If snipers are so good....

[Rossmatthew]

why don't you see any in the 50's bracket?

 

I would say because they are horrible unless on a good team.

[TheRagingPwner]

why don't you see any in the 50's bracket?

 

I would say because they are horrible unless on a good team.

 

Reason number one is because when the game started, all of the Star Wars fans wanted to play a class that used a lightsaber or a BH because they were "cool". No fans thought that a sniper was the class they always wanted to play.

 

Reason number two is that Snipers are the hardest class to play. Too hard for most to be good at. You cant just spam 2 or 3 buttons like you can for some of the other DPS classes. From my experience in WZs, most of the people playing are casuals that are just playing the game because they are Star Wars fans and don't necessarily understand the strategy or understand why and where they should be and what they should be doing. I will say it again...Snipers are very hard to play compared to the other classes.

 

If you actually read the forums, you will see that there are a group of snipers that understand how to play that are all saying the same thing...I NEVER, and i mean NEVER, get beat in damage and KBs. (Unless I am guarding a side turret that never gets attacked in Civil War) When I target someone, they either run away or they die. There is no arguing that because that is what happens in my games. You don't get the same results? ...You ever think that it is the person behind the keyboard that is bad and not the class? I mostly solo queue so the theory that I only play with good people is wrong. You can either listen to all the complainers that say snipers are bad, or you can listen to the select group that talks about how they absolutely dominate the WZs. You can then either re-roll or learn how to play the class.

Edited February 29, 2012 by TheRagingPwner

[Rossmatthew]

I'm sure not going to say I am a great sniper but I have played a lot of MMO's. The mark of an overpowered class is that everyone plays it. Conversely, when very few play the class it generally means that the class has some problems.

 

I'll take your word that you constantly top the charts but I haven't seen that kind of success for snipers on my server.

[TheRagingPwner]

I would agree that they are very underplayed. Snipers are probably going to get a buff due to the low population and people complaining but it will make them OP for the people who are already doing well in WZs.

[TrueDND]

I have played many of MMOs in my time as well. Although what you say about classes not being played a lot is mostly true, it is not completely true. For example, when I first started playing WoW the Druid class was the most underplayed class on most servers that I played on. However, they were one of the strongest classes in the game (I have played WoW since Beta, btw).

 

Pwner is correct; This is the hardest class to play in the game, and it is not something anyone thinks about when they think about Star Wars. When you think "Star Wars" one of the first things that will come to mind is "Light Sabers" and/or "The Force." Going down the line, you will think of Bounty Hunters, Han Solo (Smuggler class), Clone 'Troopers', etc. All the other classes that were made for this game are generally the first things that come to mind. Imperial Agent makes sense, but no one will go straight to them at first. So Bioware had to make the mechanics appealing. For me, they did. But, the mechanics also apply to a Smuggler as well, meaning once again, people will go for the Smuggler over Imperial Agent. In fact, on my server I see more Smugglers than Imperial Agents, which goes to help what I am trying to say.

 

To say the class is "bad" will only bring others here to let you know that you should level the class to 50 and try it for yourself. When I started the game, I was guild-less. Now I have a guild because they were looking for "good" Snipers. I won't say I am the best, but I play my class well enough to get recognition from people whom I just met in this game. Take the time and watch the actually good Snipers in the game tear people apart or try leveling one yourself if you have time. If it isn't for you, then it isn't for you. But we just ask that you at least try it before you feel the class is bad by your opinion.

[CTifer]

To say the class is "bad" will only bring others here to let you know that you should level the class to 50 and try it for yourself.

 

Conversely, if you say it's good, another set of folks tell you to hit 50, then come back and tell you how good it is.

 

Not that it matters, just saying... Go check the thread where a lvl 31 says it's hands down the worst in PvP.

[KalSpiro]

I'm sure not going to say I am a great sniper but I have played a lot of MMO's. The mark of an overpowered class is that everyone plays it. Conversely, when very few play the class it generally means that the class has some problems.

 

I'll take your word that you constantly top the charts but I haven't seen that kind of success for snipers on my server.

