Again no love for Commandos in the patch 1.1.5?

[Calavero]

Ever do Ironfist in HM Eseless?

How about Darth Malgus on hardmode?

 

If by balanced you mean required; then yes, fights are balanced around interrupts.

 

 

The fights he's referring to there are bosses in solo class quests.

[RuQu]

The fights he's referring to there are bosses in solo class quests.

 

Really? Cause I could swear I said this a couple of posts ago:

You say "interrupt-enabled classes" as if there was a list of classes with and without. What you meant to say there was "EVERY OTHER CLASS." Now, I'm a pretty big Commando fan (see that sticky up top with my name on it?), but I'd be interested to know what capability we have that no other class has that offsets the lack of a mechanic that the design team assumes everyone has. Note that there are HM FPs where interrupts are key, and if you bring too many Commandos you simply cannot interrupt as needed. We are the only class that suffers from that, any other class can be stacked with no such consequence.

 

Yes, it adds complication to some solo quests, but it is also a problem in HM FPs, where stacking Commandos makes some content undo-able, which is not a problem with other classes.

[VincentWolf]

You do realize you get an instant one every couple min, and a free one as well...

 

Uninterruptable? Come on now, Commando's are tough enough in PVP as is, that would cross well into the OP realm there.

 

We are getting new animations. For mortar volley at least, however if I recall, Georg Zoeller used the plural, which means quite a few tweaks to bring us more in line w/ our imperial conterpart.

 

What else do you want, a big red 'I Win' button? We got one pretty darn close already, it's called full auto.

 

Wrong. Any half decent maradeur and assasin wipes the floor with commando. It really gets highly frustrating, when I see this idiot spotting me from the crowd and rushing exactly to me to stun/interrupt/nuke me first asap. Idea about uninterruptible grav round is actually perfect, since it will give us a nice boost in 1v1, yet it absolutely won't give us any advantage in usual circumstances when we not getting specifinally targeted.

[withonor]

This is such a silly discussion. People are talking about an interrupt like it's a singular thing. There are 4m interrupts and 30m interrupts. You can't argue we should have an interrupt just because everyone else has one unless you want to argue that everyone can interrupt from 30m. Should every melee be able to interrupt 30m away? You don't want to play in that world, then they have to make interrupts needed two to three times as often which leads to many more mistakes and much more frustration.

 

Then quoting someone talking about elites while questing as a balancing point... Please... I can keep an elite from doing major damage simply by using Concussive Charge and Cryo Grenade properly. Not to mention I can solo heroic 4 champions without an interrupt.

 

The way people seem to prefer balance to exist, we might as well have 4 classes total. A tank, a healer, a melee DPS and a range DPS. Then you don't have to worry about liking a class, just like the role.

 

We wear heavy armor. We can heal. We have enough control.

 

As a Commando healer, the only thing I would like, if anything at all, is to have Kolto Bomb have a bigger radius of effect. I don't need it to be "smart", I'm smarter than the programming.

[Lammio]

^^ Said: Kolto Bomb bigger radius.

 

for the rest the Commando is an excellent class and dont need any improvements.

[Soulcheg]

Wrong. Any half decent maradeur and assasin wipes the floor with commando. It really gets highly frustrating, when I see this idiot spotting me from the crowd and rushing exactly to me to stun/interrupt/nuke me first asap. Idea about uninterruptible grav round is actually perfect, since it will give us a nice boost in 1v1, yet it absolutely won't give us any advantage in usual circumstances when we not getting specifinally targeted.

 

+1.

 

It's so nice to see how ANY of our abilities with casttime 1.5s is interrupted by any melee class.

[Shchurk]

lol what changs??? grav round can't be interrupted?? that will never happen thats the only fix that needs to happen. with out grav round the gunnery spec is crap

 

Quit whining about your grav round. Im sick of troopers and Bounty Hunters whining about how they need there already easy rotation to get easier. All you have to do is learn how to play your class and stop standing around in the middle of a WZ for 10 minutes spam clicking.

[RuQu]

This is such a silly discussion. People are talking about an interrupt like it's a singular thing. There are 4m interrupts and 30m interrupts. You can't argue we should have an interrupt just because everyone else has one unless you want to argue that everyone can interrupt from 30m. Should every melee be able to interrupt 30m away? You don't want to play in that world, then they have to make interrupts needed two to three times as often which leads to many more mistakes and much more frustration.

 

Melee classes are balanced around getting into melee range. Not really sure why that surprises you.

