The thought that WoW has more endgame content

[Lethality]

Good thing all of those are you opinions, because as a 6 year vet of that game my experiences where the exact opposite.

 

They're my opinions too.

[Lethality]

Didn't bother to go through all the pages of this thread, but has anyone mentioned the fact that Blizzard has been rehashing old dungeons/raids since WOTLK, and will continue this trend in MoP? Or that Blizzard has one of (if not the) slowest development times to release new content?

 

If BioWare can keep pace with their current content release schedule (2 major content patches in ~3 months, no idea on their timetable for expansions) and Blizzard continues their slow content release schedule (a major content patch ~6 months + expansion every 1 1/2-2 years) they will surpass Blizzard in endgame (and fluff) content in a relatively short amount of time, time that all MMO's need to expand upon the foundation that is the launch product.

 

You cannot possibly be calling 1.1 a content patch in the same way, for example, 4.3 was a content patch for WoW.

[Dayfax]

You mean if subs shrink to much, if they keep a steady 1.5 to 2 million subscribers i dont think anything will slow to a crawl i think that is a formidable subscription base. At 1 million subs the game is on profitable supposedly. So at 2 million it should be quite a profitable endevour.

 

No, I mean if they don't grow. If you're not actively growing in the MMO space, your game is dying, because these games have an almost natural attrition built into them. Worse, you're much more vulnerable to the competition that comes up every year.

 

The only exception to this are really super-niche games like EVE, because they're offering a style of gameplay that can't be found in AAA titles.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Dayfax

[Ansultares]

SWTOR is 2 months old and we have already seen new operation and flashpoint and next one will be in few weeks time alongside new warzone, at that rate SWTOR will have more content then WoW in no time.

Really bad content.

 

Does every dungeon have to be a continuous hallway? Is that really necessary? Oversimplification of the dungeons in BC is what drove me away from WoW, and I'm really disappointed with what I've seen so far in TOR.

 

I don't know why they'd put themselves under this kind of pressure to release new content when they could just design something more complex and fleshed out that could keep players occupied for several months.

 

I haven't been able to bring myself to run a flashpoint more than twice, regardless of whether I got all the drops I want or not. They're not awful, just shallow.

Edited March 3, 2012 by Ansultares

[RabidPopcorn]

Really bad content.

 

Does every dungeon have to be a continuous hallway? Is that really necessary? Oversimplification of the dungeons in BC is what drove me away from WoW, and I'm really disappointed with what I've seen so far in TOR.

 

I don't know why they'd put themselves under this kind of pressure to release new content when they could just design something more complex and fleshed out that could keep players occupied for several months.

 

I haven't been able to bring myself to run a flashpoint more than twice, regardless of whether I got all the drops I want or not. They're not awful, just shallow.

 

Yeah a quest area similar to something like Blackrock Mountain would be nice; Blackrock Mountain had a whole lot of lore surrounding it and was thus able to generate lots of quests and dungeons for players - e.g. Blackrock Depths was a rather interesting dungeon (10-man raidable in the early days) which allowed players to explore parts of the dungeons without the need to complete the entire dungeon, but they still could complete it if they wanted to. Then you had Blackrock Spire, which linked two separate dungeons, LBRS and UBRS with a shared entrance. Then all of it culminated with the Molten Core.

 

The idea was that players would slowly discover more bits of the story and eventually be lead to the ultimate end-game boss; but the process was slow and arduous, involving many repeated runs and tons of other quests on the side (attunement, fire-resist gear etc). Ultimately, in the grand scheme of things WoW managed to keep the suspense level high, but would always reward you every now and then for progressing - however little - along the way, leaving the players asking for more.