 

Um, I'm going to go with no. Generally a class has few people playing, not because it's bad, but because it's hard to be good at it. Those are not the same thing. Just because a class is difficult doesn't mean it's bad. It generally just means most players aren't good enough to be good at it.

[TrueDND]

Conversely, if you say it's good, another set of folks tell you to hit 50, then come back and tell you how good it is.

 

Not that it matters, just saying... Go check the thread where a lvl 31 says it's hands down the worst in PvP.

 

And I can say to you to check a couple threads where there are people leveling Snipers that say that they are doing great in PvP on the 10-49 bracket.

 

Also, I bet you are talking about this thread:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=235793

 

But here is a thread of someone leveling one and likes the class:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=332102

 

I did state for the Op to try it for himself rather than just perceive that it is bad. I didn't post these before because that is just more "perception" that this class is good or bad rather than him actually trying it for himself. For every 1 post I find of people that hate the class, I find 2-4 threads of people that like, love, and/or support the class. Try it before deciding that it is bad, is all I am saying. Don't listen to hype or perceive it as bad because you don't see people playing it.

Edited February 29, 2012 by TrueDND

[Dasamukha]

First: There are a few more snipers showing up in pvp war zones. Once upon a time I would go all night without seeing one. Now there are one or two others in the war zone.

 

Second: Snipers were and still are a pain in the *** to level. See class quest at end of Act 1 for an example. The new generation are probably alts.

 

Third: They don't use a light saber. Enough said.

 

Fourth: No one started out leveling a sniper to use lethality. We all wanted the cool droids or the super massive one hit, one kill. (MM or Eng) Only recently did experience tell us that lethality is cool.

 

Fifth: Watch a fully geared lethality specced sniper focus fire on an undergeared character and your jaw will drop. Dart --> Grenade --> Weakening Blast --> Cull. = Dead. If you don't have a heal on the way before the weakening blast is finished, that character is gone my friend. Gone.

 

Lastly: After spending the time to level and pvp through the brackets I get the chance to play a sniper and do 300K damage with 50+ kills and 10+ killing blows, with more than one solo kills. Everyone else has to try to catch up. Catching up is a long and painful journey, my friends, long and painful.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Dasamukha

[PatrickTheLama]

...there are a group of snipers that understand how to play that are all saying the same thing...I NEVER, and i mean NEVER, get beat in damage and KBs. (Unless I am guarding a side turret that never gets attacked in Civil War) When I target someone, they either run away or they die. There is no arguing that because that is what happens in my games. You don't get the same results?... You can either listen to all the complainers that say snipers are bad, or you can listen to the select group that talks about how they absolutely dominate the WZs. You can then either re-roll or learn how to play the class.

 

I like the sentiment in this post, but as usual specific cases are even more useful for us who are trying to learn the ways of the Sniper... The thinking man's class.

 

So let me ask this: those few who understand how to play the Sniper class are doing WHAT things that set them apart? For example?

 

And those many who do not understand the class are doing WHAT fundamental errors? For example?

[RonniDoitch]

I like the sentiment in this post, but as usual specific cases are even more useful for us who are trying to learn the ways of the Sniper... The thinking man's class.

 

So let me ask this: those few who understand how to play the Sniper class are doing WHAT things that set them apart? For example?

 

And those many who do not understand the class are doing WHAT fundamental errors? For example?

 

Kiting is a big one. One death plummets your damage output. I notice in games where I have few deaths I do mediocre damage, but zero deaths and I am a stat god on the leaderboard. Kitting always takes priority over doing damage.

 

Know your cooldowns on your roots/snares/stuns/knockbacks/mez

 

All snipers have leg shot. That ability is hardly EVER off of Cooldown for me and I have it talented to a 12 second CD. I am constantly using it to peel off a healer, hold a target in place to line up a shot, keep someone off me. Its the go-to root.

 

Your stun grenade fills a person resolve bar. It is your LAST RESORT CC. I generally only use it to keep ppl from interrupting a cap or if I know I can get away I will use it on someone persuing me. Timing this grenade is crucial, never spam it. Also follow it up with a leg shot to hold a person in place for a potential 13 seconds. It puts a smile on my face whenever I do this to some poor chap. Has to stand there and watch me either run away or kill his buddy.

