Vader VS.

[Makoto_Shishio]

Reikai, you have yet once again gotten annihilated on this forum. Why on earth do you even bother trying to argue against facts? Edited July 7, 2012 by Makoto_Shishio

[ReiKai]

All of it has been proven by countless source mat.erial which you obviously always ignore

 

Because Character Statements and Wookieepedia do not evidence make. It's like having the Black Knight shout "I'm Invincible!" and then having his legs hacked out from under him.

 

Oh really? Last i recall he overpowered starkiller many times and DID chuck him into space!.

 

That you know very well is silly. And what Vader did was backstab Galen Marek (Literally, with a Lightsaber), then knock him around and TK him through the viewport on a Star Destroyer, In Space, and into the vacuum. That is a far cry from just TK'ing someone into space, ie implying he could do so from the Ground.

 

Ironic that this is coming from probably the worst Revan fanboy in existence who delibrately ignores any canon statement that proves certain characters > your favourites.

 

As Revan has jack nothing to do with this debate I fail to see any reason why you'd bring such a thing up to begin with. And what I ignore is Hyperbole Statements.

 

Well we don't know the exact circumstances of the battle whether or not Surik REALLY cleaved him with a lightsaber because according to common sense and canon fact, a lightsaber dissintigrates flesh, there is no way Sion can hold together something that is completely burned away.

 

You know quite well that's untrue. For starters there are creatures and such in the SWU whose flesh is perfectly capable of stopping lightsabers. Also the fact that lightsabers are plasma-blades, in for all intents and purposes. It burns and Cauterizes the area, it doesn't just disintegrate what it touches. And really, if Maul can survive with half a body, an ancient Sith Lord living on as just a Head, and Nihilus remaining as nothing but a Spirit in a suit of armor, then is it really so hard to believe Sion could reattach even burned and severed body parts?

 

A greater duelist and a far superior force user who has demonstrated things thousands of times better than sion.

 

Again useless numerical values that hold no weight whatsoever.

 

Palpatine was far from weak considering the ancient sith FEARED and respected palpatine and even admitted he was the most powerful sith EVER. Again, unlike nihilus, Palpatine has absolute control over his powers.

 

ok, -What- ancient Sith? Because none ever talked to Palps, and they'd sure as hell never met him. And I can't imagine they'd fear a guy who had to resort to killing his master while Plaguis was Asleep. And if Sid had such control over his power, how come he couldn't Fly or Levitate himself when it really mattered? You know, cause falling to his doom would certainly not be in his "plans for the future".

 

Even Thanaton could use Force Lightning to levitate himself and fly up a bit to avoid a premature confrotnation with the Inquisitor.

 

 

Yes he was. Dark empire source book stated he was draining the planets life force and turned a "lush fertile world into a powerful dark side nexus".

 

If he was Draining the planet, the planed would be dying , not transforming. A Dead planet would not have a presence in the Force. Injuring a planet could, more or less, transform it into a Dark Side nexus, much the way Malachor 5 when Revan ordered the use of the Mass Shadow Driver to Gravity Crunch the planet.

 

They denied Krayt because he was a pretender, why would they deny Sidious when he was the only sith in history to actually conquer the galaxy and wipe out the jedi order? Again you're gasping at straws.

 

Sidious ignored the Rule of Two by killing Plaguis in his sleep, going against the philosophy set down by Darth Bane. Nihilus didn't care about ruling the galaxy, so Sid half-way accomplishing such would be meaningless (he never ruled Hutt Space, the Chiss Ascendency was still hidden, and the Senate still had some power which he was trying to dissolve. In other words, he didn't have absolute dominion over the galaxy as a whole. Only what he himself controlled).

 

Andeddu, like the other holocrons, generally won't teach you anything unless you follow Their Specific Philosphy. Which was hy Bane had to Forcibly enter Andeddu's holocron to steal the Ritual of Essence Transfer because Andeddu's gatekeeper refused to teach him, regardless of the fact that, according to what had been "said" about Bane being the Sith'ari, didn't make him worthy of that knowledge.