 

Then quoting someone talking about elites while questing as a balancing point... Please... I can keep an elite from doing major damage simply by using Concussive Charge and Cryo Grenade properly. Not to mention I can solo heroic 4 champions without an interrupt.

 

Not someone, THE someone. Georg Zoeller, the Lead Combat Designer for the game, aka the guy who should know *** he is talking about when it comes to encounter and combat design. When he says the design encounters to require an ability, he means not using that ability is doing it wrong...and Mercs/Commandos are the only AC who lack the specific ability in question (an interrupt). He also explicitly says in interrupt and, again explicitly, distinguishes that from the "soft interrupt" of stuns and knockbacks.

 

The way people seem to prefer balance to exist, we might as well have 4 classes total. A tank, a healer, a melee DPS and a range DPS. Then you don't have to worry about liking a class, just like the role.

 

Really? Who are these people? The Healer forum has a long list of assorted change requests from the different classes (longest for Scoundrels/Operatives shortest for Sages/Sorcs which sort of clearly shows the balance issues), and none of the proposed adjustments create cloned classes. In fact, if you talk to "most people" calling out for balance (and on that forum, I have) what they want is "different styles, different tools, same results." There are three ways to do balance: clones (as you claim people want) where everyone is the same but renamed, niches (as some people claim we have but GZ has stated is not the intention) where each class excels at one area and sucks in another (ie Main Tank healer vs Raid Healer), and "different styles, same results" where everyone has tools to accomplish the same goals, but the tools are different. The last one is hardest, but it is also what most people want.

 

We wear heavy armor. We can heal. We have enough control.

 

Wrong. Without an interrupt we lack an explicitly required tool for fight design. See again the posts about Esseles. Try running that with a Commando Healer and two Gunnery Commandos and let us know how it goes. Then repeat it with the same tank, same healer, and two of any other dps.

 

One of those runs will be a lot smoother, assuming you can even complete it on the first one which is likely only possible if you substantially outgear it (ie near full Rakata).

 

As a Commando healer, the only thing I would like, if anything at all, is to have Kolto Bomb have a bigger radius of effect. I don't need it to be "smart", I'm smarter than the programming.

 

Do you get paid to be wrong? You should look into it, cause you are great at it. Like a wrongness savant or something.

 

• An ability you have to "outsmart the programming" on to make useful is an ability that needs changing.
  
• Assuming you accept that kind of design where you have to "outsmart" the mechanics to make an ability work, the "mobility tax" on KB should be offset by the "skill rebate" for successfully doing so. It is not, as even healing 3 people who need it, KB heals for 52-57% of Salvation.
  
• Expanding the radius without adding smart healing is nearly worthless, as the current mechanic (that you are so much smarter than...) is that it heals the three people closest to the center. That person on the edge of your larger KB will never see a heal if 3 people are further in. If you simply want to toss it in an empty area halfway between two people who happen to need heals, you still likely don't benefit from a larger radius because the targeting markers for AoE do not currently scale to match the radii of their skills, so you have no way of reliably placing the center so both people are on opposite edges.
  

 

Smart healing is the #1 change that is needed to make KB and KC useful. The #2 change is related to the scaling of the abilities in 8-16 man operations, where Salv heals 8 but KB and KC are capped at 3 and 4. Right now KB has exactly half the cooldown of Salv, so with smart healing you could heal 8 people in the same time (though, again, for 52-57% depending on SCC state), but KC has the same cooldown and cannot be cast twice in that period, while healing for only 38% of Salv.

 

For all I know you might be an excellent player in the game, but you are woefully ignorant of the actual facts, numbers, class comparisons and mechanics. Please stop spreading misinformation and do some research before making statements about needed changes.

[Chuck_Diesel]

RuQu = the man, keep fighting the good fight.

[Aaoogaa]

lol what changs??? grav round can't be interrupted?? that will never happen thats the only fix that needs to happen. with out grav round the gunnery spec is crap

 

You can spec so grav round cannot be interrupted for 12 seconds. There is no need to add it in when the ability is already present.

[withonor]

Don't even bother trying to discuss anything with RuQu. All you're doing is giving him an excuse to make another gigantic post filled with multi-quotes that basically just says "Damn do I love the sound of my own voice".

 

I didn't mention his name, but he responded. Nothing I can do there. I did learn the hard way though.

 

Edit: I have cleared Nightmare. And the other healer was a Scoundrel. We didn't use an "all powerful" Sage that people keep saying are the best healers. And the Scoundrel did say that it was easier healing with me there than the two Sage healers in the guild. I admit, excuses are easier.

