Garroda Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) All these games have same problems in PvP that lead to steady declines after initial subscriptions run out...it has become the standard that the community has just come to expect and the game devs never ever correct. 1) Release game with unbalanced bugged PvP (maybe PvE too, but this is a PvP thread) 2) Imba classes and peeps with too much time on their hands level to max early and farm noobs to become "Gosu L33t" and nye invincible. 3) Whines on how unfair this all is leads to nerfs 4) Eventually nerfs and gradual leveling of the rest of the community lead "Gosu L33t" to no longer be ny invincible. Non-skilled PvP players that relied on gear advantage/class imba rage quite game after mass forum flames on devs proclaiming "The Next Big Thing" will be the solution. (Today that happens to be GW2) 5) The rest of the PvP player base sees a 50% reduction thru general attrition over the next 3-6 months. Game Dev staff suffers mass layoffs. 6) "The Next Big Thing" is released. PvP community sees another mass exodus. 7) 1 year after release, game develpoers finnally ballance PvP issues. The die hard last 10% who are on an IRL first name basis by now, are the only ones left to see the intended PvP experience. Epilogue: Die Hard 10% is playing "The Next Big Thing" too....rinse and repeat... Edited February 23, 2012 by Garroda Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
troppersir Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 okey why dont you djust go back to wow like all other ahters about this game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarthRik Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 All these games have same problems in PvP that lead to steady declines after initial subscriptions run out...it has become the standard that the community has just come to expect and the game devs never ever correct. the games in the title, ok lets look at what you have writen shall we 1) Release game with unbalanced bugged PvP (maybe PvE too, but this is a PvP thread) and this is a PVE game, so unless its a pvp game its very hard to balance 2) Imba classes and peeps with too much time on their hands level to max early and farm noobs to become "Gosu L33t" and nye invincible. so becuase they have time to play, you say thats a bad thing? 3) Whines on how unfair this all is leads to nerfs just like on the wow forums, yet you missed that off your list, at it has the wrost most unbalanced pvp there is in an mmo 4) Eventually nerfs and gradual leveling of the rest of the community lead "Gosu L33t" to no longer be ny invincible. Non-skilled PvP players that relied on gear advantage/class imba rage quite game after mass forum flames on devs proclaiming "The Next Big Thing" will be the solution. (Today that happens to be GW2) so this is a QQ thread and you are trying to say that GW2 will be better? 5) The rest of the PvP player base sees a 50% reduction thru general attrition over the next 3-6 months. Game Dev staff suffers mass layoffs. nice numbers, you find them in a big mac box. 6) "The Next Big Thing" is released. PvP community sees another mass exodus. happens with every mmo, and whats this next big thing? 7) 1 year after release, game develpoers finnally ballance PvP issues. The die hard last 10% who are on an IRL first name basis by now, are the only ones left to see the intended PvP experience. wow thats impressive, this guy can see the future Epilogue: Die Hard 10% is playing "The Next Big Thing" too....rinse and repeat... how will i sleep tonight so this thread is just a QQ thread because in other mmos, and in this one you have been getting pwnd because other players spent more time playing and there for get better gear than you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrotardNosef Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) 3-7 are logical pts stemming from one to the next. 1-2 though are incorrect blanket statements. PvP and class imbalance are grossly overstated. I play a Sage, I'm well aware of the differences between my abilites and my Sorc counterparts. Sure shock travels faster than project... its essentially a massless ball of energy moving at lightspeed, not a massive rock... they should travel differently. Force wave is a lil annoying with the jump up and down animation, but generally I only use it when I want to separate myself from someone, so in most instance if I push you away or you push me, everything is kosher in my books. What people tend to gloss over are the advantages a Sage has. Weaken Mind has basically no cast animation or particle effect, so you can stand around looking like you're doing nothing while you DOT the whole enemy team, preventing them from capping. Similarily, Force quake is just me standing still with my hands at my sides. The Sorc equivalent however is basically a giant bullseye- "look, im floating and lightening is spraying from my chest into the air and back to the ground." TKT vs FL is the same sorta deal- I'd much rather spam microscopic dust particles from a corner than arcing blasts of purple-blue lightening. I can't speak for other classes, but I expect Scoundrel's have certain animations that are much better than their operative counterpart. Commando/BH as well... commando might take a lil longer setting up mortar volley, but he'll probably get to cast his full ability whereas as soon as the bounty hunter flies up in the sky every monkey and their uncle casts an interrupt on them. Other