Discussion about this so-called "huge loss of subs"

[Gamstun]

Although this was very eloquently put, LOL, it proceeds from a false premise, and a false understanding of how business and MMORPGs function.

 

It is not a shooter like "call of duty" where the game is released complete in all aspects. It is an ongoing MMORPG that launches as a shell then continues to add content over the next 5 to 10 years. To expect a finish product is to expect an entire different genre.

 

i know how mmo's work, i've played plenty and i'veplayed plenty of FPSs.

 

what you're false understanding is is that i don't understand MMO's elvove.

 

I know they do.

 

but they also should be released in as solid working order as possible.

 

if something as simple as master loot is bugged in this game, if the staple raid EV is so bugged in this game, if so many people are having performance issues, if so many people are having class quests bug, if FPs like d-7 (replicator droid) are so bugged, if customer service wasn't so horrid, if i had time i'd go on and on

 

if ALL these bugs and issues are present at release and most are still present, the "shell" of the game is broken, which is exactly why we're seeing so many people leaving, so many angry posts in the CS forums and the reason why this very thread exists in the first place.

 

i don't expect ANY mmo to be finished on release, that's just silly, but i do expect them to be much more bug and trouble free than i have seen from the staff at BW/EA....

[Kthx]

Everything on the forums is exaggerated.

 

Gaming forums represent a tiny, but vocal share of the player community.

[maxetius]

I don't have time to login and play every day. Busy schedule, family, work, etc.

 

 

I'm probably in the majority. TOR entertains the hell out of me... when I can play it. As it is, its more than worth the sub fee. What's one less hamburger and fries.

Edited February 29, 2012 by maxetius

[Gamstun]

Exactly.

 

Each complaint that I've read (granted, not a scientific sampling, but sampling none the less) eventually boiled down to excessive expectations (demand to restore a level 29 blue immediately), or user error in reporting the issue.

 

I've put in 8 tickets. Every one was escalated within 24 hours. That is company policy. My grand accomplishment in this area was that I deleted my main one morning (oops). I came here, read up on the proper procedure for reporting, included the proper keyword. I received a Whisper in game from a customer service rep that asked, very politely, if it would be ok for me to log off for five minutes so that they could restore my character. It took six hours, on a Saturday, to get me back up and running.

 

I give their customer service high marks.

 

what a crock of BS

 

i waited three weeks for a reply only to have them tell me i didn't provide the proper information in THEIR BLANK FORM.

 

ticket closed, no contact and told i have to issue another one.

 

nothing asking for that information, nothing to my email account on file.

 

just closed and moved on.

 

that is PISS POOR CS and you're either lying or one of the few that actually received decent CS, tho my guess is you're lying.

[hegyitaho]

Then you don't have much experience.

 

The initial launch was decent-- long login queues (2-5+ hours on my server) weren't unexpected by MMO vets, but I wouldn't call them evidence of a first rate launch.

 

However, things quickly went downhill from there.

 

Every patch has either not fixed something that was supposed to be fixed, or broken something that was previously not broken. It's BY FAR been the worst showing of patch QA that I've ever seen.

 

Customer service has been a nightmare-- just the idiocy of saying "oh, that patch note that's been up for 2 weeks on the PTS and also passed the Live Push vetting was actually a mistake" was staggering. Seeing in-game responses of "please check the forums to see if there's a solution to your problem. Ticket closed" just doesn't hack it when someone's character is stuck and unaccessible.

 

Promised game mechanics have been a disaster-- crafting literally serves no purpose, other than the ridiculously overpowered initial biomed schematics which have since been corrected. Now, it's pointless.

 

Ilum was touted as world pvp, but began as an exercise in point flipping that actually disincentivized killing opponents, then devolved into a bugged mess of zerg on zerg, and is now about to be rendered completely moot.

 

Bug/Exploit responses have been horrifically slow, and/or shockingly ineffective. Frozen shockwater, Voidstar door glitching, Ilum turret farming, Huttball instant death pulls, the entire "stuff not counting toward quests" bugs, the Operations bugs (they fixed Soa... nvm, they broke Soa worse.) The list goes on and on.