 

Now we come back to SWTOR, and the lead-up to the Eternity Vault could not have been more disappointing (for some) - you hit a certain level and *ding* you get the mission to kill Soa. I understand there are benefits associated with this, but such an 'instant' approach is making some people complain about 'lack of end-game content'. Frankly, SWTOR doesn't even need two end-game operations (and multiple difficulties), it could just do with EV alone but made harder such that by the time people beat Soa, BioWare would have released a whole new quest-chain for the next end-game. OR, they could have made Karagga's harder so EV becomes MC, and Karagga becomes BWL.

 

As it stands, some people are beating Soa (or Karagga) and then going, what next? Sure, let's beat them on Nightmare; but is doing the same operation really that much satisfying than getting a whole new one?

 

I do hope that the SWTOR team comes up with something more epic than what is currently in place; perhaps we may even see server-wide events like the opening of the gates of AQ.

 

Note: I support the the idea to allow most players to experience end-game content; I didn't think that making some raids so inacessible in WoW was a 'good' thing, but at least they made it challenging and rewarding.

Edited March 3, 2012 by RabidPopcorn

[Littletza]

bla bla bla.

 

Why are you referring to WoW at its release? Are you really thinking that devs haven't learnt anything from the past?

 

FYI you can thank Anarchy Online for the extensive use of instances or did TOR devs come up with that as well....just as the wow devs did?.

[Jxspyder]

And most things are what paying players are looking for.

 

No, most things are what YOU are looking for. That's it.

 

Here's an example. I'm a paying player, most of that list is utter trash. See how that works?

[Raeln]

When WoW first launched it had over 2 years of log on every day material, 3 hours of content to do whether it was raids/leveling up/farming mats/helping guildies get geared/pvp etc. There was no need for dailies or battlegrounds in beginning, the game kept you hooked on it's own merits.

 

No it didn't.

 

At launch, WoW had no structured PvP (no battlegrounds, no ranking, no honor point system, no Arena) - the only PvP was open world and it was pointless as no one could force any zone ownership changes.

 

At launch, WoW had two raid encounters. Both required immense amounts of fire resist gear that dropped on RNG loot tables. You might get decked out in fire resist in 1 month or 6 months. It absolutely sucked as a raid group to hear, "guys, raid cancelled, we don't still dont' have enough FR" or to hear, "heys, let's go cheese UBRS for the fire resist buff for Rag" - which took about an hour of twiddling around mind controlling spellcasters and casting on 72 people.

 

Also, WoW did not have raid frames at all. Think about that. Healers could only see the health bar of those in their single group at launch.

 

Then Blizzard realized the only way to increase its playerbase was to make the game more casual friendly (which helped me as I am one). So flash forward to Catacylsm where this is 10 times more content then Vanilla but there is no 'sticky' factor that keeps players on the hamster wheel like Vanilla had. SWTOR ship jumpers see that as proof of WoW faltering but don't realize the same crisis in the WoW model is taking havoc on SWTOR. It's been over a month why haven't they announced 2 million active subs? Cause this model doesn't work anymore.

 

I don't think it's the "casual" aspect removing the "hamster wheel" so much as it is a mixture of various factors combined, including a downsized economy, people hesitant to leave their friends in other games, people not wanting to "start over" in a new game, and some number of people just getting tired/needing a break from MMO's in general.

 

It's no secret that TOR end game is still the same gear up/raid/new content patch/gear up/raid cycle just like WoW is. That gets old.

[Raeln]

Putting in content that should of been released with the game is not a content patch.

 

Well shoot, if you want to claim that - then half of WoW's content patches aren't content patches and should have been released with the main expansion release.

[Raeln]

You cannot possibly be calling 1.1 a content patch in the same way, for example, 4.3 was a content patch for WoW.

 

1.1 was more of a content patch than WoW's ZG/ZA patch was.

 

Note: both were content patches. They both added content that was not available before the patch.

[Gilmcnab]

To de-bunk and explain some thoughts

 

Thought #1 WoW has more raid content

 

False - Ever since BC WoW has implemented 2 instances in the first raid tier of an expansion. We are seeing, so far, the same model in TOR. Cataclysm was the exception to this in WoW but the raids easily were considered one raid as clearing both BOT/BWL in one night was common place.