 

And the thing is Vader never had that knowledge yet even with the most basic techniques, he is vastly more powerful than any of the characters in the Mythos.

 

Which anyone with an Original thought in their head would know is an outright Lie.

 

And your point is?

 

If you failed to get the point, then you get an F for this class.

 

You are without doubt the stupidest person on this board, no wonder nobody ever takes you seriously.

 

Baseless and foolish insults do not assist your argument, they just hurt you.

 

First off iv defeated your claim at sadow "tearing at stars" considering the actually comic and sourcebook state AND SHOWS that it was sadows SHIP that utilized technology to blow up stars which you obviously ignored.

 

Again, incorrect. Sadow used his power, which passed Through the ship to reach out and pull solar flares from nearby stars. The Ship itself does not have that power, nor does the Ship enhance Sadow's power. He had an Amulet for that, which would later come into possession of Exar Kun. It's no so different from Star Killer later on using his Force Lightning to power the engines in a derelict ship on Raxus Prime in order to move passed the debris to reach his objective.

 

On TFN.net, official response to the strongest Sith: Palpatine at his peak.

 

Which, if Anything, would be the Latest form of Reborn Sidious and not his earlier incarnations, which were much weaker. Nvm, again, it was never actually proven. Did he fight and defeat 'the most powerful Sith' before him? No. Did he go through Time and defeat the great Sith to have ever existed? No. They tossed that line in to appease GL, and now many years later, we have the KotoR/TOR era, and Retconning of bad writing.

 

I'm also going to point out that even Source Books are not entirely accurate. Example: One Marvel sourcebook has Thanos, the Mad Titan, at a max speed of 800mph. And for some people, they believed Only what they read in the sourcebook. Now, the rest of us who actually Read the comics and understood them, noted numerous times in which the character, Thanos, regularly and effortlessly caught, hammered, and beat down other characters who moved in excess of the Speed of Light. Now, what is best to believe? The canon Sourcebook that states one thing, or the actual feats performed by the Character in canon?

 

Guess what? I've been in a number of Vs forums, and when you're doing a Versus battle, lines such as "greatest ever" are utterly meaningless. You could say "He is a god!" and I can give you guys who kill gods and have killed GOD. Because you know what else? Plot and Circumstance can Kill Anyone.

 

Palpatine, and it was a galaxy wide battle meditation.

 

More rubbish. There was no real effect, and his "foresight" is terrible. He'll say "I have foreseen this" and then 3sec later go "if it doesn't happen that way then it doesn't mean anything to me". He had Oracles to see the future for him. And when they told him he would die and Ewoks would help to defeat his Imperial forces, he just went "Banthapoodoo. Now lemme alone, imma but on my flarkin comfy Emperor robes an go torture some kiddies." And later the next day, he's falling down an energy shaft wondering why he didn't listen to his Oracles.

 

Yes he did because your previous Revan would have been slaughtered had he gone head to head with yoda.

 

First off, the word is "Precious" not "previous". Secondly, and Again, Revan has nothing to do with this debate. And if you want to do a Revan vs Yoda thread, I'm sure 10 already exist, so I don't see the point in you bothering to spout such nonsense.

 

Yet it still greatly surpasses anything done by your precious jedi order in TOR. Really, the only great feats i see from that era were from the main characters(malgus,vitiate,revan,shan,jadus). If the PT/OT era order was so laughable, what does that make your precious TOR order look like then?

 

Makes TOR era Jedi look damn respectable in comparison.

 

Ah, you muist have forgot that its simply the fact that he is simply mouthing the words of what the director or author intended.

 

The same can be said for the Jedi Master who said Revan's potential was "Unlimited" yet those like yourself continued to Contend this because you don't like the idea of him being Potentially more powerful than Anakin/Vader. So it's time you moved passed using Character Statements which're pure bunk. A Character Statement is, and ever shall be, Only what the Character Himself feels or understands based on his own experiences, and not the Collective Knowledge of the Directors/Writers responsible for the Plot and Direction the story is going.

