1.1.5 - death of rarity and achievements?!

[Ancientwolfgr]

They don't wanna do it because they are ashamed. "We do it to rise subs, nothing more, nothing less". Atleast that's what they think they are doing, but WoW shows something different. Everything handed = losing subs. Oh when people will learn that easy = boring, no matter how bad and casual player you are.

 

Casual players have paid subs for a decade or more the whole time in games STILL running and turning a profit. (ie; UO since 97). WoW will still be profitable 10 years from now too. So?

[origamikitsune]

51 pages... didn't read the comments in full, but I got the gist. 2cents...

 

Gonna TLDR My Post? Here you go, the short version:

I suspect it is a calculated tactic by bioware to mitigate hyper-inflation and other common MMO economic problems prior to release of patch 1.2, which will see an abundance of new crafting items. A little damage control now can (and hopefully will) prevent KNOWN issues that every MMO to date has had when releasing new items (20m credits for a new piece of gear, /whine it is too expensive!)

 

The Long Version:

Yes, it sucks that all the "achievements" are being given away. However, it does not take away from those that achieved. If anything, it elevates it. "I got mine by EARNING it..." if you really want to brag, you can.

 

That said, this is my take on what is happening... And this is 100% pure and total guessing (though if you ask, I'll tell you that if you read between the lines, you can see what is happening)

 

1.) There is no economy for crafters

 

2.) Bioware wants one, so does every crafter that is not a Biochemist

 

3.) Introducing NPC vendor available items (temporarily) does not hurt the economy because it doesn't exist (except for consumables) to speak of

 

4.) It does however drum up interest, and get people spending money, and later spending money on player made items

 

5.) Bioware WANTS people to swarm the temporary vendor so they can take massive amounts of money out of the players' hands

 

6.) If they don't, introducing new items for crafters will only create a huge economic problem (look at any number of MMO's without gold/credit/gil/whatever sinks, and the hyper-inflation problems, and how it affects new players)

 

7.) By removing massive amounts of credits from the game, they have a head start on a working economy when...

 

8.) 1.2 comes out and they introduce -new- things you have to work for and achieve and make / sell, because lets face it - whether or not you achieved or buy a pink light saber, if a better / newer / shinier one comes out later that can only be achieved, you're going to go for it

 

9.) There is absolutely nothing wrong with "rare" items becoming common in an MMO - it is the natural progression of every MMO - and Bioware is just choosing when and how on their terms as a means towards better management than, say, lifting the level cap, which makes fp/ops easier, and in turn makes getting STUFF easier to get

 

10.) The end result is that by taking proactive control over this stuff earlier, something other MMO's don't do (at least, in my experience), they are attempting to prevent problems that we KNOW will happen otherwise, and that is a GOOD thing (hyper-inflation happens in EVERY MMO to date)...

 

Now, whether or not it works, will mark Bioware as either an innovator in MMO production, or just another failed way of doing things... but we won't know until we see it. Personally, I'd rather see them try and fail than just do the same thing every other MMO does, and then do the same damage control every other MMO does.

 

And that's my 2cents.

[Ancientwolfgr]

You watch how subs drop like mad few weeks after those changes. I've seen it happen in WoW, I've seen it happen in Star Wars Galaxies. I will see it happen here.

 

Thats because some player types are considered as temporary revenue generation. The stable math is already calculated. Which do [you] fall under?

[grucho]

I like how you make some math up from your arse. The reality is there, once u dumb down stuff people leave. It happened in SW Galaxies, it happens in WoW. The facts are there, your math only in your deluded head.

[Ancientwolfgr]

I like how you make some math up from your arse. The reality is there, once u dumb down stuff people leave. It happened in SW Galaxies, it happens in WoW. The facts are there, your math only in your deluded head.

 

See you in 10 years.

[IlexGlabra]

What's the point of playing the game for you than?

What's the point of subscribing?

If you can get best items in a second you ding lvl50?