 

Thought #2 TOR raids are too easy vs. WoW

 

False and LOL @ Cataclysm and Wrath. WoW raids haven't been difficult since BC and the 2nd and 3rd tiers of the past 2 expansions, even on HM, difficulty has been laughable. The first tier in Cataclysm was easy before everyone complained of its difficulty and subsequently got nerfed. Although the difficulty in TOR isn't very high WoW is not any more difficult.

 

Thought #3 There is nothing to do in TOR at endgame vs. WoW

 

And what is there to do in WoW? Farm dailies, grind dungeons, raid, farm achievements. Looks pretty similar to the TOR endgame to me. No, TOR doesn't have as many dailies but we're really splitting hairs here. There are no achievements in TOR as of yet but if you are farming achievements you must be pretty bored with a game to do so. MMO's have a grind to get gear at endgame and TOR hasn't changed anything up.

 

Thought #4 TOR is more aimed at casuals than WoW

 

Really? LFR is all that needs to be said on that. There is nothing wrong with being a casual, some people realize life is more important than a video game but you can't say WoW isn't aimed at a casual market. In this day and age all MMO's are going to be catering to a casual audience, that is how the market has changed and this is how developer's are going to adapt to stay afloat int he marketplace.

 

I was not a shot at saying TOR is better than WoW, everyone has their own opinion. These are just some facts that I wanted to throw out there that really in some circumstance these games are pretty even leveled.

 

You're right... TOR really is just an inferior WoW clone... You sir, have opened my eyes.

[Zhit]

No it didn't.

 

At launch, WoW had no structured PvP (no battlegrounds, no ranking, no honor point system, no Arena) - the only PvP was open world and it was pointless as no one could force any zone ownership changes.

 

Raeln--I think you hit the nail on the head. Not sure anyone said it better--TOR would have been a great game if it had been released in 2005. It is surprising that smaller companies, Like Tiron, can release a game like Rift--a game that met many of the expectations of the modern MMO gamer at release. Yet the BW team struggles to create a game worth paying the subscription fee.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Zhit

[Gerandar]

Thought #2 TOR raids are too easy vs. WoW

 

False and LOL @ Cataclysm and Wrath. WoW raids haven't been difficult since BC and the 2nd and 3rd tiers of the past 2 expansions, even on HM, difficulty has been laughable. The first tier in Cataclysm was easy before everyone complained of its difficulty and subsequently got nerfed. Although the difficulty in TOR isn't very high WoW is not any more difficult.

 

The fact that you think the burning crusade raids were hard is funny, Raids in WoW went downhill once BC was released, the only "hard" raid in TBC was Sunwell and even that wasn't much of an issue for the diehard raiders.

[Icebaron]

The fact that you think the burning crusade raids were hard is funny, Raids in WoW went downhill once BC was released, the only "hard" raid in TBC was Sunwell and even that wasn't much of an issue for the diehard raiders.

 

There is no way you can claim this. BC raids (prior to nerfs) were waaaaaay more complicated and challenging then anything in SWTOR today.

 

Magtheridon and SCC were easy? whatever....

[Raeln]

Raeln--I think you hit the nail on the head. Not sure anyone said it better--TOR would have been a great game if it had been released in 2005. It is surprising that smaller companies, Like Tiron, can release a game like Rift--a game that met many of the expectations of the modern MMO gamer at release. Yet the BW team struggles to create a game worth paying the subscription fee.

 

I played Rift, started playing 2 weeks after release. The only real difference between Rift and TOR is the loading screens between planets, multispecs and only one person needs to reach the dungeon portal for the group to get a teleport offering.

 

Rift was a large letdown to me because they practically ignored their "cool" invasion mechanic in lieu of the common raid for gear mechanic. I didn't leave Rift because I hated the game, I was unable to entice any of my WoW friends to come over to Rift. Some bought and tried it (or toyed on my account), then deemed it not enough different from WoW to make the switch. Rift being medieval fantasy, I can understand that - at least now anyway.