Edited March 2, 2012 by withonor

[RuQu]

I didn't mention his name, but he responded. Nothing I can do there. I did learn the hard way though.

 

Edit: I have cleared Nightmare. And the other healer was a Scoundrel. We didn't use an "all powerful" Sage that people keep saying are the best healers. And the Scoundrel did say that it was easier healing with me there than the two Sage healers in the guild. I admit, excuses are easier.

 

Even easier than excuses is arguing a completely different discussion than everyone else. No one is denying that all the classes can clear it. As GZ said, all of them are clearing content and are viable. The question isn't one of viable, but competitive. Congratulations on being a decent Commando in a guild with terrible Sages, but everyone who has played both (can't get much closer to equal skill than being the same player) has reported that for the same amount of effort, Sages get better results.

 

You can keep acting like people are claiming it is impossible to do anything as a non-Sage, but doing so means you either have remarkably terrible reading comprehension or you are simply trolling.

[withonor]

Even easier than excuses is arguing a completely different discussion than everyone else. No one is denying that all the classes can clear it. As GZ said, all of them are clearing content and are viable. The question isn't one of viable, but competitive. Congratulations on being a decent Commando in a guild with terrible Sages, but everyone who has played both (can't get much closer to equal skill than being the same player) has reported that for the same amount of effort, Sages get better results.

 

You can keep acting like people are claiming it is impossible to do anything as a non-Sage, but doing so means you either have remarkably terrible reading comprehension or you are simply trolling.

 

 

If every healer can clear content, how do you measure competitiveness? Everyone who has played both have biased opinions. One set of mechanics were easier for them. It doesn't change that the other healers is just as capable.

 

And you're calling me decent when I am doing the hardest stuff on a class that you think is under-balanced. Get over yourself. Do the Nightmare stuff. Usually when someone makes stickies they're an example of the best players. But you're training people to suck.

[RuQu]

If every healer can clear content, how do you measure competitiveness? Everyone who has played both have biased opinions. One set of mechanics were easier for them. It doesn't change that the other healers is just as capable.

 

And you're calling me decent when I am doing the hardest stuff on a class that you think is under-balanced. Get over yourself. Do the Nightmare stuff. Usually when someone makes stickies they're an example of the best players. But you're training people to suck.

 

There are no combat logs or meters, so the only way to tell differences in the class is through reports of common experience and comparisons of the math the abilities are based on. The reports and math agree and are overwhelmingly in favor of the Sage.

 

Decent. Yes, I think that's the best I can probably go with for now. There is a BG on the Merc board who reports solo healing all the HM Operations. Have you done that yet? No. Come back when you have.

 

Content clearing is also, and this may surprise you, a team effort. You didn't clear it on NM yourself, you did it with a team of well-geared people. Congratulations, in appropriate levels of gear (and another healer who was fully max geared) you cleared content designed for that level of gear, exactly as expected. That makes you decent unless you can prove otherwise.

 

Stickied threads are stuck because they contain useful information. For guides, ideally that should come from someone with skill, knowledge, and understanding. Without any good metrics for measuring skill, there isn't much we can do to settle that argument, but I think I've established a reputation as both knowledgeable and having a good understanding of the underlying mechanics.

 

Many people have reported great success following the advice in my guide. People have reported great success following the recommendations that come out of the calculator I coded. You report succeeding following different advice, which is fine. Congratulations. There are many ways to accomplish the same thing in this game, and I'm glad you found one that worked for you. That you found a setup that works for you and differs from my advice that many people report success with does not invalidate that advice.

Edited March 2, 2012 by RuQu

[withonor]

Decent. Yes, I think that's the best I can probably go with for now. There is a BG on the Merc board who reports solo healing all the HM Operations. Have you done that yet? No. Come back when you have.

 

I geared in Normal Ops and HM Flashpoints and went to Nightmare. Why would I waste time worrying about Hardmode Ops? I'm doing Nightmare in Columi and it's just fine.

 

Take your time. Do Nightmare yourself. Sadly, I wouldn't expect less whining.

[Myschief]

A dedicated healer is mostlly to be seeing teammates activations and will need to be told when they might need to interrupt, reducing the chance they will land interupts fast enough to do any good. Similarly, asking a DPSer reliant on activations and channels to provide interrupts, against mobs with a rage timer, is not the most reasonable request. Therefore, not giving commandos is a reasonable design decision.

