Khryn Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 And you've just made a very good argument for increasing group size to 5. Well I'm just thinking the difficulty is tuned to 4 man and it'd probably take a bit of an overhaul in the code to up it perfectly for 5 mans. Five man groups didn't help queues for DPS in WoW. You are always gonna have a surplus of DPS players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincynt Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 1) Increase group size to 5 Personally I don't care, if this is something people really want. But I play a tank or healer as a main class for a reason, and that's so I don't have to wait a stupid ammount of time for groups as a DPS character. Personally I believe if you want to play DPS and refuse to play anything else you should simlpy expect a longer wait for groups then tanks or healers experience. I don't necessarily believe that uping the group size will reduce the wait time of DPS only characters in any reasonable way. Maybe three to five minutes... 2) Institute a cross-server LFG instance finder I'm against a cross-server LFG Tool myself. I enjoy being able to friend the people I group with. It's how I meet people in MMO's. Cross-Server LFG Tool's just result in people farming dungeons and don't overly create a sense of community. I'm not against an LFG Tool, I do agree that the game needs one. I would just much rather it be my server only so I can cultivate relationships with other players and get to know people. Try adding someone from another server to your friend list... 3) Tune instances as needed to maintain difficulty level I don't know how this would reduce the wait time of DPS only characters. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it. I DO absolutely agree that the game as a whole is far to easy. It should have taken raiding guilds months to beat the end game content, not weeks. As far as flash points I do think they're a little on the easy side at the moment. But it has meant that myself and two friends can do a flashpoint with the inclusion of one of our companions without much difficulty and that has made my life easier as far as groups are concerned. I'd like to see Op's difficulty upped rather dramatically, but I honestly feel Flashpoints are fine as my companions are able to fill in roles that are missing as long as they are adaquately geared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boxer Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 On my server, depending on the time of day, DPS can be harder to find than tanks or healers. I have guildmates who have tanked or healed for most games, but are DPS for this game because they weren't needed otherwise. Increasing the group size only pushes the current tanks and healers to want to respec to DPS, since there's one spot for tank, one spot for healer, and 3-4 spots for DPS. The only advantage would be if they increased the size by 25% but only increased difficult by 20% or so, so a Tank-spec could take a DPS slot. Of course, that just means people would still want 3xDPS so they can just roll through it. The best solution though is just make it very easy to switch from a DPS build to your healer/tank build. That way, if you need a tank or healer 3 out of every 8 ACs can fill that roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akash Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Well I'm just thinking the difficulty is tuned to 4 man and it'd probably take a bit of an overhaul in the code to up it perfectly for 5 mans. Five man groups didn't help queues for DPS in WoW. You are always gonna have a surplus of DPS players. Woudn't take much at all. Tuning instances is a constant process in MMO's. While you may have a surplus of DPS players as a matter of course, increasing group size to 5 would mitigate the problem from its current state. A cross-server LFG tool is a more important feature needed immediately, I will concede that. But for long-term game health, the developers should recognize that 4-man groups unnecessarily limit DPS player experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akash Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Personally I don't care, if this is something people really want. But I play a tank or healer as a main class for a reason, and that's so I don't have to wait a stupid ammount of time for groups as a DPS character. Personally I believe if you want to play DPS and refuse to play anything else you should simlpy expect a longer wait for groups then tanks or healers experience. I don't necessarily believe that uping the group size will reduce the wait time of DPS only characters in any reasonable way. Maybe three to five minutes... I'm against a cross-server LFG Tool myself. I enjoy being able to friend the people I group with. It's how I meet people in MMO's. Cross-Server LFG Tool's just result in people farming dungeons and don't overly create a sense of community. I'm not against an LFG Tool, I do agree that the game needs one. I would just much rather it be my server only so I can cultivate relationships with other players and get to know people. Try adding someone from another server to your friend list... I don't know how this would reduce the wait time of DPS only characters. I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on it. I DO absolutely agree that the game as a whole is far to easy. It should have taken raiding guilds months to beat the end game content, not weeks. As far as flash points I do think they're a little on the easy side at the moment. But it has meant that myself and two friends can do a flashpoint with the inclusion of one of our companions without much difficulty and that has made my life easier as far as groups are concerned. I'd like to see Op's difficulty upped rather dramatically, but I honestly feel Flashpoints are fine as my companions are able to fill in roles that are missing as long as they are adaquately geared. On point #3, if you increased group size to 5 you would need to retune some boss fights for increased difficulty to maintain the same level of challenge. That's all I was saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jederix Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 And yet another person who just wants to zerg over everything. I hear GW2 will have exactly this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hargir Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Gotta love the number of people who automatically call stuff they don't agree with "bad design". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 And, no companions? Huge disappointment. In Lotro you can bring six loremasters w/pets into anything you like and have a romp 'n stompin' time. Here? Poof...no room for a companion. Balderdash. Whoever came up with this one should get a real job. It's an integral part of your class...till you need it. I still can't believe this one. And, it's stuff like this that have eyes looking toward Guild Wars 2. You know all the time this game was in development? It took so long cause of the problems scheduling all the voice actors. You didn't think they were perfecting the game...did you? Blame the moaning forum users a few years back who didn't want companions in flashpoints, open PvP or Ops, who wanted no companions in game due to "not wanting to play a pet class and if I don't use a companion I'm gimping myself". In it's original form pre-release companions were additions on top of the players and didn't use a group slot. I'm noticing a few issues don't come down to bad design but come down to changing their minds about an element of the game after forum members complain about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vincynt Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 On point #3, if you increased group size to 5 you would need to retune some boss fights for increased difficulty to maintain the same level of challenge. That's all I was saying. I gottcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drednor Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I must admist the group dynamics is dissapointing, its too much button bashing and no real tactics and you dont feel like you have a role in the group, 10 year old EQ grouping was more complex and better, so much for the genre evolving.