 

Dual spec will show up here eventually. It's just unreasonable to expect a new release to have every single aspect of a game that has been live for almost a decade.

 

As for TOR not worth paying a subscription fee? are you serious? TOR is worth the price of a can of soda per day. Really. I know people that pay $10 a day for energy drinks - 10 minutes and that $2 can is empty and you are claiming TOR isn't worth 50 cents a day?

Edited March 5, 2012 by Raeln

[Rushhhh]

To de-bunk and explain some thoughts

 

Thought #1 WoW has more raid content

 

Thought #2 TOR raids are too easy vs. WoW

 

False and LOL @ Cataclysm and Wrath. WoW raids haven't been difficult since BC

 

Thought #3 There is nothing to do in TOR at endgame vs. WoW

 

Thought #4 TOR is more aimed at casuals than WoW

 

 

I was not a shot at saying TOR is better than WoW, everyone has their own opinion. These are just some facts that I wanted to throw out there that really in some circumstance these games are pretty even leveled.

 

You have to understand that wow is kind of standard what game should be.

Wow had basicly no end game content when it was released, but then there was not competition like today. Its not really a secret that you must have enough / challenging content or game will die

 

#1 you are right, but these raids has been really challenging pre-nerf

 

#2 i have done only few TOR raids, really stoned & drunk - faceroll even i almost couldnt move =)

how about wow raid difficulty .. here is some (pre-nerf ofc):

pre-tbc naxx, twins, muru, big fat guy in da cave, kael, sisters (res-gear issue!), lk25hc, FF25hc .. etc

i quit before cata so cant say much about it ^^ ... but really easy after BC? maybe with 30% buffs but pre-nerfs?

 

#3 in wow you could do achs if you jsut didnt have anything to do .. 3x insane title

i dont see why i should do anything in TOR because it takes like week to get gear that is good enough. no point to do any dungeons after 1 week, even my 2 alts have what they need.

 

#4 yes it is, too few potetial hc-players

 

 

... 1 more thing, have you seen any gold sellers? thats always "good" sign .. so far i have seen 0.

[Raeln]

There is no way you can claim this. BC raids (prior to nerfs) were waaaaaay more complicated and challenging then anything in SWTOR today.

 

Magtheridon and SCC were easy? whatever....

 

Considering there was only one mode available in BC - it's only fair that you compare those same BC raids to Cataclysm normals today.

 

You can't make fun of TOR's normal raids without being intellectually honest enough to bash WoW's current LFR system too.

[Raeln]

You have to understand that wow is kind of standard what game should be.

Wow had basicly no end game content when it was released, but then there was not competition like today. Its not really a secret that you must have enough / challenging content or game will die

 

#1 you are right, but these raids has been really challenging pre-nerf

 

...but it had to be nerfed. Why would that be?

 

#2 i have done only few TOR raids, really stoned & drunk - faceroll even i almost couldnt move =)

 

Hrmmm... have you done nightmare mode while really stoned and drunk? I imagine WoW's current LFR difficulty isn't too far away - I know some of my friends say it's really easy.

 

how about wow raid difficulty .. here is some (pre-nerf ofc):

pre-tbc naxx, twins, muru, big fat guy in da cave, kael, sisters (res-gear issue!), lk25hc, FF25hc .. etc

 

Again, wonder why they were nerfed?

 

i quit before cata so cant say much about it ^^ ... but really easy after BC? maybe with 30% buffs but pre-nerfs?

 

You keep mentioning these nerfs...

 

#3 in wow you could do achs if you jsut didnt have anything to do .. 3x insane title

i dont see why i should do anything in TOR because it takes like week to get gear that is good enough. no point to do any dungeons after 1 week, even my 2 alts have what they need.

 

TOR has a type of achievement right now, it's called the Codex. Also - almost no one actually finished the insane title. Oh sure, there might have been one or three per server but it was called the "insane in the membrane" achievement for a reason.