than the turrets on Alderaan (which have been fixed supposedly with the latest patch) all levels are perfect mirrors of each other, so how are they imbalanced? Edited February 23, 2012 by BrotardNosef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nixterida Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I agree with the op. I played Warhammer from 2009 to 2010 and it was a very enjoyable experience. Maybe in 1-2 years SWTOR will be enjoyable too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olympic Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) I agree with the op. I played Warhammer from 2009 to 2010 and it was a very enjoyable experience. Maybe in 1-2 years SWTOR will be enjoyable too. If they had copied the good part of Warhammer (the RvR) instead of the bad parts (resolve, etc), it already would be... Edited February 23, 2012 by Olympic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kabaal Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) From the way they talked this game up i'd hoped for a new a new and improved WAR PvP experience. So much for that. For all it's flaws WAR certainly has that side of the game down better than TOR, by a large margin. Edited February 23, 2012 by Kabaal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldManRelic Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) If they had copied the good part of Warhammer (the RvR) instead of the bad parts (resolve, etc), it already would be... WAR had a DR system. Not Resolve. Also, WAR had (and still has, AFAIK) huge issues with things like magic versus physical damage mitigation. DAOC is where we should be looking for inspiration. Gear should be a means to an end (reaching PVP-specific stat caps). The REAL differences should come in what PVP-specific skills you buy with Valor. PvE is completely unaffected under this system, and PvP balance issues are tweaked on a skill-by-skill basis. The granular nature of that system makes for easier balancing going forward. Ilum would be redesigned to have a few major goals that affect the entire faction, and lots of little goals that encourage the player base to spread out and fight in non-blob warfare. This isn't friggin' rocket science. Devs need to learn to stop trying to re-invent the wheel. Execution matters more than trying to come up with new ideas just to appease the folks over in Marketing. Edited February 23, 2012 by OldManRelic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Space-Guerrilla Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Aion was great Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DefaultACname Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is definitely a qq thread by someone who should probably take a class or two on how game developing works, or at least read a damn book. It took World of Warcraft years to get its polish, same with Warhammer. This game has been out for two months. Everyone has been comparing it to other MMOs and forgetting the simple fact this is not those game nor was ever intended to be. The whole plan was for something different. You want Warhammer style PvP? Go play Warhammer. You want the QQ coddling WoW PvP? Go play WoW. On another note GW2 is the next best thing? Didn't they say that about GW? I don't see that game being played much by anyone. Nor did I upon its release. So I truly am baffled at how you can claim it's the Next Big Thing. You won't know until it comes out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xscott Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 SWTOR is Warhammer Online with Lightsabers, and PVE content. I am also amazed that they are making the same mistakes that has left Warhammer a ghost town. I remember when warhammer was seriously losing subscribers. They made the same complaints that you are all making in SWTOR. They learned from some major mistakes, but are not doing anything about it. oh yeah, and when Warhammer was realesed, .. all they did was make confident promises that they were fixing/adding things. They never really did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LordCrow Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 just wonder whats reason posting here anyway... 90% kids here who stayed are just blind fanboys and the rest do not look here ^^ all those mmos realesed in past 7 years after WoW failed... thats the fact no one can deny ^^ so for me rather better question is why anyone would be so naive to believe that this mmo can survive? aspecial that what we got is something like 50% of game... and in compare to another big title:Tera first closed beta...... SWtor is just a joke....how is this possible anyway that first closed beta of Tera looks faaaar better than this game two and half months after realese.. every mmo will fail simply cause players waiting for another big blizzard title and only then when new blizz mmo realese all WoW players will change their home.