 

Your pulse knockback+root is a great combo. Follow it up with a legshot at the end of its 5 scond duration or if it gets broken by damage.

 

You cannot be charged by jedi/sith if you are in cover. If you have a maurdaer on your *** knock him back/stun and run off a small distance and hop into cover. He cant charge you instantly. Youre the ONLY class that can safely stand on the edge of Huttball ledges and not have a tank class charge you if they have the Ball. Just get into cover and rain pain on either the ball carrier or his healers.

 

There are more CCs if you spec into them. You get the idea. One of my favorite combos, which hardly ever goes off to the max, is to leg shot hold them in place for 5 seconds, let them get close and melee stun for 2 seconds, then cover pulse knock back and wait out the 5 second root, then leg shot again for another 5 seconds and if it wont fill the resolve bar stun grenade for another 8 seconds followed up with yet anohter leg shot. If its only one person on you and no one is attacking them their life sucks. And if you stay in cover properly and never kite farther then 10 meters from them they cant force jump to you. My Juggernaut friends hate dueling me

 

Also, PICK YOUR TARGETS. Dont tab target and then go to town trying to kill whoever you have.

[finansjapp]

I do well with my sniper, and I love it because it is a very difficult class to play.

 

Is the class fine compared to others? No it isnt. Even now in lower level brackets you see a huge overweight of bounty hunters and inquisitors. Just now I played one with just imperials, and it was 9 bounty hunters, 3 sorcerors, 1 warrior and 1 agent.

 

Enough said. Some here even tell to put up numbers. You dont have to prove like that to say the earth is not flat. You see it, and know it.

 

About some of those who do well. They are all max gear (or mostly) and usually play in premades.

[Narcith]

I chose Sniper from the get go and don't regret it one bit.

 

In fact I was thinking about rolling a Republic alt to play with some friends and decided to roll a Slinger just because I enjoy the way the class plays so much. Not going to bother though.. just dont have the time for an alt

 

It should be mentioned though that good gear and Min/Maxing is just as important as how you spec your build for this class.

 

The class really starts to shine once you have some nice PVP / PVE gear to boost your stats.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Narcith

[Phinion]

I play a sniper in the lowbie bracket. Currently just hit level 40 and que solo. While I try to stay away from the packs of players I can find healers pretty well and keep them occupied. Leanring what CC to use at what times is key for a sniper. Be well aware of your surroundings and do not completely become a turret. You will have to move and if you can not kite and play on the move this is when you will die the most.

[Dasamukha]

I have said time and time again that snipers are the thinking man's class. They are not in the middle of the action like a Jug, or stand toe to toe like a BH or Sorcs. They skirt the edges, get to places you can't see. They stay out of the line of traffic, they pick off stragglers, harass healers, and smoke down unsuspecting targets. The style does not suit everyone.

 

Snipers are hard to learn and do much, much better with high end gear. A newly minted 50 fresh off the quest chains is a wet spot, spending more time in the rez area than anywhere. Getting the gear and hanging and learning the hard lessons are a trial of patience and persistence.

 

Once you learn to use your cooldowns, and have the situational awareness to avoid the floor and usual traffic patterns. Once you learn that it is better to be on the side or behind than it is in front, it is better to chase than it is to wait. That it is better to take one shot too few and move to a better place, than it is to grab that extra shot and get smoked. Once you learn to pick off the weak, or the stragglers, or those who are engaged in a one on one battle with a team mate. Then and only then to feel the power of melting a BH doing his mighty Death from Above, or the Jugg that has jumped on your ball carrier. You get to feel the rush of a perfectly placed and timed OB wasting half of the team.

 

Once you have done all those things. Please come back and tell me and the sniper community how underpowered we are. Tell us how useless we are, tell us, how put upon you are when half way through the match, you are singled out by each and every person you melted in place.

 

I always que solo. Being a part of a pre-made actually hinders my progression in huttball. The game is over too quickly to put up good numbers.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Dasamukha

[Sylriana]

Popularity and strength aren't necessarily correlated, unless you really want to tell me that Powertechs are the worst class in the game .