 

On top of all that, the endgame design is just... poor. Gear progression makes no sense in terms of time spent vs. benefit gained. Endgame crafting is a joke. Endgame PvE is a joke (my guild of pvp-geared pvp'ers cleared all hard mode operations bosses, minus the aforementioned buggy Soa, in less than 20 total raid-hours.) Endgame PvP is a joke-- no rating system, no full group queues, no player investment in bases, battlekeeps, etc, Ilum, etc.

 

Daniel Erickson was quoted as saying "we're betting heavily on the re-roll game" at one point early last year, and that was clearly truthful. Unfortunately, re-rolling for a new story doesn't even work for some of the KoToR fans, since the amount of time you spend in your class story pales in comparison to the time you spend doing the same stupid quests you've already done on Taris, or Balmorra, or Belsavis.

 

Anyway, point is the subscription loss, however slight or severe, is a symptom of the disease-- this game is a poor excuse for an MMO. As someone else pointed out, if it'd been released as KoToR3, With MMO Elements, at least it would've been branded and billed correctly.

 

As it is, all we got was a poorly delivered, uninspired MMO that's a waste of subscription money.

 

well said although a bit tl;dr. it's infuriating to still have fps issues (560ti, phenomII x4, 8 gigs ddr3 ram) even on the lowest settings pvp is still around 25 fps, ilum is 1 digit. and don't start with the "you should have a better hardware" because mmos should be extremely scalable. even if it was a good game with actual content and good pvp system (don't care about pve) the fps issue would still kill it. waste of money on this whole thing.

[Spell_Bound]

Alright, I'll feed the troll for a second.

The product is not "broken".

You can sign in and play.

You can make your way to max level.

You can roll alts.

You can perform professions.

You have some, granted not a ton, but some endgame content.

 

The product itself is not broken, merely your will to work around a few temporary problems, and thus your incessant need to complain on the forums about how the game is "broken".

If you are this unhappy, unsub and leave the forums, and go do something that will entertain you more.

Edited March 1, 2012 by Trineda
remove quote

[OldBenSmokin]

Then you don't have much experience.

 

The initial launch was decent-- long login queues (2-5+ hours on my server) weren't unexpected by MMO vets, but I wouldn't call them evidence of a first rate launch.

 

However, things quickly went downhill from there.

 

Every patch has either not fixed something that was supposed to be fixed, or broken something that was previously not broken. It's BY FAR been the worst showing of patch QA that I've ever seen.

 

Customer service has been a nightmare-- just the idiocy of saying "oh, that patch note that's been up for 2 weeks on the PTS and also passed the Live Push vetting was actually a mistake" was staggering. Seeing in-game responses of "please check the forums to see if there's a solution to your problem. Ticket closed" just doesn't hack it when someone's character is stuck and unaccessible.

 

Promised game mechanics have been a disaster-- crafting literally serves no purpose, other than the ridiculously overpowered initial biomed schematics which have since been corrected. Now, it's pointless.

 

Ilum was touted as world pvp, but began as an exercise in point flipping that actually disincentivized killing opponents, then devolved into a bugged mess of zerg on zerg, and is now about to be rendered completely moot.

 

Bug/Exploit responses have been horrifically slow, and/or shockingly ineffective. Frozen shockwater, Voidstar door glitching, Ilum turret farming, Huttball instant death pulls, the entire "stuff not counting toward quests" bugs, the Operations bugs (they fixed Soa... nvm, they broke Soa worse.) The list goes on and on.

 

On top of all that, the endgame design is just... poor. Gear progression makes no sense in terms of time spent vs. benefit gained. Endgame crafting is a joke. Endgame PvE is a joke (my guild of pvp-geared pvp'ers cleared all hard mode operations bosses, minus the aforementioned buggy Soa, in less than 20 total raid-hours.) Endgame PvP is a joke-- no rating system, no full group queues, no player investment in bases, battlekeeps, etc, Ilum, etc.

 

Daniel Erickson was quoted as saying "we're betting heavily on the re-roll game" at one point early last year, and that was clearly truthful. Unfortunately, re-rolling for a new story doesn't even work for some of the KoToR fans, since the amount of time you spend in your class story pales in comparison to the time you spend doing the same stupid quests you've already done on Taris, or Balmorra, or Belsavis.