 

Nope, its not. Prove that its lost and destroyed,

 

Archive of Tython? Gone. Ossus Accademy records? Destroyed. Jedi Temple? Destroyed twice prior to RotS with archives damaged or lost. Dantooine Accademy? Destroyed, Jedi artifacts lost, Sith Artifacts and Holocrons preserved by Atris prior to bombardment. After the Treaty of Coruscant, Ruined Jedi Temple had been raided by scavengers and Sith, which means more Information lost.

 

Do you seriously not have any idea how much Knowledge and such is Lost over thousands of years from either corrupted data over time, being destroyed by assaults, pirate attacks during Transport from one location to another, being damaged during transit or any of the other ways knowledge has been lost? Including things made of flimsiplast or even animal skins that rotted and crumbled over time, and so many other things that it's not even funny? The same went for the Sith as well.

 

It was stated in one of the novels.

 

No, it wasn't. And I know this because I read it. You're thinking of Darth Maul -Shadow Hunter- in which it said he was the Master of Teras Kasi. It did not make him capable of rivaling Yoda in saber combat, and it certainly didn't stop Maul from killing him.

 

And jedi in luke orders > the movies that > your era. So your point is moot. Whats your point? This is between TOR era and PT era, not luke era and PT era!

 

No, this is between Vader and the listed characters he has to fight, not the Eras nor Sid's supposed power or Vader's Unreached potential in comparison to every other character in existence, yet you keep bringing these things up yourself, so don't complain.

 

And yoda merged the entire dark side of dagobah into a single cave.

 

No. Dagobah itself was a Dark Side aligned planet, which Yoda used to Hide himself on because it would make detecting him there impossible. That cave was a strong focal point of Dark Side energy and nothing more. An idea that was actually ripped from the movies and adapted to the TCW series in the Mortis episodes when Anakin went to that volcanic area that was the "Cauldron of the Dark Side" or some such.

 

why should i provide a quote when you have yet to provided a single shred of evidence?

 

Clearly you don't know what it means to Provide Evidence. You Claimed Mace could "move a mountain" and then Refuse to actually prove it. If you Cannot Prove a Claim, then it remains solely Your Claim, and not Canon Fact.

 

No, its the fact that you have never once posted a cohesive rebuttal

 

You mean Aside from pointing out every flaw in your argument and showing that nothing Sid or Vader did was remotely special as compared to other Characters in the Lore? Your entire argument Thrives solely on Character Statements, the most Inconsistent and Baseless things you can rely on. Everything you spout is just Flaming for the sake of Flaming. With every bit of nonsense you spout I can actually feel the collective intelligence of everyone around dying.

 

I've tolerated you're presence long enough. You, my dear Boy, are not worth my time or patience to continually disprove.

 

That's why Darth Sidious gave him Darth Malgus' journal as inspiration and knowledge of the way of the Sith Warrior then is it?

 

That would depend on what was written in it and if Vader had actually read it. While Malgus isn't one of my favorites, he was still an interesting character. And I do find it funny that someone that was based off Vader is being used was inspiration for Vader.

 

Vader is clearly a far superior duellist to Surik and he was THE Juggernaut, have you any idea of the normally fatal injuries he sustained throughout his tenure as a Sith Lord?

 

I can't say much on Meetra Surik. She was an exceptional duelist and Scourge was quite impressed with her. At the very least according to the game lore, Meetra had learned all seven lightsaber forms. Perhaps not mastered, but learned. And in terms of Vader injuries, yes he's taken a fair beating over the years, but then again he's already on a life support system so unless you can chop off his head or damage that system, any other injuries are almost meaningless. Like when he impaled himself through the abdomen to stab the Maul Clone behind him. As long as Vader didn't damage his life support, such an injury wouldn't be considered life threatening.

 

Incorrect, canonically Surik freely submitted to the councils judgement and allowed them to remove her abilities, she'd only be 'tooled' if she was actually fighting back, which she wasn't.

 

Of that I'm aware. He was referring to something else and just trying to flame the argument more. Meetra was still kinda confused at the time, but would've allowed herself to be severed from the Force again, until Kreia stepped in.

