Has anyone done the champ commendation math?

[NineInchNinja]

or it could be 24 if it's a relic, or 36 if it's an ear piece or implant.

 

And I don't use anecdotal evidence to guess at statistics. I took the number of bags people in my guild have collected since they changed it. 154 bags with 8 drops, 3 of which were duplicates. I would do more research, but as I said, my guild has basically given up on PvP.

 

For those saying that this is better than other games, you sound like someone saying that being in prison is fine, because there are worse prisons. Wouldn't you rather not be trapped in this grind to become competitive?

 

There are games, popular ones, that do not have a tiered system at all. League of Legends and Guild Wars don't have tiers, at least not that make players more powerful. Once you've reached max level in LoL, you're on the same terms as anyone else, and while you're getting to level 30, you're competing against others around the same level and record. In GW, you can create a PvP character from day 1 that is the same level as everyone else you're competing against.

 

Then there are the FPS games. Counterstrike has been played for over a decade now, and there are no rewards for winning other than self satisfaction.

 

Lastly, don't you think that having a tiered gear system undermines the competitive ranking system they're planning for 1.2?

[Xenthum]

You can have literally full cent with a sprinkle of Champ in 4 days if you saved up 1000/1000 before hitting level 50.

I just did it, only doing Dailies/Weeklies and 4 days, full expertise gear. NOT hard. A little longer for champion gear. Battlemaster really is the only gearing that takes any time.

[Stranger_LDR]

n00b -.-

 

at least he isn't exploiter.

[jitsuo]

No you didn't. Champion bags are unique, you can only possess one before level 50.

 

Kind of meant 5 bags worth in tokens saved up, gives you a much needed jump start, but that's what I mean. Hate the cap though :/

Edited February 23, 2012 by jitsuo

[HanSollo]

IKR OP has the right idea when people hit 50 the best gear should be mailed to us immideatly all BM gear for all possiable spcs along with some extta mods and enhancements so i can further custom make my stats..........*** BW why do i have to work for things:rolleyes:

[_droider_]

PvP up to level 50, makes it about 10x easier. I had 5 bags by level 22 just doing casual PvP

 

I'm assuming you mean 1k/1k comms and not actual bags...because, you know, the purchased ones are unique. The most you can have when you hit 50, without any other PVP is 1(inventory)+5(comms). It would be in everyone's interest to do this if they desire to PVP.

[NineInchNinja]

Hey OP, what are you doing with all those centurion commendations? You can have a full set of pvp gear in 3-4 days with the current system... Its not the best gear, but it make you a threat and keeps you from getting Rofl stomped.

 

Actually, I got ridiculously lucky. In the first week after I hit 50, which was before the change to the bags, I got all 5 set pieces of armour, gloves, an ear piece and a relic. I've since bought my main and offhand.

 

So I'm not whining because I'm undergeared here. I'm whining because this system caters to the people who:

 

1) Play the most, rather than win the most

or

2) exploit the most

 

It effectively punishes those who are good at pvp but can't play 4 hours every day by putting them at a disadvantage. It also punishes those who try to play by the rules or PvP for fun, because it takes them significantly longer to become competitive.

 

As for Centurion gear, yes, I glossed over it, because it's not the point here. Yes, you can get Centurion gear fairly quickly, which does make you MORE competitive. However, you are still at a disadvantage based on time spent farming rather than time spent winning. When you're traveling from a to b on Ilum and you run into that guy who has been bridge farming for weeks and has full BM, you're already at a significant disadvantage based on nothing other than time spent.

 

The availability of Centurion gear is not really relevant to what I'm proposing here. Tiered gear systems like this tilt the playing field. People who support a tiered gear system always sound, to me, like they don't want a level playing field, because they're not secure in their ability to compete.

[jitsuo]

I'm assuming you mean 1k/1k comms and not actual bags...because, you know, the purchased ones are unique. The most you can have when you hit 50, without any other PVP is 1(inventory)+5(comms). It would be in everyone's interest to do this if they desire to PVP.