What for will you go to Operations or hunt World Bosses? Or play hard mode flashpoints?

I can't speak for that guy, but for myself, I play the game for the gameplay. I like PvP and I like exploring.

 

If you want to give me a loaded 50 to start with, I'd be fine with that. It's a silly and artificial mechanic whose only purpose is to make you spend more hours subscribing to the game. If it gives you a sense of achievement to walk that treadmill, then power to you.

[Leadros]

I can't speak for that guy, but for myself, I play the game for the gameplay. I like PvP and I like exploring.

 

If you want to give me a loaded 50 to start with, I'd be fine with that. It's a silly and artificial mechanic whose only purpose is to make you spend more hours subscribing to the game. If it gives you a sense of achievement to walk that treadmill, then power to you.

 

right when you think that you have seen everything...

 

and to that math guy, if they do calculate everything so perfectly that it fits, tell me how did the ghost servers happen? dont kid yourself, since easy mode was engaged in WoW, it lost more and more customers, sure, they made profit but at the point where WoW is, its hard not to make profit, the fact is, that is losing more and more players.

 

And the same will happen here

Edited February 28, 2012 by Leadros

[LiquidRavenS]

I find it kinda sad that after so many topics and so many pages about this vendor, no dev has answered an exact reason why they put in those artifice crystal on a vendor and the exact reason behind it.

 

 

The crystals are only in the vendor to be TESTED. The devs have stated in other threads it is just temporary until the 1.2 patch and it is ONLY on the test server as for now. Hold your torch and pitch fork for incase it hits live.

[Leadros]

The crystals are only in the vendor to be TESTED. The devs have stated in other threads it is just temporary until the 1.2 patch and it is ONLY on the test server as for now. Hold your torch and pitch fork for incase it hits live.

 

ah, so its on the server for 2,5 m to be tested? how so when you have to start a new char on the test server?

 

I dont need to hold my torch, id like to throw it at the guy who had the brilliant idea.

 

Temporary or not makes little difference, since everbody who wants those crystals is gonna buy em when they are on the NPC on the live servers.

An give me the dev post that said that its only on the test server, because the patchnotes indicate that it will go live and stay till 1.1.2 wich is beyond stupid.

 

 

they want to make a money sink, thats fine, but why use artifice stuff for that? why not something neutral? is that to hard for them to design or to grasp that this will upset people who have that job and spent time gathering the recipe of the magenta crystal?

Edited February 28, 2012 by Leadros

[ElementalCrisis]

Would it really be a bad thing if they made these color crystals available for purchase? Whats wrong with giving the player-base an alternative to acquiring a certain color crystal? Not everyone has the time to raid for X amount of hours in the hopes of being fortunate enough for the color crystal to drop and then being lucky enough to get it. I'm not saying make them cheap, they should be around 3-5 million and BOP to stop people from trying to re-sell.

[origamikitsune]

Assuming it is because they want a credit sink, I think they are "picking on artificers" as it were, because that is what they think people want to most spend their money on. Hue To Chest will (IMHO) actually decease the the ability to sell for synthweavers (since it matters a lot less what everything else looks like, especially if you can grab any 'ole orange and make it look good). Also, they are focusing on mounts, which are available on the test server.

 

If, and it is a big if, they are intentionally sinking large amounts of money, it makes sense they would focus on what people want most.

 

Also, I have to wonder, why does everyone have their panties in a bunch? I'm pretty sure I remember reading dev posts saying that they would introduce -new- rare stuff to replace the old... which means new stuff to work our butts off for. I mean, its an MMO. There is ALWAYS going to be new stuff, and it is ALWAYS going to replace the old stuff, and the old stuff is ALWAYS going to be easier to get. What does it matter how it becomes popular? Whether its NPC available, or just "easier" 'cause of increased level cap, or just more people make it... as long as it is replaced with newer/better/shinier... what's the big deal?

 

Or would people rather never have new content, and just always have the same rare stuff and whine about the lack of content?