 

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi. I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form—or the master of the classic form?"

―Mace Windu to Obi-Wan Kenobi[src]

 

This is what I mean by using character statements. For one thing, he was asking a question. Secondly, he did not say Obi-Wan was The Greatest master in history or to have ever learned Soresu. He only states that Obi-Wan had mastered the classic form of Soresu. What you, and many others do, is take things out of context. Much the same with the quotes you posted.

 

"…and Shaak Ti's the most cunning Jedi I've met. She's even taught me a few tricks."

―Obi-Wan Kenobi[src]

 

This is Obi-Wan speaking from his own Personal experience. Not the collective experience and knowledge of the entire Jedi Order throughout history. Only those that Obi-Wan had personally come into contact with during his time with the Jedi Order. Again, you're taking things out of context.

 

He was one of a very few practitioners of dueling-centric Makashi in the Order at the time,[1] and unmatched in his mastery of it.[26]

^Count Dooku, in a time where Jedi and Sith were at their most powerful, was unmatched in his practice of Makashi. Now what evidence do you have to counter this?

 

Again, you're taking things out of context. And look up at what you quoted yourself. "at the time" meaning only during that period of the Jedi Order, ie PT era. Which doesn't include everything throughout history, just the time that Dooku was around. And being "unmatched" was against those "few" others who studied Makashi, not "Everyone" who had ever learned it through time.

 

Considered the greatest Jedi Master of the era by many, Yoda was one of the most skilled users of the Force in the history of the galaxy.

^There is no other Jedi before Yoda who was more powerful than him. If the Old Republic Sith such as "Naga Sadow, Marka Ragnos," and etc are considered to be on a firmly lower tier than Sidious, then we can infer that Jedi such as "Thon, Nomi Sunrider, and Ulic" are on a firmly lower tier than Yoda.

 

This would be your opinion setting in. And really, look at your own quote. It said he was "one of the most skilled users of the Force". Not the most Powerful Jedi. And "Considered the greatest of the era" meaning that the Jedi during that time believed Yoda to be that way during the time that Yoda was part of the Jedi Order. Which would mean for the last maybe 8-9 centuries, Yoda was 'considered' the greatest Jedi. That has nothing to do with all the Jedi who had come before him in the Old Republic eras and such.

 

A lot of what people are hinging their arguments on are things taken out of context and Character Statements litered with hyperbole. Most of your and some others arguments rely entirely upon these character statements.

 

Gary Stu=Most Powerful. Thanks for agreeing with me.

 

That's not what it means. a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is a character that is overpowered for no other reason than to be overpowered. In most cases it's a character formed of bad writing and then the Writer has to whip up a Deus Ex Machina to stop it.

Edited July 9, 2012 by ReiKai

[Aurbere]

Because Character Statements and Wookieepedia do not evidence make. It's like having the Black Knight shout "I'm Invincible!" and then having his legs hacked out from under him.

 

 

 

That you know very well is silly. And what Vader did was backstab Galen Marek (Literally, with a Lightsaber), then knock him around and TK him through the viewport on a Star Destroyer, In Space, and into the vacuum. That is a far cry from just TK'ing someone into space, ie implying he could do so from the Ground.

 

 

 

As Revan has jack nothing to do with this debate I fail to see any reason why you'd bring such a thing up to begin with. And what I ignore is Hyperbole Statements.

 

 

 

You know quite well that's untrue. For starters there are creatures and such in the SWU whose flesh is perfectly capable of stopping lightsabers. Also the fact that lightsabers are plasma-blades, in for all intents and purposes. It burns and Cauterizes the area, it doesn't just disintegrate what it touches. And really, if Maul can survive with half a body, an ancient Sith Lord living on as just a Head, and Nihilus remaining as nothing but a Spirit in a suit of armor, then is it really so hard to believe Sion could reattach even burned and severed body parts?

 

 

 

Again useless numerical values that hold no weight whatsoever.