 

#4 yes it is, too few potetial hc-players

 

I assume you mean "hardcore players". Do you realize just how small that segment of the MMO genre really is?

 

... 1 more thing, have you seen any gold sellers? thats always "good" sign .. so far i have seen 0.

 

Yes, I've had gold seller spam in TOR. I never dreamed that I would see someone equate gold seller spam with game success.

[Icebaron]

Yes, I've had gold seller spam in TOR. I never dreamed that I would see someone equate gold seller spam with game success.

 

eh, I usually measure a games success by how much spam I get. It is by no means scientific or anything, and there are many vairables that contribute. So lack of gold sellers doesn't mean the game is bad, but an abundance of gold sellers does mean a game is good.

[Kungpaoshizi]

WoW came out like 10 years ago? Of course it does.

 

Why is this even a post lol...

[Raeln]

eh, I usually measure a games success by how much spam I get. It is by no means scientific or anything, and there are many vairables that contribute. So lack of gold sellers doesn't mean the game is bad, but an abundance of gold sellers does mean a game is good.

 

Using that logic, WoW was really successful during Vanilla and must have been complete crap for the last 3 years after they implemented better means to control the amount of spam in-game mail / tells received.

 

I hope you guys realize that the lion share of gold spammer /tells we used to receive in WoW was because trial accounts used to be able to send /tells. That eventually got disabled. Seeing that TOR currently has no trial account system... well, you do the math.

[Gerandar]

There is no way you can claim this. BC raids (prior to nerfs) were waaaaaay more complicated and challenging then anything in SWTOR today.

 

Magtheridon and SCC were easy? whatever....

 

Yes they were, SSC was a ton easier then The Eye and The Eye got nerfed to crap and didnt need it the only raid in TBC that was somewhat hard was Sunwell and Blizzard learned there lesson on making enjoyable raid content after that. now all raids are easy and pointless.

[Rushhhh]

...but it had to be nerfed. Why would that be?

 

 

 

Hrmmm... have you done nightmare mode while really stoned and drunk? I imagine WoW's current LFR difficulty isn't too far away - I know some of my friends say it's really easy.

 

 

 

Again, wonder why they were nerfed?

 

 

 

You keep mentioning these nerfs...

 

 

 

TOR has a type of achievement right now, it's called the Codex. Also - almost no one actually finished the insane title. Oh sure, there might have been one or three per server but it was called the "insane in the membrane" achievement for a reason.

 

 

 

I assume you mean "hardcore players". Do you realize just how small that segment of the MMO genre really is?

 

 

 

Yes, I've had gold seller spam in TOR. I never dreamed that I would see someone equate gold seller spam with game success.

 

 

why raid boss's get nerfed? because ppls cry on forum that its too hard, maybe some were, but atleast i killed most before any nerfs. Which you prefer, too easy content or too hard that in some point will be adjusted so not-so-great players can kill those too?

 

yes i have done nightmares also, dont see what supposed to be hard?

 

almost noone completed insane? there is right, wrong and max power way to troll .. this must be max power way =)

[Raeln]

why raid boss's get nerfed? because ppls cry on forum that its too hard, maybe some were, but atleast i killed most before any nerfs. Which you prefer, too easy content or too hard that in some point will be adjusted so not-so-great players can kill those too?

 

Considering this is an online multiplayer game - I'd prefer the content to be easy. I play these games to have fun with friends, not pull my hair out over problems exaggerated by scheduling and latency issues.

 

yes i have done nightmares also, dont see what supposed to be hard?

 

Too bad they didn't make nightmare modes almost unbeatable.

 

almost noone completed insane? there is right, wrong and max power way to troll .. this must be max power way =)

 

Yes, compare the number of people with the Insane title to the full population of WoW players. Only an extreme few players have the title. I'm not trolling - stop acting like the majority of the playerbase own that title.