 

I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather always be one step behind trying to catch up to the newest best and brightest than always be ahead and waiting for new.

[Leadros]

Would it really be a bad thing if they made these color crystals available for purchase? Whats wrong with giving the player-base an alternative to acquiring a certain color crystal? Not everyone has the time to raid for X amount of hours in the hopes of being fortunate enough for the color crystal to drop and then being lucky enough to get it. I'm not saying make them cheap, they should be around 3-5 million and BOP to stop people from trying to re-sell.

 

 

If not everyone has the time, then not everyone can get that, simple as that.

 

If you dont want to PvE or to PvP then no purple or cyan, why is this such a hard concept for some people? and PvP is an alternative to PvE. if you want taht colour so damn badly, that you have to make daily threads about it in crew skill posts, you could also spent that time on actually GETTING the colour. i mean, purple is even as a crit version buyable on imperial side if you get the columni drop for warriors in battle for ilum.

 

I dont wanna level up biocheme either, do i get a biochem medpack thats reusable too? because i dont have the time to skill up biochem.

 

And why would you sell something for wich there is an ingame profession on a vendor?

Edited February 28, 2012 by Leadros

[Elrina]

I really hope it does hit live servers.

 

It's a temporary credit sink, that's pretty necessary for the changes coming in 1.2.

 

I know some of you think they're cheap, but for the prices I saw, they're anything but. Especially if someone wanted a white crystal. Those of you who have so much money that you can buy as many of these as you want are exactly the reason they need to be there.

 

Besides, it doesn't turn the entire game into ezmode, it doesn't kill rarity or achievement. It's one mod piece, out of 5. There are still 4 other types of mods and other types of gear entirely. One.

 

Let people have their pretty color lightsabers and just chill out. Higher tiers will be released (making these obsolete), other alternatives will be made available, new rare **** will be made and crop up. I seriously don't understand how this thread still has people talking about how the temporary availability of some new lightsaber colors for the vast majority of the people still playing this game is suddenly making the entire game ezmode.

 

Trying to make it out as if one mod for weapons will suddenly do that all by itself doesn't even make any sense. People are doing it because it's the visible mod, it's what lets people actually use different colors, but it's a damn Star Wars game, why don't you cut people some damn slack. Sooner or later these colors will inevitably become less rare anyway, especially as gear rises in tiers, which will also make the crystals temporarily available now obsolete in any case.

 

Also, for those crying about Artificers, I have Artifice maxed. It was my first craft maxed (I have a few), and have almost all the gathering/mission skills maxed too. There is nothing wrong with this. Artifice is not only about color crystals. Get over it.

[Logiick]

Having no interest to raid, ever, I see no problems with this.

 

This. Sorry, but these changes are improvements.

[Tyua]

OP all MMOs do the same : if you are an hardcore gamer you will have the good stuff before the others, so enjoy your month or 2 being ubber before most players will have the same for some game balance considerations but... oh wait.. they created a new challenge looking like an hamster wheel ! go go go !

[Alavastre]

From what I understand, it's a limited time thing, until 1.2, the Jesus of MMO patches. I got both ways, yeah, there should be objectives, but if it is a limited time, I don't know, seems like just "here's something to keep you happy until March."

 

But all MMO's end up nerfing content. I mean look at WoW. You know how long it took me to get to level 40 and then save up for a mount? Now you can get them at 20, for dirt cheap. But in the end, I would rather have mounts earlier than later. This isn't the exact same thing of course, but just a story of how MMO's always get nerfed.

[uramu]

As soon as companies realized they could not only make a profit from gamers, but become filthy rich off of us, the "ZoMg special uber leet lolhardcore" content stopped.

 

Personally, I haven't seen NEAR the crybabying for this game that I have seen for others. People don't seem to care about the current endgame (the lack thereof) or what color crystal anyone has.

 

Hell.. if they offered everything on vendors that was available through every type of "endgame" (PvE/PvP/Crafting/Dailies/etc)... who cares?