 

 

 

ok, -What- ancient Sith? Because none ever talked to Palps, and they'd sure as hell never met him. And I can't imagine they'd fear a guy who had to resort to killing his master while Plaguis was Asleep. And if Sid had such control over his power, how come he couldn't Fly or Levitate himself when it really mattered? You know, cause falling to his doom would certainly not be in his "plans for the future".

 

Even Thanaton could use Force Lightning to levitate himself and fly up a bit to avoid a premature confrotnation with the Inquisitor.

 

 

 

 

If he was Draining the planet, the planed would be dying , not transforming. A Dead planet would not have a presence in the Force. Injuring a planet could, more or less, transform it into a Dark Side nexus, much the way Malachor 5 when Revan ordered the use of the Mass Shadow Driver to Gravity Crunch the planet.

 

 

 

Sidious ignored the Rule of Two by killing Plaguis in his sleep, going against the philosophy set down by Darth Bane. Nihilus didn't care about ruling the galaxy, so Sid half-way accomplishing such would be meaningless (he never ruled Hutt Space, the Chiss Ascendency was still hidden, and the Senate still had some power which he was trying to dissolve. In other words, he didn't have absolute dominion over the galaxy as a whole. Only what he himself controlled).

 

Andeddu, like the other holocrons, generally won't teach you anything unless you follow Their Specific Philosphy. Which was hy Bane had to Forcibly enter Andeddu's holocron to steal the Ritual of Essence Transfer because Andeddu's gatekeeper refused to teach him, regardless of the fact that, according to what had been "said" about Bane being the Sith'ari, didn't make him worthy of that knowledge.

 

 

 

Which anyone with an Original thought in their head would know is an outright Lie.

 

 

 

If you failed to get the point, then you get an F for this class.

 

 

 

Baseless and foolish insults do not assist your argument, they just hurt you.

 

 

 

Again, incorrect. Sadow used his power, which passed Through the ship to reach out and pull solar flares from nearby stars. The Ship itself does not have that power, nor does the Ship enhance Sadow's power. He had an Amulet for that, which would later come into possession of Exar Kun. It's no so different from Star Killer later on using his Force Lightning to power the engines in a derelict ship on Raxus Prime in order to move passed the debris to reach his objective.

 

 

 

Which, if Anything, would be the Latest form of Reborn Sidious and not his earlier incarnations, which were much weaker. Nvm, again, it was never actually proven. Did he fight and defeat 'the most powerful Sith' before him? No. Did he go through Time and defeat the great Sith to have ever existed? No. They tossed that line in to appease GL, and now many years later, we have the KotoR/TOR era, and Retconning of bad writing.

 

I'm also going to point out that even Source Books are not entirely accurate. Example: One Marvel sourcebook has Thanos, the Mad Titan, at a max speed of 800mph. And for some people, they believed Only what they read in the sourcebook. Now, the rest of us who actually Read the comics and understood them, noted numerous times in which the character, Thanos, regularly and effortlessly caught, hammered, and beat down other characters who moved in excess of the Speed of Light. Now, what is best to believe? The canon Sourcebook that states one thing, or the actual feats performed by the Character in canon?

 

Guess what? I've been in a number of Vs forums, and when you're doing a Versus battle, lines such as "greatest ever" are utterly meaningless. You could say "He is a god!" and I can give you guys who kill gods and have killed GOD. Because you know what else? Plot and Circumstance can Kill Anyone.

 

 

 

More rubbish. There was no real effect, and his "foresight" is terrible. He'll say "I have foreseen this" and then 3sec later go "if it doesn't happen that way then it doesn't mean anything to me". He had Oracles to see the future for him. And when they told him he would die and Ewoks would help to defeat his Imperial forces, he just went "Banthapoodoo. Now lemme alone, imma but on my flarkin comfy Emperor robes an go torture some kiddies." And later the next day, he's falling down an energy shaft wondering why he didn't listen to his Oracles.

 

 

 

First off, the word is "Precious" not "previous". Secondly, and Again, Revan has nothing to do with this debate. And if you want to do a Revan vs Yoda thread, I'm sure 10 already exist, so I don't see the point in you bothering to spout such nonsense.