 

I did mean that. It's pretty easy to spend commendations freely on gear and then have 1000/1000 saved up by the time you hit 50. Merc commendations are a ***** to get but once you have 1000, it's fairly easy to keep them saved, give a MUCH needed jumpstart to PvP since most decked out level 50's will absolutely destroy the newbies.

[ErrantMercenary]

Just wondering if people have added this up.

 

7 commendations per bag. Chance of an item dropping is estimated at 5%, which with the possibility of getting duplicate items, is essentially negligible.

 

Number of commendations needed for armour and relics: 635

(relics x2 = 48, belt and arms = 88, armour pieces x 5 = 335, main hand 123, offhand 41)

 

Number of commendations needed for implants and ear piece: (36x3) 108

 

total for full champ set: 743

 

It's not perfect math, but let's remove 5% of that for the random drops. -38= 705.

 

Divide by 7 commendations per bag = 101 bags.

 

First of all, that's the wrong way to knock the 5% off. An unassembled item token represents a commendation jump of one complete item. If you add up the cost of all the items and divide by the total number of items, a random item has an average commendation cost of ~68 (rounded up from 67.54).

 

Assuming you're not a casual player, and can complete both dailies and both weeklies every week, you're collecting 20 bags per week. Add 5 bags from commendations, and you have 25 bags per week.

 

Now we're going to use your numbers to further extrapolate on above, given this model, you have on average, a chance at 1 item token every week (close anyway, 1 in 25 is 4%, which is a good enough approximation to demonstrate my point). So in week 1, you generate (25 x 7) + 68 = 243 commendations in a week. So this model knocks it down to approximately ~3 weeks.

 

 

Now, think of that from a developer's standpoint. This a gearset even casuals and semi-casuals and compete at the highest levels (Champion is competitive with Battlemaster)can get in we'll call it triple that time. So if this is where you call it quits, BioWare has basically 2 months to develop and deploy new PvP content for you to enjoy otherwise youre sitting stagnant with no new goal to work towards.

 

 

That's nothing at all.

 

Go grind out an Excalibur in vanilla FFXI and you'll know what a real grind is (P.S. it required AT LEAST, if you were LUCKY, ONE MONTH of being logged in and doing stuff excluding wait times to accomplish and it was ONE ITEM)

[Spifnar]

Your benchmark should be how long it takes to get a piece of PvP gear in every slot. Champ or Cent. That's the point at which you're now completely decked in 51+ purple gear.

 

Cent has 3/4 the expertise that champ does. It really is pretty close. Plus, a third or so of your gear will be Champ....making it even closer

 

Full PvP gear is only 1-2 weeks for a casual

Edited February 23, 2012 by Spifnar

[NineInchNinja]

ErrantMercenary

 

I bow to your math skills. Your numbers are more accurate and do make more sense than mine. Thanks for the correction.

 

However, I still haven't seen a logical argument for a tiered gear system. The answers I've seen so far can be summarized as:

 

1) It's faster to get geared in swtor than in other games.

 

This is the "This pile of poo is good because it tastes better than the other piles of poo" argument. Wouldn't you rather eat something else?

 

Yes, it is faster, unless you're comparing to actual competitive PvP games like Guild Wars and MOBAs, where guild and player rankings have some meaning. In those games players enter the battlegrounds on level footing. SWTOR could do this too if it removed PvP gear and extended the bolster system to the 50 bracket.

 

2) The op wants his gear to be handed to him on a silver platter

 

This is the "You need to grind to be rewarded" argument, otherwise known as "MMORPGS are endless grinds get used to it."

 

Actually, I want to be rewarded for reaching level 50 with fun rather than a second job. Wouldn't you rather be rewarded for reaching level 50 with something fun, rather than more grind?

 

Think outside of that box that the old MMORPGs have put you in please. There are many games out there that do not require grinding at all. Aside from the above online game examples, do you have to grind to have access to all of the pieces on a chessboard? Do you have to compete in X number of matches before you can have 6 players on the ice in hockey?

