You can do your rotation without hand holding -encourages experimentation in the talent tree See above. Plus without dropping cost of respecs or a dual spec, folks are not really playing around outside of cookie cutter paths. I would argue THAT is the key. Allowing cheaper or dual spec talents so people can play around more, but also of course, fill more roles in a group. I disagree completely. Using a recount would not be a crutch, but a benefit. The meter actually provides a benefit. A crutch would be if the meters actually did the dps for you. Allowing meters would help you optimize your rotation to reach higher dps numbers. I don't understand this notion of it being a crutch. To me it will seperate alot of bad players not being playing their class correctly. You know the ones who do 2k dps in a 5-6k dps per PC fight. To those that say "Well then the elitist jerks will take over and make it bad for everyone". Those type of players exist with or without meters so it wouldn't matter anyways. Best to just ignore jerks all together. I'm not calling you an idiot or moron or anything like that just disagreeing with your statement. In the end, however, it's not going to matter anyways dps meters are coming to this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysico Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Based on what? 3 months no meters.. BW been against it. This is not WoW.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Based on what? 3 months no meters.. BW been against it. This is not WoW.. The absence of something does not mean the company is against it. They are giving us combat logs soon, and with those people will create parses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysico Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Based on what? You say it is coming vs all the BW posts it is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humankeg Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Based on what? 3 months no meters.. BW been against it. This is not WoW.. They have repeatedly said that meters is a high priority. Have no idea why they didn't include the one they actually had made though. And being able to tell which players in my raid are holding us back from doing better, and replacing them with better skilled/harder working players is the main reason I want a meter. Btw, a meter is a not a crutch. Mindlessly spamming abilities as they come off cool down is easier than knowing a set rotation and using your abilities to their maximum ability. Edited March 2, 2012 by Humankeg Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tangenobi Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 They have repeatedly said that meters is a high priority. Have no idea why they didn't include the one they actually had made though. And being able to tell which players in my raid are holding us back from doing better, and replacing them with better skilled/harder working players is the main reason I want a meter. Btw, a meter is a not a crutch. Mindlessly spamming abilities as they come off cool down is easier than knowing a set rotation and using your abilities to their maximum ability. /agreed and they have said meters are coming in the dev questions area..A question was asked about it and the Devs said it is on their list and it's coming in game soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Based on what? You say it is coming vs all the BW posts it is not. Find the posts that say it isn't. http://toroz.com.au/2012/03/interview-biowares-gabe-amatangelo-on-pvp-server-transfers/ just the most recent mention of it, and it's been in their blogs before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
genesiser Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 There already is a combat log/parser type of thing in the game already, just not directly available for players. It's easy to know there is such a thing by doing a warzone. Without a damage log or parser there would be no way for the game to tell you who did how much damage, what your highest damage hit was, your dps, etc at the end of a match. It's just a matter of time before they make it available for the player base. If you ask me, the sooner the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnleashedSithGod Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Based on what? 3 months no meters.. BW been against it. This is not WoW.. Would you look at that, another bad voting against meters so everyone won't tell him how bad he is...oh wait, they already do that but he feels secure knowing that no one has a parse to show him how bad he is. What's that Lassie? Combat logs are getting put into the game soon and damage meters will be implemented by 3rd party addons? Hope you enjoy getting laughed out of everything you do. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidank Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 -players will know what abilities do how much damage in a real battle, not just numbers on a tool-tip. They already know if they care to watch the screen. You can tell pretty easy if one ability hits harder then the other. Not very reliably, as a watchman sent I've got no idea what % of my damage cauterize is doing. -players who like to switch specs could directly compare each spec's true dps. They would still have to play both specs for a long period of time, over various situations. Again, by doing that, you can tell what spec is "better" for you. There is a reason why, say, Sents are all Watchman spec. Because, even without the holy power of a meter, players grasp and understand what is best. Actually there is a lot of debate over on the mara forums as to whether or not combat is better than watchman at high gear levels. Having a meter would let us know. -balancing classes will become easier So you think Bioware has no data they use behind the scenes to balancing? Yeah, pretty much. The PTR is a joke, I can almost guarantee that they don't collect nearly as much data as WoW collects before making decisions. -optimizing a rotation will become easier Crutch. Again play your class. From an MMO standpoint, this game is pretty darn easy. You can do your rotation without hand holding In an 8 man operation it's incredibly difficult to tell exactly how much damage you alone are doing. I'm going through the rotation I THINK I should be using, the bosses are dieing, but basically I've got no idea If I'm being carried or what the deal is. I could be doing