 

What is not reasonable, is having mobs that require three interrupts in rapid succession. Assuming that a healer will not know when to interrupt, players are forced to fill the remaining three spots with classes that can interrupt. It is bad enough that groups are "forced" to bring a healer and tank.

 

What I would like to see is an end to the three interrupt requirement and a skill in the the assualt tree that allows sticky grenade and assault plastique to interrupt. (I am tired of looking a bar full of abilities that says "...weak and standard...") A single interrupt everybody fifteen seconds isn't great, but it still be a vast improvement. Gunnery would still have to suck it up, but at least the option would be there.

 

While I am thrilled that KB will have a target increase with 1.2, I find the healing, mobility, and utility of KB satisfiying. It it certianly nice on a dps/off-healer.

[LillyWhiteS]

They've already said that the animation team is creating a new (faster) animation for Mortar Volley to bring it up to par with Bounty Hunters.

 

 

Other than that, I can't think of a single fix our class needs.

 

I can think of something straight away that needs to be fixed or at least improved to be more useful, combat shield...

 

You spend 3 valuable points getting that and Med Zone, only for smart teams to chain you with other stuff, lucky to get a heal off in the time it's up and it shouldn't be the case.

 

Popping combat shield, needs to be a small window where your heals can't be effected by the ott CC in the game, but as it stands it doesn't stop hardly anything, whether it needs fixing or just improving, it needs to stop more types of CC.

 

Maybe it's just worded wrong and it shouldn't say 'interrupted' when you are choked/stunned/thrown to the ground/pushback etc with combat shield up and trying to heal, but I ALWAYS get 'interrupted' appear on the screen when all these things happen, when you are immune to interrupts, I don't know why it's says interrupted.

[Kokkos]

I can think of something straight away that needs to be fixed or at least improved to be more useful, combat shield...

 

You spend 3 valuable points getting that and Med Zone, only for smart teams to chain you with other stuff, lucky to get a heal off in the time it's up and it shouldn't be the case.

 

Popping combat shield, needs to be a small window where your heals can't be effected by the ott CC in the game, but as it stands it doesn't stop hardly anything, whether it needs fixing or just improving, it needs to stop more types of CC.

 

Maybe it's just worded wrong and it shouldn't say 'interrupted' when you are choked/stunned/thrown to the ground/pushback etc with combat shield up and trying to heal, but I ALWAYS get 'interrupted' appear on the screen when all these things happen, when you are immune to interrupts, I don't know why it's says interrupted.

 

It dont stop you from getting stunned or anything else that you wrote. It would massivly OP if it did for 15 whole sec.. If you are struggling with stuns while using it then you should let them use two stuns on you, use the "trinket" on the second and then pop shield. you now have 15 sec of spam healing, no interupt and they cant stun you since your resolve is full.

If you are playing against people that actually know to not stun you before shield is up then tell your teammates that you are a healer and are getting harrased by whoever and ask them to help peel/kill them. They will do it if they like to get heals, and i assume they do.

[Maltra]

Possible changes i'd like to see

 

kolto bombs healing more, they're pretty pathetic

 

trauma probe healing more 340 or so in pvp with the debuff is pretty laughable should be at least 500

 

full auto non interruptable, or at least a talent making it so in the gunnery tree

 

grav round either non interruptable or castable on the move

 

demo round needs to hit ALOT harder

 

ranged interrupt

 

resource change so it regenerates always at the same rate or at least at x3 when all out, x1 is just too gimpy. note that this applies to smugglers as well. it simply is a joke to be limited by the resource in such a broken way while force users can do whatever the **** they want. Energy design in this game was done poorly, in pve you can somehow manage your resource but in pvp it's not an option in some situations and then you're screwed, while force users just keep going forever with no penalties, it makes no sense.

Edited March 4, 2012 by Maltra

[Hologramx]

Playing both Commando and Sage, I have to agree that Commando is a much inferior design comparing to Sage in almost every aspects. That's the reason I see extremely few combat medics but a lot of sage healers wherever I go in end-game. And it is not fun playing with a CM comparing with a Sage as well, due to limited healing in mobility. Two limited heals on pretty long CDs, one extremely weak instant no-cost heal which can only be used in idling occasion, instead of occasion you really need to heal because it will only waste your GCD.