 

Anyway, point is the subscription loss, however slight or severe, is a symptom of the disease-- this game is a poor excuse for an MMO. As someone else pointed out, if it'd been released as KoToR3, With MMO Elements, at least it would've been branded and billed correctly.

 

As it is, all we got was a poorly delivered, uninspired MMO that's a waste of subscription money.

 

Well said. QFT.

 

Hard pill for some to swallow, understandably.

Edited February 29, 2012 by OldBenSmokin

[Barracudastr]

Red herring, ad hominem. Attack the arguer personally rather then the argument as a means of detracting from and replacing the argument. In this case resulting from an inability to contradict the veracity of the argument put forth.

 

 

 

Conjecture, logical fallacy (Mind projection). You are assuming that your view is absolute and doing so without providing substance as a means of qualifying your assumption. We would first have to conclusively demonstrate that the game is "broken", or is not working as intended prior to making the accusation. In this case that cannot be done unless one held expectation that was counter to the promise of the supplier.

 

Pretty sure in game footage featuring high res textures then shipping the game with piss poor textures can be put under the category of bait and switch/ false advertising.

 

Or are all the videos that are used in marketing this game not actually marketing videos in your eyes?

 

lol please.

 

Oh then on top of that getting an official statement claiming that the higher quality settings were a bug and have been removed.... yet they filmed all their marketing shots and promo vids using those settings?

 

Oh wait let me guess people dont buy games based on looks either amiright?

Edited February 29, 2012 by Barracudastr

[reaperkeepet]

What? No idea what this is about huge loss in subs. We have not dropped our 2mil subs and we most likely won't.

 

>.>

 

<.<

Edited February 29, 2012 by reaperkeepet

[Icebaron]

Alright, I'll feed the troll for a second.

The product is not "broken".

You can sign in and play.

You can make your way to max level.

You can roll alts.

You can perform professions.

You have some, granted not a ton, but some endgame content.

 

The product itself is not broken, merely your will to work around a few temporary problems, and thus your incessant need to complain on the forums about how the game is "broken".

If you are this unhappy, unsub and leave the forums, and go do something that will entertain you more.

 

You are right, I wouldn't call the game broken.

 

A huge failure maybe. A con job. A crime against both Star Wars and MMO's in general. A blow to the industry.

 

But no, not broken.

[Barracudastr]

What? No idea what this is about huge loss in subs.

 

>.>

 

<.<

 

I see you blindly defending this game in every thread claiming people are either trolling or imagining things.

 

Yet I guess the thousands of people in these forums daily posting about it are all wrong while the handful of you defend tooth and nail.

 

Ask people in game what they think of the game and its subs then grab some popcorn. This game is in a very poor state.

 

The community has grown rotten in game and out of game.

[Meldwyn]

Trying to convince someone who is enjoying TOR that they shouldn't is kinda pointless, regardless of how much disappointment you feel. Edited March 1, 2012 by Trineda
removed quote

[AJediKnight]

You are right, I wouldn't call the game broken.

 

A huge failure maybe. A con job. A crime against both Star Wars and MMO's in general. A blow to the industry.

 

But no, not broken.

 

Lol. This. This over and over and over again/

[Blackardin]

i know how mmo's work, i've played plenty and i'veplayed plenty of FPSs.

 

what you're false understanding is is that i don't understand MMO's elvove.

 

I know they do.

 

but they also should be released in as solid working order as possible.

 

Name one that has? ;p

 

If you are making this claim, then it is apparent that you do not quite understand how they work, grow, mature. Keep in mind that we are not discussin MMOs, but MMORPGs under the umbrella of MMO. No game to date (and I have been there for all the big names) has launched either complete, or without bugs. All have required fast and drastic implementation of software modification, all shipped unfinished, all underwent change.

 

if something as simple as master loot is bugged in this game, if the staple raid EV is so bugged in this game, if so many people are having performance issues, if so many people are having class quests bug, if FPs like d-7 (replicator droid) are so bugged, if customer service wasn't so horrid, if i had time i'd go on and on

 

Again, fallacy of mind projection. I believe, therefore it is.

 

You would have to first demonstrate that these claims are actually occurring. I've had 8 dealings with customer service. Not a one was an issue and one was exceptional. Each and every complaint that I've read eventually boiled down to a far different scenario then the complainer first demonstrated, including the insinuation that company policy was ignored.