 

They could attach a title to the achievements of doing it the "hard" way. They could give the title "Laziest of Carebears" to people who just buy it. I know I'd wear the title proudly... along with THOUSANDS of others.

 

It's a video game. Modern developers realize that gaming is a hobby, it's not a lifestyle (for 97% of gamers.. and yup, statistics online are always true), and one that most people do for fun. Healthy people feel accomplished in real life and don't need to parade around in something purple to think they completed some hard task.

 

The shed they built in the backyard or alternator that was replaced in their 2002 Mercury Cougar (Look it up.. it ain't easy) means more than killing pixels over and over to get a drop.

 

I used to spend 40+ hours a week raiding, farming for repair bill/mats, crafting for raid nights, officer meetings.. etc... etc... etc..

 

That was before I had children, a wife, a college degree, and a career. Sure, I could still be all LOLHARDCORE and get things done, but it's just not important... just as it's not important for a majority of gamers.

 

The loud minority that cares about accomplishing something in a video game should keep looking. SWTOR will never have what you are looking for, nor will any other mass marketed MMO. Your hardmodes will be nerfed, your gear will be had by all, your titles mean little when 6 months later, people solo content to get them.

 

MMOs, by design, are meant to be enjoyed by as many people as possible (unless your market is Asian only, or it's EvE online). Why would companies spend so much money for content that few, comparatively, will experience? Blizzard tried to go back to LOLHARDCORE. They were rewarded with less than 6% of players actually doing it. They lost millions of subscribers. They backpedaled somewhat. They got subscribers back... somewhat.

 

People spend so much time ranting and raving about a video game... jeebus. If it's important enough to post about, and you don't think it will change, just quit the game. There is no contract that forces anyone to continue playing something they dislike.

 

I'll +1 this, rather than repeating it.

[Arnathis]

Obviously there's people on both sides of the fence here, but both sides seem unwilling or unable to concede anything to the other.

 

Personally, I'm more on the side of keeping hard to obtain items, well, hard to obtain. However, I think it's important that the majority of cool stuff stays available to the bulk of players.

 

I think both sides can co-exist within the same game. Maybe each raid tier there is a mount/crystal/title that only drops off the last boss of Nightmare mode, would this really be so horrible? The hardcores have their stuff to showoff, which is a big part of this and I have no problem with it, it's human nature. The casuals have tons of other stuff to get without having to deal with nightmare modes.

 

Would either side really take issue with this? The people in Nightmare modes should be rewarded for taking the time to complete them, just like the casuals are rewarded for completing their tasks. I mean it seems awfully selfish for the casuals to want EVERYTHING available to them without having to put the effort in to clear tougher content.

 

Also, I think it would be nice if they incorporated rare spawn mounts (yes, like WoW) throughout the world that you have to kill and are rewarded with a mount for your effort. This type of content is open to everyone, a casual could be questing or just stopping by on the off chance the thing has spawned and get it out of sheer luck, or the more dedicated player could be camping there waiting for it and get it. Neither side is excluded, though the person willing to camp there and spend the time is a bit more likely to come across it.

 

TL;DR I think both sides, hardcore and casuals, can exist within the same game and be kept reasonably happy. It's certainly possible to find a happy medium between keeping everything so hard to get only hardcores with a lot of time on their hands can obtain them and having everything so easy to get and open to everyone that nothing seems unique or "epic" anymore.

[Sky_walkerPL]

Minor remark:

 

Note that the split between

Casual gamer <---> Hardcore gamer

isn't the same as split between

Make items as available as possible <----> Keep hard to get items in the way they are

 

 

Cause lot of people seem to see it as "casuals want everything handled to them for credits, while hardcores want to keep cool stuff for themselves" - it's not like that nor ever been. (heck, it's not even about "keeping for yourself" or "I cannot get it so none should" philosophy as many suggest)

 

[edit]

I almost split my coffee reading that:

They were rewarded with less than 6% of players actually doing it. They lost millions of subscribers

ROTFL

Edited February 28, 2012 by Sky_walkerPL

[Carltronus]

Gotta say, in this situation, frankly I don't care. Its not going to change the way I play the game. So meh. You're supposed to raid for fun, not for epeen. But then people treat games like jobs these days. Its weird.