 

 

 

Makes TOR era Jedi look damn respectable in comparison.

 

 

 

The same can be said for the Jedi Master who said Revan's potential was "Unlimited" yet those like yourself continued to Contend this because you don't like the idea of him being Potentially more powerful than Anakin/Vader. So it's time you moved passed using Character Statements which're pure bunk. A Character Statement is, and ever shall be, Only what the Character Himself feels or understands based on his own experiences, and not the Collective Knowledge of the Directors/Writers responsible for the Plot and Direction the story is going.

 

 

 

Archive of Tython? Gone. Ossus Accademy records? Destroyed. Jedi Temple? Destroyed twice prior to RotS with archives damaged or lost. Dantooine Accademy? Destroyed, Jedi artifacts lost, Sith Artifacts and Holocrons preserved by Atris prior to bombardment. After the Treaty of Coruscant, Ruined Jedi Temple had been raided by scavengers and Sith, which means more Information lost.

 

Do you seriously not have any idea how much Knowledge and such is Lost over thousands of years from either corrupted data over time, being destroyed by assaults, pirate attacks during Transport from one location to another, being damaged during transit or any of the other ways knowledge has been lost? Including things made of flimsiplast or even animal skins that rotted and crumbled over time, and so many other things that it's not even funny? The same went for the Sith as well.

 

 

 

No, it wasn't. And I know this because I read it. You're thinking of Darth Maul -Shadow Hunter- in which it said he was the Master of Teras Kasi. It did not make him capable of rivaling Yoda in saber combat, and it certainly didn't stop Maul from killing him.

 

 

 

No, this is between Vader and the listed characters he has to fight, not the Eras nor Sid's supposed power or Vader's Unreached potential in comparison to every other character in existence, yet you keep bringing these things up yourself, so don't complain.

 

 

 

No. Dagobah itself was a Dark Side aligned planet, which Yoda used to Hide himself on because it would make detecting him there impossible. That cave was a strong focal point of Dark Side energy and nothing more. An idea that was actually ripped from the movies and adapted to the TCW series in the Mortis episodes when Anakin went to that volcanic area that was the "Cauldron of the Dark Side" or some such.

 

 

 

Clearly you don't know what it means to Provide Evidence. You Claimed Mace could "move a mountain" and then Refuse to actually prove it. If you Cannot Prove a Claim, then it remains solely Your Claim, and not Canon Fact.

 

 

 

You mean Aside from pointing out every flaw in your argument and showing that nothing Sid or Vader did was remotely special as compared to other Characters in the Lore? Your entire argument Thrives solely on Character Statements, the most Inconsistent and Baseless things you can rely on. Everything you spout is just Flaming for the sake of Flaming. With every bit of nonsense you spout I can actually feel the collective intelligence of everyone around dying.

 

I've tolerated you're presence long enough. You, my dear Boy, are not worth my time or patience to continually disprove.

 

 

 

That would depend on what was written in it and if Vader had actually read it. While Malgus isn't one of my favorites, he was still an interesting character. And I do find it funny that someone that was based off Vader is being used was inspiration for Vader.

 

 

 

I can't say much on Meetra Surik. She was an exceptional duelist and Scourge was quite impressed with her. At the very least according to the game lore, Meetra had learned all seven lightsaber forms. Perhaps not mastered, but learned. And in terms of Vader injuries, yes he's taken a fair beating over the years, but then again he's already on a life support system so unless you can chop off his head or damage that system, any other injuries are almost meaningless. Like when he impaled himself through the abdomen to stab the Maul Clone behind him. As long as Vader didn't damage his life support, such an injury wouldn't be considered life threatening.

 

 

 

Of that I'm aware. He was referring to something else and just trying to flame the argument more. Meetra was still kinda confused at the time, but would've allowed herself to be severed from the Force again, until Kreia stepped in.

 

 

 

This is what I mean by using character statements. For one thing, he was asking a question. Secondly, he did not say Obi-Wan was The Greatest master in history or to have ever learned Soresu. He only states that Obi-Wan had mastered the classic form of Soresu. What you, and many others do, is take things out of context. Much the same with the quotes you posted.