 

Certainly there's a degree of "X sucks, I'm rerolling/not making one" going around (on my server Ops went from third least to least played AC post acid blade nerf. Granted that wasn't as big of a swing as it sounds), but snipers weren't that common even before balance was established.

 

I'd argue a general lack of overt flashiness (from an animation standpoint, it's hard for a new player to even differentiate a sniper's attacks. Same for the Operative, to the point where people have accused players on the forums for hacking by spamming Backstab on an Op) and that the Agent draws no overt inspiration from the films like the BH and force users do(there's also no Imperial Agent in any of the pre-release trailers..) is the main driving reason behind a lack of Agents, or at least, more significant than balance, especially when you add on top how easy it is to fail as a sniper despite superficially looking easy

Edited March 1, 2012 by Sylriana

[PatrickTheLama]

Thanks for the excellent input folks. I took a look around Balmorra and saw several more Snipers on roughly my own level, so they do exist and new ones arrive. Unfortunately the forum discussions are mostly ex-WoW experts arguing over things I have no idea what they mean, or else it's lamers whining about this and that.

 

The hands-on ideas on how, as a Sniper, to deal with a melee-hungry Elite 3 levels above myself is on the other hand very hard to find. All these guides on skill trees and energy regeneration etc are fine, but its still not really helpful. I wish Snipers in the 10-30 bracket would post more specific questions and then a lot of other noobs will learn and progress.

 

The reason I'm posting this is because I think the class is consistently hard and slow to level if you are a noob, and the squishiness and caution needed will cause a lot of folks to throw in the towel, when in fact they just needed a few very specific points of advise.

 

These forums are fine but a little intimidating for newbies, due to all the WoW gurus and general air of one-upmanship... Or pissing contests in plain lingo.

 

Anyway, slow as it is, I'm sticking with my Sniper because he's got class and he's got the moves.

Edited March 2, 2012 by PatrickTheLama

[Tarakona]

Snipers have unique mechanics that most players either don't understand or don't want to take the time to understand. Good snipers know how to stay at range of other players (including how to get out of melee range quick). A lot of the complaints I see about the "problems" with Snipers are because the people listing these complaints don't know how to effectively use their abilities.

 

Knockback -> Root -> Leg Shot -> Cover roll halfway across the map.

 

Sounds simple but I've had friends try it and it takes practice to effectively do this. And some people, as some of my friends have expressed, just don't like these kinds of mechanics. They'd rather just force jump into a crowd and button mash their light saber abilities till they're standing on a pile of corpses.

 

So I don't really think it's the class that's good or bad or even if the player's good or bad. It's more IMO if the player know what they're really doing with the class.

[Poe_]

Thanks for the excellent input folks. I took a look around Balmorra and saw several more Snipers on roughly my own level, so they do exist and new ones arrive. Unfortunately the forum discussions are mostly ex-WoW experts arguing over things I have no idea what they mean, or else it's lamers whining about this and that.

 

The hands-on ideas on how, as a Sniper, to deal with a melee-hungry Elite 3 levels above myself is on the other hand very hard to find. All these guides on skill trees and energy regeneration etc are fine, but its still not really helpful. I wish Snipers in the 10-30 bracket would post more specific questions and then a lot of other noobs will learn and progress.

 

The reason I'm posting this is because I think the class is consistently hard and slow to level if you are a noob, and the squishiness and caution needed will cause a lot of folks to throw in the towel, when in fact they just needed a few very specific points of advise.

 

These forums are fine but a little intimidating for newbies, due to all the WoW gurus and general air of one-upmanship... Or pissing contests in plain lingo.

 

Anyway, slow as it is, I'm sticking with my Sniper because he's got class and he's got the moves.

Don't let the forums get you down. Look at my posts, I get railed on regularly for actually loving the class and suggesting that it can be played creatively to great effect.

 

Few tips for you as you level:

1. Use your tank, Kaliyo, to best effect. Send her in as a meatshield, don't ignore her mechanics or gear.

2. Play your PvE like you play your PvP, that is, control your enemies, save your cooldowns, cover pulse for separation, Leg Shot to slow, Flashbulb to blind, etc. It's the one class that I feel I sharpen my PvP skills when I do PvE content lol.