[Korrigan]

Looks like Bioware understood where the bulk of their customers is... the customers who will keep PAYING for the game in the next months and years.

[Yuuj]

The problem with that analogy is the lottery winner is elevated to the status of super rich which is a target for many and is what holds the prestige.

 

By making everything accessible the prestige of the item is lowered and the value which was once attached to it an made it desirable is lost, its kind of the reverse of the lottery analogy.

 

I think the lotto analogy is perfect for what we are talking about here. You have one group of people who are amassing wealth and another group of people who are relying on a random number generator to roll in their favor if a crystal, mount, or schematic happens to drop.

 

I agree with you on the 'prestige' note, but in this case it really isn't applicable. We are talking about items that drop randomly throughout encounters, not items that require you to complete the Nightmare mode of a operation in two hours without dying, then fighting the last boss in a way that makes a difficult encounter already more difficult.

 

If we were discussing mounts and crystals that only dropped in nightmare modes and even then were super difficult to obtain I would agree with your Ferrari analogy, but we aren't so...

 

In this case it would be like saving your whole life and buying a Ferrari, only to find a few weeks later Ferrari decide to give away thousands of cars to anyone who wants one for free. All of a sudden owning your Ferrari isn't so special any more. It by no means impacts your enjoyment of the item but the prestige of being an owner is diminished.

 

Now everyone uses the special little snowflake line all the time, but many people in MMO's like to have these carrots dangling in front of them to chase after.

 

First of all, nothing is being given away for free so let's scratch the second part of your analogy altogether and put it into the appropriate perspective.

 

You go to a mall and see that this mall is giving away a thousand Ferrari's and all you have to do is sign a piece of paper, continue to shop and get items you'd normal get, and get lucky that your name gets drawn. There. You didn't work for it, you just got lucky.

 

I don't see how applying a high credit cost to an item and dangling it in front of someone's face does not qualify as a carrot on a stick, but telling people that going to an operation is. Once again, it just comes down to personal preference and beliefs about what constitutes a challenge.

 

There are plenty of people saying that end game operations in this game, even on their highest difficulty, are too easy. There are also plenty of people saying that collecting credits once you hit endgame, if you don't have a profession that provides schematics or orange gear for sale, is a horrible task.

 

Let's not fool ourselves. No one goes to an operation just for the mount or crystal and then says 'done!' A purple lightsaber crystal is not a Ferrari, it's a hood ornament. The lightsaber you can throw it inside of and the armor that you get for completing the operation is where the prestige comes from, not the random drops.

[Bluetickone]

Minor remark:

 

Note that the split between

Casual gamer <---> Hardcore gamer

isn't the same as split between

Make items as available as possible <----> Keep hard to get items in the way they are

 

 

Cause lot of people seem to see it as "casuals want everything handled to them for credits, while hardcores want to keep cool stuff for themselves" - it's not like that nor ever been. (heck, it's not even about "keeping for yourself" or "I cannot get it so none should" philosophy as many suggest)

 

[edit]

I almost split my coffee reading that:

 

ROTFL

 

 

 

This. Who gives a rabbit fart about crystal colors and speeders, its just fluff. I want competitive pvp where the Imps dont have clear advantages in terms of abilities and skill delays. I want raiding content that is challenging with interesting mechanics. And yes, rewards that are unique for these accomplishments.

[Caelrie]

Wow, people are STILL refusing to actually read the thread before commenting?

 

FYI, ALL the speeders on the vendor are currently available for credits on the live servers. NONE of the crystals drop on the live servers. These are stat variations, only the colors are the same.

 

SO NOBODY IS GETTING "CHEATED".

[Vlacke]

I, like many others here, have absolutely no problem with this.