 

 

 

This is Obi-Wan speaking from his own Personal experience. Not the collective experience and knowledge of the entire Jedi Order throughout history. Only those that Obi-Wan had personally come into contact with during his time with the Jedi Order. Again, you're taking things out of context.

 

 

 

Again, you're taking things out of context. And look up at what you quoted yourself. "at the time" meaning only during that period of the Jedi Order, ie PT era. Which doesn't include everything throughout history, just the time that Dooku was around. And being "unmatched" was against those "few" others who studied Makashi, not "Everyone" who had ever learned it through time.

 

 

 

This would be your opinion setting in. And really, look at your own quote. It said he was "one of the most skilled users of the Force". Not the most Powerful Jedi. And "Considered the greatest of the era" meaning that the Jedi during that time believed Yoda to be that way during the time that Yoda was part of the Jedi Order. Which would mean for the last maybe 8-9 centuries, Yoda was 'considered' the greatest Jedi. That has nothing to do with all the Jedi who had come before him in the Old Republic eras and such.

 

A lot of what people are hinging their arguments on are things taken out of context and Character Statements litered with hyperbole. Most of your and some others arguments rely entirely upon these character statements.

 

 

 

That's not what it means. a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is a character that is overpowered for no other reason than to be overpowered. In most cases it's a character formed of bad writing and then the Writer has to whip up a Deus Ex Machina to stop it.

 

Palpatine has oracles? I only have one thing to say about that:

 

 

THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Newyankalt]

Probably vader for all of them maybe not sion since if I remember right sion couldnt die but the exile talked to him and said he was being used so unless vader could give a nice speech sion would keep getting back up.

[MaceTowani]

Because Character Statements and Wookieepedia do not evidence make. It's like having the Black Knight shout "I'm Invincible!" and then having his legs hacked out from under him.

 

And yet we should take your baseless opinions as fact?

 

 

This is what I mean by using character statements. For one thing, he was asking a question. Secondly, he did not say Obi-Wan was The Greatest master in history or to have ever learned Soresu. He only states that Obi-Wan had mastered the classic form of Soresu. What you, and many others do, is take things out of context. Much the same with the quotes you posted.

 

What other Jedi/Sith completely mastered the Soresu form? Don't worry I'll wait......

 

 

This is Obi-Wan speaking from his own Personal experience. Not the collective experience and knowledge of the entire Jedi Order throughout history. Only those that Obi-Wan had personally come into contact with during his time with the Jedi Order. Again, you're taking things out of context.[/Quote]

 

How many Jedi have been celebrated for their cunning alone? Don't worry I'll wait......

 

 

Again, you're taking things out of context. And look up at what you quoted yourself. "at the time" meaning only during that period of the Jedi Order, ie PT era. Which doesn't include everything throughout history, just the time that Dooku was around. And being "unmatched" was against those "few" others who studied Makashi, not "Everyone" who had ever learned it through time.

 

How many Makashi practicioners have been lauded as much as Dooku has both as a Sith and a Jedi? Don't worry I'll wait......

 

This would be your opinion setting in. And really, look at your own quote. It said he was "one of the most skilled users of the Force". Not the most Powerful Jedi. And "Considered the greatest of the era" meaning that the Jedi during that time believed Yoda to be that way during the time that Yoda was part of the Jedi Order. Which would mean for the last maybe 8-9 centuries, Yoda was 'considered' the greatest Jedi. That has nothing to do with all the Jedi who had come before him in the Old Republic eras and such.

 

How many Jedi have been able to match Yoda's feats other than Luke? Don't worry I'll wait.....

 

A lot of what people are hinging their arguments on are things taken out of context and Character Statements litered with hyperbole. Most of your and some others arguments rely entirely upon these character statements.

 

I am using something called "logic." I am making educated conclusions based on the evidence I have provided, but MOSTLY the lack there of, meaning, since there is NO evidence to say otherwise, then it is SAFE to assume that what I am saying is correct UNTIL something else comes along to prove me wrong. That is how a debate works.