amazingly or I could be doing crappy, I don't really have a reliable way of telling. -encourages experimentation in the talent tree See above. Plus without dropping cost of respecs or a dual spec, folks are not really playing around outside of cookie cutter paths. I would argue THAT is the key. Allowing cheaper or dual spec talents so people can play around more, but also of course, fill more roles in a group. Again, how would I know if it ends up giving me any more damage? Maybe the boss dies 10% quicker, and that makes me think I'm doing 10% more damage, but I could be doing 5% less damage and my buddy just got a new saber that's making him do 15% more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hages Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 If a dmg meter comes that u can see only i have no problem with it...If it will be a public dmg meter i am fully against it. It will only lead to thow people out of groups and lead to dps nearly focussing on dpsing and not on theire other tasks. And before someone implies..ohhhh u are scared that we will see youre awfull dps..i am a healer so it will not aply to myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squatdog_nz Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) -players will know what abilities do how much damage in a real battle, not just numbers on a tool-tip. They already know if they care to watch the screen. You can tell pretty easy if one ability hits harder then the other. -players who like to switch specs could directly compare each spec's true dps. They would still have to play both specs for a long period of time, over various situations. Again, by doing that, you can tell what spec is "better" for you. There is a reason why, say, Sents are all Watchman spec. Because, even without the holy power of a meter, players grasp and understand what is best. -balancing classes will become easier So you think Bioware has no data they use behind the scenes to balancing? -optimizing a rotation will become easier Crutch. Again play your class. From an MMO standpoint, this game is pretty darn easy. You can do your rotation without hand holding -encourages experimentation in the talent tree See above. Plus without dropping cost of respecs or a dual spec, folks are not really playing around outside of cookie cutter paths. I would argue THAT is the key. Allowing cheaper or dual spec talents so people can play around more, but also of course, fill more roles in a group. How are players meant to know their damage output, when the game doesn't even have a combat log, let alone a damage meter? Edited March 2, 2012 by LexiCazam Rude comments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberkensho Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) Sure let metrics enter the game just leave an option of something like "dont allow log data collection by other clients" that people can tick case they dont want to be tracked or be compared. Edited March 2, 2012 by Cyberkensho Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 Sure let metrics enter the game just leave an option of something like "dont allow log data collection by other clients" that people can tick case they dont want to be tracked or be compared. The better solution is to simply ignore or not group with people that harass you about your combat performance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hages Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 How are players meant to know their damage output, when the game doesn't even have a combat log, let alone a damage meter? When u play youre char u must know already witch attacs to use, witch proper rotation to use. U do not need dmg meter for this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysico Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 When u play youre char u must know already witch attacs to use, witch proper rotation to use. U do not need dmg meter for this Why is that the advocates of this always spell like they are 12 years old? The reason why folks are against meters is that it causes dps to focus on just that and not do other things to help their team. They do have other roles. Oh and I do love the classic "you are afraid and will be booted because you suck at dps" lines. Guess what, I am a healer. You are not kicking me, I kick you. And not for not doing enough dps, but for being horrible about being a team player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hages Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 1 . I am not english speaking (wich has nothing to do with my arguments) Not everyone here is fron usa or england btw 2 . Sure kick me. I do not mind. U will be on my ignore list and will never play with u again. 3. If u scroll up a bit u will see that i am a healer and no dps...Learn to read previous post before u come and flame people.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hadoken Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 What's REALLY funny is you two are flaming eachother yet agreeing with eachother. As far as logs go I'm for them, though as I said it doesn't really matter we're getting them regardless. I would prefer to know exactly what does what and what peak performance requires than the guessing game we have now. It would also help dispel a LOT of bad ideas and opinions (when fact becomes presented, opinion becomes irrelevant). I really don't subscribe to the 'ignorance is bliss' a lot of people against logs seem to perpetuate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hages Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 I know that he and me have the same arguments. I do not understand aswel why he was flaming me tbh.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudexx Posted March 2, 2012 Share Posted March 2, 2012 (edited) recount not only show dps. it shows who is interrupting/breaking cc/taking damage from stuff that can be avoided and more. again if u dont like it then join a guild where no one use or look at logs. no one is forcing u to play with it once it is implemented. u still have a choice. Cant find enough people that wont use it for ur operations? then u are the tiny minority trying to have things ur way while the mass majority want things another way. either way u people who dont want it are wrong trying to force people to play ur way. Edited March 2, 2012 by dudexx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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