 

In regard to fixes, one would then have to understand how coding worked in order to understand that it is not as simple as a flip of a switch. As a point of contention that this game is not at all "broken", I give you Wow's release. Months after the release the loot system was still broken, end game was not fully developed, people were still falling through the world, mobs were killing people through walls, servers were still crashing, and a host of additional bugs.

 

To argue a games failure, in comparison to other like games, using examples that are more the norm then the exception is not a solid argument.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Blackardin

[reaperkeepet]

I see you blindly defending this game in every thread claiming people are either trolling or imagining things.

 

Yet I guess the thousands of people in these forums daily posting about it are all wrong while the handful of you defend tooth and nail.

 

Ask people in game what they think of the game and its subs then grab some popcorn. This game is in a very poor state.

 

The community has grown rotten in game and out of game.

 

Oh, hey look, it's the person who tried to speak out against me when your thread got closed. Really though. The reason because there are so many "OMG THIS GAME HAS PHAILED HAHAHAHA" or "I am quitting and unsubbing" threads is because they are all on the forums and not playing the game like the people that like TOR. Use logic my friend.

Edited February 29, 2012 by reaperkeepet

[Icebaron]

If you are making this claim, then it is apparent that you do not quite understand how they work, grow, mature. Keep in mind that we are not discussin MMOs, but MMORPGs under the umbrella of MMO. No game to date (and I have been there for all the big names) has launched either complete, or without bugs. All have required fast and drastic implementation of software modification, all shipped unfinished, all underwent change.

 

 

 

Again, fallacy of mind projection. I believe, therefore it is.

 

You would have to first demonstrate that these claims are actually occurring. I've had 8 dealings with customer service. Not a one was an issue and one was exceptional. Each and every complaint that I've read eventually boiled down to a far different scenario then the complainer first demonstrated, including the insinuation that company policy was ignored.

 

In regard to fixes, one would then have to understand how coding worked in order to understand that it is not as simple as a flip of a switch. As a point of contention that this game is not at all "broken", I give you Wow's release. Months after the release the loot system was still broken, end game was not fully developed, people were still falling through the world, mobs were killing people through walls, servers were still crashing, and a host of additional bugs.

 

To argue a games failure, in comparison to other like games, using examples that are more the norm then the exception is not a solid argument.

 

And yet WoW kept doubling their sub base while SWTOR keeps bleeds subs away. Why is that?

[OldBenSmokin]

You can point to your debating fallacies handbook till you're blue in the face, it doesn't invalidate anything they've said. Edited February 29, 2012 by OldBenSmokin

[Blackardin]

what a crock of BS

 

i waited three weeks for a reply only to have them tell me i didn't provide the proper information in THEIR BLANK FORM.

 

ticket closed, no contact and told i have to issue another one.

 

nothing asking for that information, nothing to my email account on file.

 

just closed and moved on.

 

that is PISS POOR CS and you're either lying or one of the few that actually received decent CS, tho my guess is you're lying.

 

What is my motivation for lying? Do you not believe that if I had poor customer service response that I would not be right here adding that to the discussion? Would you like my character list from this game so as to demonstrate that I actually play the game? Would you like the one from my last game, last three games?

 

What was the issue you had? How did you fill out the form? When did you follow up on it. Did you wait three weeks, or did you follow up on it sooner? Did you take a minute to come to the customer service board and read up on your issue and how to expedite it? Did you put in the proper keyword as given many, many times by CS personnel on the CS board?

 

As I stated, most of the complaints, when pushed by other posters resulted in user error. Certainly there are some that slip through the cracks, but to disparage the entirety of the system based on your one mishap is about as logical as disparaging the entirety of the game because of a single graphics bug.

[Blackardin]

You can point to your debating fallacies handbook till you're blue in the face, it doesn't invalidate anything they're saying.

 

Actually, it invalidates everything they are saying. ;p

[Blackardin]

The five warnings on my account would argue differently. LOL

 

Nope. just calling out the unsubstantiated nonsense is all. ;p

Edited March 1, 2012 by Trineda
removed quote

[OldBenSmokin]

Actually, it invalidates everything they are saying. ;p

Why did I read that in Dwight's voice?