 

Of course not, because those games are fun in their own right, just like the war zones are fun in their own right. Why do you accept this mechanic in competitive online play? Putting tiered gear in the game only upsets balance and puts some people at an unfair disadvantage

 

3) You can still beat someone in higher tier gear if you're skilled

 

True, assuming the other player is less skilled. Although, I really would like to see a 1v1 with a skilled player in greens against a less skilled player in BM. The BM will do 10% more damage to you AND take 10% less damage from you, meaning (mathematically) he kills you 20% faster. ie if your standard attacks did 1000 damage, you would do 900 to him while he did 1100 to you.

 

Combine that with the stats giving him around 2-4000 more health and at least 140 more in his primary stat, and the difference is pretty significant.

 

If you are as skilled as you think, wouldn't you much rather have a balanced playing field to demonstrate it, rather than one where people just point at your gear as the reason you won? Didn't you have more fun in the 10-49 war zones, where the bolster system made people more equal? (although obviously not totally equal)

 

And this sort of system undermines the legitimacy of any ranking system swtor develops. This sort of system is exactly why people laugh at people who brag about their WoW ranking.

 

The people at the top will have BM gear. The people at the bottom will have greens and blues, and will not progress until they're in BM gear, regardless as to how good they are. Teams will accept new players based on their gear rather than their skill.

 

Anyway, I guess no one here is actually interested in a level playing field, and is quite comfortable with the accepted norm for MMORPGs of rewarding grinding with more grinding.

[EternalFinality]

1) It's faster to get geared in swtor than in other games.

 

This is the "This pile of poo is good because it tastes better than the other piles of poo" argument. Wouldn't you rather eat something else?

 

You've admitted even by your own flawed math that you can get FULL EPICS in a month.

 

A MONTH. You do know that this is a subscription MMO? That there's supposed to be enough content FOREVER?

 

I thought people in some other MMOs were spoiled, but this takes the cake.

Edited February 23, 2012 by EternalFinality

[PostalTwinkie]

what? Im seeing inflated battlemasters all around me.. I haven't even seen them in wz before. Gear should be obtained MUCH HARDER than it is now.

 

On my server, fresh 50ies imperials go to ilum and farm battlemaster there (cosidering u've been doing pvp before hitting 50 it's pretty damn easy). Then it's a matter of 1-2 weeks to get decently geared.

 

And it's not the way it should be... Battlemaster gear, every noob wears now, should be somewhere around rank 80-90. And ilum should be shut down permanently.

 

The reason you see them is there was a brief period where they were able to abuse the system and obtain BM in a day, and most their gear.

[Tinboy]

Six weeks of barely putting in any effort for the second best gear for pvp in the game is too much? Here's a question for you, is this your first MMO? This is probabaly one of the fastest gearing MMO's I've ever seen. Furthermore, artifact gear bought off the GTN isn't that much worse compared to champion. I'm sure you have enough credits for this cause when I hit 50, I already had 500k credits and I wasted at least 200-300k crafting useless armstech stuff that never sold.

[Keldaur]

6 weeks for the second best PvP gear in the game. Not a bad deal, imo.

 

I got it in less than 2 weeks with both my 50. Ofc, those were the days when getting champion was so easy, so we could get a gap advantadge between fresh 50s quickly.

[furiousferret]

On my first character it took me roughly 3 weeks to get full champ; that was in the drop system and people hatedd me because I was very lucky. My new main hit 50 after the new system was in and after 3 weeks and about 4 days played I am about 2/3 of the way there. No drops at all (which is annoying) just commendations. At this point I dont want a drop because it will probably be a duplicate and tick me off.

 

Getting full champ will end up taking more time than leveling 1-50 for me; i think the system is okay, but i dont think Centurion gear is anywhere near close to Champion. Maybe its because I'm melee and gear matters, but full Centurion isnt that good.

[Fan_Atic]

Just wondering if people have added this up.

 

7 commendations per bag. Chance of an item dropping is estimated at 5%, which with the possibility of getting duplicate items, is essentially negligible.