3. Play creatively, and don't be a dps leaderboard whore. The damage is there. But in warzones, contributing to the overall team win whether by managing the enemy, targeting one key adversary (healers), or shadowing a teammate and 'dropping the hammer', as I like to think of it, on their targets as they engage far away in melee, is highly satisfying to me. Maybe it will be to you too, and it will remove alot of pressure about 'being top dps' or 'having full utility.'

 

The Sniper is very hard to play well. Any love we get (and we need some, the class is not perfectly balanced in many people's opinion) will only make Snipers who are comfortable with the class now more powerful in the future.

 

In a way, there's no where to go but up ... it's a great class to play.

[kingofthefishppl]

3. Play creatively, and don't be a dps leaderboard whore. The damage is there. But in warzones, contributing to the overall team win whether by managing the enemy, targeting one key adversary (healers), or shadowing a teammate and 'dropping the hammer', as I like to think of it, on their targets as they engage far away in melee, is highly satisfying to me. Maybe it will be to you too, and it will remove alot of pressure about 'being top dps' or 'having full utility.'

 

 

I have played tons of huttball matches and one of my favorite things to do is spring the ball carrier free with a single well placed flashbang. I liken my Sniper to playing an enchanter in everquest. It's not really appreciated until you see one played well. They have their drawbacks. I started with one and love it. I can tear some people up when needed but prefer to do as you say and help the team win. None of the WZ are team death match so leading dmg and kills does no good if you just got skunked in huttball

[NicWester]

why don't you see any in the 50's bracket?

 

Because most Sniper PLAYERS are bad.

 

The class is alright. Not the best, not the worst. But it takes effort to play well, and people don't like putting in effort when they can just Tracer Missile their way to victory instead.

[xdvesper]

Going to add a bit more sniper advice in addition to what is said above.

 

(just to establish some credentials, it's rare for me to do less than 400k, and i sometimes break 600k - like this http://i42.tinypic.com/23rwit.jpg)

 

I assume you're going to be playing Lethality at high levels, since it's the most powerful sniper spec right now, say 2/8/31 - we'll have to see how it plays out later after DOTs no longer interrupt caps.

 

Number 1 - Utility

Snipers are balanced around having huge range. With the PVP set, Takedown has 40m, and Distract has 35m. This means you never tunnel vision one target unless it needs to die. When you are fighting, you aren't playing 1v1 - you are looking at the game from a team perspective.

 

You have to think of yourself as a utility class. Don't think about damage first. You can interrupt a Grav Round, Force Lightning, or Heal every 12 seconds. It has no cost to you and has a 35m range. Do it. Flashbang is possibly the best CC ever, it is instant cast, ranged, and aoe. You can catch 4 people together as they appear out of the door, giving your team time to cap or score - no other class can do this. Legshot is available every 12 seconds, and it's as good as a 5 second stun on melee classes - or even healers. It's all about target choice: it's just as easy to use any of these skills for zero effect, or use them in game winning plays.

 

Example of game winning plays:

 

Your team has just cleared one side in Voidstar, and has started to cap... the defender barrier opens and 4 enemy player stream out, ready to interrupt the cap. But you've already targeted them from before the barrier opened, the moment the barrier opens you hit them all with a flashbang...

 

You are focusing down the enemy ball carrier in Huttball, you notice an enemy healer on the side casting a long heal. You use Distraction on the healer, interrupting the heal, while not slowing your DPS at all - you can fire Distract DURING the GCD of your normal damage rotation. (try it: when you use instant Weakening Blast / Grenade / Dart / Takedown, all skills go on the 1.5 second cooldown except for Distract)

 

Number 2 : Energy Management.

Getting high damage numbers is simple: keep your energy in the max regen range at all times, do not ever cap out on energy, and make sure to use your highest damage-per-energy abilities. Also, ANY time you have a spare GCD available, make sure you rifle shot.