 

 

 

And yea, the paid shill nonsense is tiresome.

Edited February 29, 2012 by OldBenSmokin

[Icebaron]

What is my motivation for lying? Do you not believe that if I had poor customer service response that I would not be right here adding that to the discussion? Would you like my character list from this game so as to demonstrate that I actually play the game? Would you like the one from my last game, last three games?

 

What was the issue you had? How did you fill out the form? When did you follow up on it. Did you wait three weeks, or did you follow up on it sooner? Did you take a minute to come to the customer service board and read up on your issue and how to expedite it? Did you put in the proper keyword as given many, many times by CS personnel on the CS board?

 

As I stated, most of the complaints, when pushed by other posters resulted in user error. Certainly there are some that slip through the cracks, but to disparage the entirety of the system based on your one mishap is about as logical as disparaging the entirety of the game because of a single graphics bug.

 

Don't know about him, but I can give you my example of CS nightmare.

 

Had a character I didn't like his eye color on, he was only lvl 5 so I deleted him and created a new guy by the same name. Mailed the new guy 40k credits. Never got it.

Submitted a ticket saying

"My bank alt Norabeci mailed my character named Khalm 40,000 credits and never got it. Please fix this."

One week later I got an email saying I didn't provide enough information. Please tell them the name of the sender, the name of the reciever, the server it happened on and the items lost in the mail. (An obvious chain letter if you ask me)

I stated again the name of all parties involved, the amount mailed and added the server (the only one I had characters on).

Two weeks after that they sent me an email saying the issue cannot be resolved because too much time had passed.

 

Three weeks to tell me they couldn't do what WoW could of done in 3 hours.

[AJediKnight]

Don't know about him, but I can give you my example of CS nightmare.

 

Had a character I didn't like his eye color on, he was only lvl 5 so I deleted him and created a new guy by the same name. Mailed the new guy 40k credits. Never got it.

Submitted a ticket saying

"My bank alt Norabeci mailed my character named Khalm 40,000 credits and never got it. Please fix this."

One week later I got an email saying I didn't provide enough information. Please tell them the name of the sender, the name of the reciever, the server it happened on and the items lost in the mail. (An obvious chain letter if you ask me)

I stated again the name of all parties involved, the amount mailed and added the server (the only one I had characters on).

Two weeks after that they sent me an email saying the issue cannot be resolved because too much time had passed.

 

Three weeks to tell me they couldn't do what WoW could of done in 3 hours.

 

Yeah, see, that's called customer service. In TOR, CS stands for customers suck. Most people don't realize that. It's basically Bioware's middle finger to the subscriber base.

[Spell_Bound]

This was specifically designed not to be a thread for bashing the game, and clearly, it has become that.

 

I have seen enough of what I needed to see, and that most (not all of, but most) of the people quitting the game are extremely immature, uneducated about certain situations and above all else, impatient beyond belief, assuming that if this were a survey, very few quitting the game had much else to say other than THIS SUCKS IM GONE.

 

For those unsubbing with thoughtful input, thank you.

For those sticking around with thoughtful input, thank you.

 

For those flaming/trolling in this thread or just bashing the game because you don't like it, find something better to do with your time.

 

EDIT: And to those who debated directly with me, an extra thanks to you. Just wanted to see what the demographic of the ideas on the forums was

Edited February 29, 2012 by Spell_Bound

[Barracudastr]

Oh, hey look, it's the person who tried to speak out against me when your thread got closed. Really though. The reason because there are so many "OMG THIS GAME HAS PHAILED HAHAHAHA" or "I am quitting and unsubbing" threads is because they are all on the forums and not playing the game like the people that like TOR. Use logic my friend.

 

Yet I didn't say either of those things.

 

I said the game in a few months is gonna be in the could have been great but isn't pile.

 

I didn't say anything about unsubbing.

 

I didn't say it was fail.

 

I simply said bioware is refusing to acknowledge server issues and it needs to change or the future is dim for swtor.

 

Now I am not sure where in your ignorant postings you got that I said im unsubbing or that its already failed from but you keep on trying.

 

How bout you try reading threads before going off.

 

PS. We are not friends. Your logic and ignorance is amusing though try harder next time.

Edited February 29, 2012 by Barracudastr