 

Number of commendations needed for armour and relics: 635

(relics x2 = 48, belt and arms = 88, armour pieces x 5 = 335, main hand 123, offhand 41)

 

Number of commendations needed for implants and ear piece: (36x3) 108

 

total for full champ set: 743

 

It's not perfect math, but let's remove 5% of that for the random drops. -38= 705.

 

Divide by 7 commendations per bag = 101 bags.

 

Assuming you're not a casual player, and can complete both dailies and both weeklies every week, you're collecting 20 bags per week. Add 5 bags from commendations, and you have 25 bags per week.

 

So, for a fairly committed player, it will take 4 full weeks of doing dailies and weeklies to get a full champion set.

 

I am semi casual, and spend a fair amount of my gaming time doing PvE with my guild, so I probably represent a typical casual player. If I'm lucky I get 10 dailies done and 1 weekly done each week, and maybe 3 commendation bags a week.

 

16 bags a week means around 6 weeks of slog to get champion gear.

 

Why do I bring this up? I just don't think this is the best way to reward players who have gotten themselves to level 50. When you reach level 50, you should feel powerful, but in this system it will take at least 3 weeks of being slaughtered in 3 hits before you start to feel like you're on par with your opponents.

 

Many people, especially casual players, will and do give up on PvP with this sort of mechanic. As I've mentioned in another post, in my guild of 8 people, most casual players, I am the only one left doing war zones regularly.

 

I wrote a post on this here, describing why I'm confused and frustrated with this system, and why I don't believe tier based systems work, if you're interested.

 

Otherwise, does anyone have ideas for a better system than this?

 

 

Maybe this has been said didn't read the whole thread but you took the 5% off of number of comms. That's not a good place to do it. And most gear cost as much as the 38 you removed or a lot more.

 

Think of it like this you said 100 bags well 5% or 5 of those bags are very likely to contain full pieces which could save you 100's of needed coms and many many bags not just 38 coms. I think it'd be very reasonable to say 3 and half weeks 4 at the most will likely complete your set on the new system.

 

Getting a set bonus token alone would save you 9 bags a mh would save you 17

Edited February 23, 2012 by Fan_Atic

[NineInchNinja]

You've admitted even by your own flawed math that you can get FULL EPICS in a month.

 

A MONTH. You do know that this is a subscription MMO? That there's supposed to be enough content FOREVER?

 

I thought people in some other MMOs were spoiled, but this takes the cake.

 

You're right. What was I thinking? I mean, an MMO that I pay a monthly subscription for should definitely entertain me with hours of grinding! God forbid they make the game entertaining WITHOUT the grind at all!

 

The people eating this poo should stop complaining! The other poo tastes way worse! They should be grateful for the poo they have and pay for rather than say asking for something that doesn't taste like poo at all!

[Kyntari]

What is it with all these people that want to turn every MMO into MOBA/CS? If you came for 'competitive PvP', you're playing the wrong game.

 

Gearing up in TOR is not hard. And no, you shouldn't be rewarded merely for hitting 50, as it's a non-accomplishment.

 

If it tastes like poo to you, stop eating it. Continuing to eat it and complaining isn't the solution.

[OldSwab]

It seems like they kinda' intend for you to get fairly close to 60 before you finish your champ gear, doesn't it? I mean it's almost like they're intentionally stretching it out before you unlock a new tier...

 

Spooky.

 

If Ilum isn't insanely unbalanced during prime time on your server, and if you can get out there, and if your computer doesn't blow up, you will pick up Valor about 5 times as fast with 1/5 the frustration. That's a lot of ifs, I know, but compare farming (legitimately) 25-50k valor in a couple of hours, plus your daily, plus your weekly, to 500-1200 valor per crap WZ match. How many sorc+sorc+jugg+tech premade 6-0 Huttball matches can you stand for (maybe) 500-1200 valor, depending on which side you're on?

 

Point being, with Valor comes BM, and with BM comes 15 champ comms/bag + chance at BM toys