 

You don't just say "well there's no evidence to SPECIFICALLY support you so we're at an impasse" otherwise, not a lot could ever be truly debated. But based on the fact that there is NOTHING to counter what I am saying, and the fact that I can make logical leaps based on what I have provided, then if it safe to say that I am correct.

 

To dumb it down for you; if you can't provide evidence to counter me, then you have no leg to stand on because you can talk a good game all you want, it still won't mean you're right.

 

 

 

That's not what it means. a Gary Stu/Mary Sue is a character that is overpowered for no other reason than to be overpowered. In most cases it's a character formed of bad writing and then the Writer has to whip up a Deus Ex Machina to stop it.

 

No one said anything about writing. This is about him being the most powerful, and it's safe to assume that you recognize that, shoddy writing aside (which isn't really shoddy imo but that's another debate.)

[Jonoku]

This thread is just like, Adrian Peterson Vs. Reggie White, it can't be proven lol.

[DarthJopeous]

As the title suggests, if Vader were pitted against any of the following sith, who would be the victor?

 

 

Vader vs. Caedus

Vader vs. Sion

Vader vs. Nihilus

Vader vs. Exar Kun

Vader vs. Vitiate

 

Vader can't beat Ashoka Tano or Starkiller so doubt he can beat some of the listed characters.. He would die one shot to some of them. He couldn't survive tossing Sidious down the shaft and dark energy hit him, he was finished. Nihilus would eat vader. Caedus would defeat vader. Vitiate is overrated and terribly written character. Vader would beat Vitate for sure. Vitiate couldn't beat a Jedi knight (with no force powers) so its up vader's alley.

 

Vader vs Sion. Vader a edge but not sure since Sion really can't die. He let himself die in KOTOR2 since he liked exile.

 

Vader vs Exar Kun. He definitely would have a shot to win him.

Edited July 11, 2012 by DarthJopeous

[Wolfninjajedi]

Vader can't beat Ashoka Tano or Starkiller so doubt he can beat some of the listed characters.. He would die one shot to some of them. He couldn't survive tossing Sidious down the shaft and dark energy hit him, he was finished. Nihilus would eat vader. Caedus would defeat vader. Vitiate is overrated and terribly written character. Vader would beat Vitate for sure. Vitiate couldn't beat a Jedi knight (with no force powers) so its up vader's alley.

 

Vader vs Sion. Vader a edge but not sure since Sion really can't die. He let himself die in KOTOR2 since he liked exile.

 

Vader vs Exar Kun. He definitely would have a shot to win him.

 

Vader could wipe the floor with Ashoka, with Galen the first time Galen barely won and the 2nd Vader wasn't even trying.

[scurrymacleod]

Ya...no. Vader was a true sith lord, and Palpatine is the most powerful sith lord. He would laugh at the dark council in this era and the emperor, before showing them the true power of the darkside. Post ROTS, Vader became far more powerful then he was before, he didn't reach his full potential mind you but that doesn't mean he still couldn't grow in power and in fact suspected by Sidious he could have still reached his full potential but him doubting himself at what he had done, and what he became he could never accomplish it.

 

no way sidious is or was the most powerful. according to the rule of two setup by Bane, to claim the title of master, you needed to beat the current master in a battle that would test the master and apprentice to their limits (see the last book in the Bane cycle). sidious killed pleagus in his drunken sleep, and pleagus killed his master in an underhanded way (caused a cave-in that buried him). palp liked to claim he was the most powerful, but he never proved it.

[MaceTowani]

no way sidious is or was the most powerful. according to the rule of two setup by Bane, to claim the title of master, you needed to beat the current master in a battle that would test the master and apprentice to their limits (see the last book in the Bane cycle). sidious killed pleagus in his drunken sleep, and pleagus killed his master in an underhanded way (caused a cave-in that buried him). palp liked to claim he was the most powerful, but he never proved it.

 

Palpatine doesn't have to prove it. Canon does.