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazzer Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I must admist the group dynamics is dissapointing, its too much button bashing and no real tactics and you dont feel like you have a role in the group, 10 year old EQ grouping was more complex and better, so much for the genre evolving.. Bingo! It comes to people wanting to use "rotations" [shudder], it would be nice to have to react instead of memorize which pattern of buttons to press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshenK Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Group size should have really been 8 to 24 for raids. Other games have tried the smaller groups and well it just doesn't work. Along with that content should be much harder then it is now. Solo play should not be something that's in an MMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeruleanNite Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I have to ask at this point if you've ever been on a raid? Instances can be tuned to accomodate whatever the group size. I'm not talking about difficulty of instances here, I'm talking about maximizing playtime for the playerbase. And the playerbase seems to be doing fine at a 4 man groupsize. People are screeming in other threads about not being able to form a group and you are talking about making groups bigger. Four is fine, they are working and many people have proven that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeruleanNite Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I hear GW2 will have exactly this. One of the reasons I am NOT looking forward to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AshenK Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I hear GW2 will have exactly this. GW2 has a lot going into it. And thus far all I'm hearing from people who have tried GW2 is that it's the MMO everyone has been waiting for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexster Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I wish group sizes were larger. But as the game stands there isn't much need for a larger group. With roles of crowd control essentially spread out among the classes or nonexistant, and no real buff/debuff class, there is no real reason to go beyond a 4 person group. Should some sort of these class roles be added in the future, I hope larger group size is also included. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ansultares Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 No sympathy for lolDPS. I learned long ago that playing a tank or a healer is key to getting easy groups, and that virtually any DPS is replaceable. This is a poor argument for cross-server LFD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morpholinium Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 The obvious solution is to create a game with just tanks and healers, and cap group size at two. Any more minimalist and there's no point in making it multi player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CeruleanNite Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 GW2 has a lot going into it. And thus far all I'm hearing from people who have tried GW2 is that it's the MMO everyone has been waiting for. I hear that about almost every new MMO that comes out. I will judge if I like it or not when it comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pink_Saber Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) No sympathy for lolDPS. I learned long ago that playing a tank or a healer is key to getting easy groups, and that virtually any DPS is replaceable. This is a poor argument for cross-server LFD. No argument at all for it, really. If this is some kind of universal truth, as the OP suggests, adding the cross-server element would do absolutely nothing to fix it. The ratio of DPS to tanks and healers would be roughly the same either way. Suggesting otherwise is just bad math. If people want to play DPS, that's fine. They just need to understand that, if they do, it's a traditionally over-represented group. That's just how it is. You pay certain prices for whatever role you choose. Edited February 23, 2012 by Pink_Saber Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chton Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Bingo! It comes to people wanting to use "rotations" [shudder], it would be nice to have to react instead of memorize which pattern of buttons to press. Of course this is what people want, can you learn to react by looking it up on the internet? That's how these folks play an MMO, google for the best class, build, gear set up etc. No one wants to think for themselves. DPS is easy that's why people gravitate to it. You don't notice a bad DPS as fast as you do a bad tank or healer. So yes more EZ mode for the DPS players. WOOOT! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terminova Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is an MMO, and like virtually all MMO's you always hurt for tanks and healers. If you want to play a tank or a healer you can get a group easily, cause most gamers think its just more fun to smack stuff around and see big numbers roll up the screen. Has little to do with "big numbers" and more to do with I don't want to tank or heal right now. I'm sure I'm fully capable of doing both, I simply have no desire to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TiiRahnedancer Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 It's been my experience with other MMO's that, in general, the bigger the group size the longer it takes to fill members. Even if they adjusted the entire game for a larger base group size I really don't think that it would make finding members to fill your group any quicker. GW2 has a lot going into it. And thus far all I'm hearing from people who have tried GW2 is that it's the MMO everyone has been waiting for. People say a lot of things. It's probably the same guys that say every new game that comes out is some other game's "killer". Rarely does it ever turn out to be the case. I'm interested in GW2 but I seriously doubt it's "the MMO I've been waiting for". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vanisle Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 i rolled Sorc full heal and it allows me to stand back and keep people alive or start dishing out DPS if needed - fairly versatile role I find. I don't find there are any true healers in this game unless maybe Sorc wasn't the best class to fill that role? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackavaar Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) The need to have a balanced group for almost anything in this game is a perception that payers bring with them from other games. You can run almost any 4 man Heroic or Flashpoint with mixed groups of DPS and off-tanks or even duos. Healing is not necessary if people carry level appropriate med packs and work together with a common strategy and Tanking can be accomplished just as easily by a DPS if they do more than just stand in front of the enemy and mash buttons. To counter this perception, if you are DPS try forming your own groups, instead of depending on others to invite you. Edited February 24, 2012 by Blackavaar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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