 

This alone will net you around 500k damage, but it's easier said than done. It's a PVE related skill, really, everyone works it out in the end, but I'll provide some pointers.

 

So at the start, you survey the enemy team as they stream in. Sort out in your mind who your interrupt targets will be (Commandos, Sages). Sort out who your Legtrap targets will be (Melee). Sort out who your CC targets will be (Snipers, they can't be interrupted in any other way, Operatives, too many instants). While you are sorting this out in your mind, corrosive dart everyone you can safely - the ones you know won't be needing a CC or legshot.

 

If you see a cluster of 3 people, or even 2, use your judgement, drop your corrosive grenade. By this time, you should have 6 dots up, more or less, yielding an extra 1 energy per second regeneration. And by now you should have gotten a feel for the fight - basically deciding, of all the enemies in play right now, which one is the best target?

 

NOW can you begin your burst damage, which is costly in terms of energy but you will get back a fair bit from your DOTs. You drop to below 50 energy only if you have an Adrenaline Probe up or you absolutely need that enemy killed. Remember as Lethality that Series of Shots, Ambush+Explosive Probe still do very heavy damage.

 

The key to managing energy is to understand that your dots are an upfront investment of 15-20 energy, which you slowly get back about half later. You use the first 6 seconds of the fight "storing" up energy in those dots, then when you get it back later in the next 10 seconds you will use it for burst damage. You need the first 6 seconds to pick the right target anyway, it's not always wise to blindly burst the first target you see.

 

If you see 4-5 enemies clustered together, throw a fragmentation grenade.

 

And of course, orbital bombardment. You get 4 pulses of it over 12 seconds in your PVP set, and it's always a net damage increase for me over anything else I could possibly use energy for. You just have to be creative. You can aim it so you hit people just on the very edge of it (misleading AOE indictor, lol) ... force entrenched snipers to move ... pretty much "guarantee" the bomb explodes on voidstar (12 seconds, no one can defuse or even cap nodes on alderran)... you can actually force enemies to stand in it (cast it on the side turret in Alderaan, and kite enemies round and around it using your dots and pretend to cap, they will have to stand in your orbital strike zone to interrupt). With relic+adrenal+pvp 15% boost I've critted 4600+ per player with a single orbital strike pulse.

 

---

[Eternalwitness]

I have played tons of huttball matches and one of my favorite things to do is spring the ball carrier free with a single well placed flashbang. I liken my Sniper to playing an enchanter in everquest. It's not really appreciated until you see one played well. They have their drawbacks. I started with one and love it. I can tear some people up when needed but prefer to do as you say and help the team win. None of the WZ are team death match so leading dmg and kills does no good if you just got skunked in huttball

 

Enchanter from EQ. Exactly. CC gods we are. Just starting playing the game, and rolled sniper as my class. Leveling very quickly and smoothly. Having a tank companion lets me roll into elite mobs no problem. Just chain your CC effectively, or else you will have a lot of problems!

[Murane]

I personally believe snipers can do amazing i even do it in the 1-49 brackets sometimes. But to compare at what im headed to your small good group of snipers what specs do you really do? im so far MM and i feel i do well but i dont really pvp to much with the guy yet. Im personally waiting for 50 to PVP a ton, but when i get there i just want to know what makes the okay from the best. Since i do love them, hard to always be the best though. Since i do like many of the gun classes over sabers just because it to me is more fun

[Ahrounmoon]

Fourth: No one started out leveling a sniper to use lethality. We all wanted the cool droids or the super massive one hit, one kill. (MM or Eng) Only recently did experience tell us that lethality is cool.

 

I found this odd. Granted, I'm not doing a sniper, I'm doing a gunslinger. And the gunslinger is a 3rd or 4th character, I forget which. But I went straight to Dirty Fighting and my reasoning for doing so was because it sounded very similar to the skirmisher spec for Shadow Warriors in Warhammer. That class was in a similar place to the snipers in that it was one of the tougher classes to play well, it was ranged (an archer) and where it really got good was once you learned how to properly kite people before they really got their claws on you and focus on mobility. Dirty Fighting, and thus Lethality, just seemed like a natural choice for PvP.