 

I would probably stop playing my Commando when my Sage reaches 50 because I really can't find a reason to play a Commando if I have a Sage. Lack of in-combat rezz, lack of interrupt, less effective instant heals, lower dps (especially against high armored mobs), worst buff in all classes ... Even our AoE sucks because they are either highly costly or has long CD that I can't even rotate them with groups ,have to stop to wait for the CDs frequently even if I manage to use my 2-min CD to save ammo ... The better gear you get, the more dilemma you face ... What's the point of you can kill 2 groups in 30 sec and you need to wait another 30 seconds to keep killing other groups because all your effective AoEs are all on CD? A sage can sweep through them without stopping even with much worse gear ...

Edited March 6, 2012 by Hologramx

[Bbizzle]

lol what changs??? grav round can't be interrupted?? that will never happen thats the only fix that needs to happen. with out grav round the gunnery spec is crap

 

LOLOLOLOLOL

 

You have no idea how absolutely filthy gunnery spec is. Absolutely DISGUSTING. I have both a vanguard and a commando and a 50 sage. All DPS specced. And I can tell you in terms of single target burn down, I absolutely **** on people in gunnery commando. Sage is an AOE thunderstorm of a class. And Vanguard assualt is dirty for backloaded burst and dotting people.

 

Commando is by far one of the easiest classes to play in this game.

[Keinhoran]

LOLOLOLOLOL

 

You have no idea how absolutely filthy gunnery spec is. Absolutely DISGUSTING. I have both a vanguard and a commando and a 50 sage. All DPS specced. And I can tell you in terms of single target burn down, I absolutely **** on people in gunnery commando. Sage is an AOE thunderstorm of a class. And Vanguard assualt is dirty for backloaded burst and dotting people.

 

Commando is by far one of the easiest classes to play in this game.

 

Is it really easier to play command than sage?

Edited March 7, 2012 by Keinhoran

[Aritok]

LOLOLOLOLOL

 

You have no idea how absolutely filthy gunnery spec is. Absolutely DISGUSTING. I have both a vanguard and a commando and a 50 sage. All DPS specced. And I can tell you in terms of single target burn down, I absolutely **** on people in gunnery commando. Sage is an AOE thunderstorm of a class. And Vanguard assualt is dirty for backloaded burst and dotting people.

 

Commando is by far one of the easiest classes to play in this game.

 

This might be for a DPS. But for a healer, a sage is alot easier. And more effective.

 

 

We have done normal EV yesterday with 6 player to gear up some new member (Vanguard, 2 Gunslinger, 2 Sages DPS, Commando). And i was the only healer. And i can tell you that Soa is a PAIN as solo healer, when you are only a commando. The damage you get from the falling is alot. And healing this with a pity 3 player AE heal, dont work so well. Without the, even when low, patch heals, it would have been alot harder.

 

Done the same with a Sage, and its a joke. AE heal on the ground, and you dont have to worry about any AE damage anymore.

 

Yes, the roles for these two healers are different. I can heal a tank on no matter what hits him (unless one shot). A sage can keep up a group/raid alot better. The roles of these two classes are a bit different. But after all, the sage is the easier to play and more effective healer of these two.

 

I didn't mention his name, but he responded. Nothing I can do there. I did learn the hard way though.

 

Edit: I have cleared Nightmare. And the other healer was a Scoundrel. We didn't use an "all powerful" Sage that people keep saying are the best healers. And the Scoundrel did say that it was easier healing with me there than the two Sage healers in the guild. I admit, excuses are easier.

 

Surprisse. We did it as well.

But does not change anything that it would have been easier if we have done it with Sage + any other healer.

There seem to be a problem with your sage healers, when your scoundrel say something like this.

 

 

The only boss where a commando seems to be better than a sage is the council. Not sure if its only our sages, but they have problems with the healer mob on the council. Can kill him, but its alot closer and take longer as it does for me.

IF it is a problem with our sages, it only support my statement, that sages are easier to play as healer.

[_gideon]

So I heard that grav round was being nerfed?

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=343328

Edited March 7, 2012 by _gideon

[Ilgust]

Well. Letting run the subcription out it seems. No help for commandos = no love for Bioware.

Waiting week after week for fixes made me total lose my faith in Bioware.

 

This patch even is a total joke. No OPS fix. No PVP fix. No commando fix. No Faction imbalance fix. NOTHING AT ALL!

 

And dont tell me 1.2 will fix everything, and will be the ultimate help. It will make everything just worse when they add new stuff without fixing the old first. Week after week where they dont change and remove the problems, it will make it worse and worse.

 

Glad you're gone, if you can't play Commando, you can't play jack sh*t...