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigerix Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 the games in the title, ok lets look at what you have writen shall we and this is a PVE game, so unless its a pvp game its very hard to balance so this thread is just a QQ thread because in other mmos, and in this one you have been getting pwnd because other players spent more time playing and there for get better gear than you? stopped reading right there. what the motherfoxtrot are you talking about you rediculous bridge guardian. You have Sage and you have Sorceror, and all they had to do was give them the exact same animations connected to the exact same skills with just different skins. THAT is BALLANCE right there, NOT DIFFICULT. Even now they can replace the retarded rock/droid/trash from ground throw with an instant effect. Someone just feels the animation is cool (which it very well might be) so they dont do it. Anyways, that was just one example, they borked up every class i can think of other than JK/Warrior which are a none factor classes anyways. If you disagree, than get back to me when you see a JK putting up a video of 1mil dmg in a single WZ. p.s. and just so that i do not appear to be talking out of my arse like you, ill give examples of further animation issues. Knife FASTER than shutgun animation, kick roots smugler, IA stun does not. Full Auto loses 1 round if hit, mortar valley has longer animation before dmg occures. Lets not forget the Sorc's hve a stun that works on full resolve people, needless to say, sage does not. And last thing, even if they fix all this crap today, right now, it is still too friggin late. Republic is way too far behind, way too outgeared and outmanned, fixes will not save the game alone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afflictionz Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 okey why dont you djust go back to wow like all other ahters about this game Lmao you fanboys have such a one track come back mind... The OP said NOTHING about wow and yet you say the same old comment. "go back to wow". I could ask you, "hey man, want a sandwich?" and you would be like, "nah man why don't you go back to wow!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jigerix Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) SWTOR is Warhammer Online with Lightsabers, and PVE content. I am also amazed that they are making the same mistakes that has left Warhammer a ghost town. I remember when warhammer was seriously losing subscribers. They made the same complaints that you are all making in SWTOR. They learned from some major mistakes, but are not doing anything about it. oh yeah, and when Warhammer was realesed, .. all they did was make confident promises that they were fixing/adding things. They never really did. 100% spot on. Read this article if you want, it is about why WAR failed and point by point you can just replace WAR with TOR and every point is spot on. http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/44427.aspx I just have to say that Mythics killed pvp in 2 games, and it makes me sad. Edited February 23, 2012 by Jigerix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yfelsung Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Aion was great Not if you're allergic to weeaboos. I break out in hives whenever a weeaboo gets within 20 feet, be it in real life or digitally. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
venjinze Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) All these games have same problems in PvP that lead to steady declines after initial subscriptions run out...it has become the standard that the community has just come to expect and the game devs never ever correct. 1) Release game with unbalanced bugged PvP (maybe PvE too, but this is a PvP thread) 2) Imba classes and peeps with too much time on their hands level to max early and farm noobs to become "Gosu L33t" and nye invincible. 3) Whines on how unfair this all is leads to nerfs 4) Eventually nerfs and gradual leveling of the rest of the community lead "Gosu L33t" to no longer be ny invincible. Non-skilled PvP players that relied on gear advantage/class imba rage quite game after mass forum flames on devs proclaiming "The Next Big Thing" will be the solution. (Today that happens to be GW2) 5) The rest of the PvP player base sees a 50% reduction thru general attrition over the next 3-6 months. Game Dev staff suffers mass layoffs. 6) "The Next Big Thing" is released. PvP community sees another mass exodus. 7) 1 year after release, game develpoers finnally ballance PvP issues. The die hard last 10% who are on an IRL first name basis by now, are the only ones left to see the intended PvP experience. Epilogue: Die Hard 10% is playing "The Next Big Thing" too....rinse and repeat... PvP gear in Rift wasn't all that great, you could run end game instances or raids, get gear from there and be competitive. Aion... aside from melee classes getting boned (having to finish a skill in a stationary position while opponent runs/flys away) the game itself was good. It was a 'hardcore' MMO and PvP gear was very dependant on your factions ability to take/hold/defend keeps in the abyss. If anything more games should learn from this mechanic, it actually required people to PvP in order to be able to run the end game content and get the best PvP gear. Edited February 23, 2012 by venjinze Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComeAndSee Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Never played Rift or Warhammer, but I played Aion. Aion had the worst balanced PvP I've seen (which is typical with Korean games). I mean you had classes with 8s silences that had 18s cooldowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garroda Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 This is definitely a qq thread by someone who should probably take a class or two on how game developing works, or at least read a damn book. It took World of Warcraft years to get its polish, same with Warhammer. This game has been out for two months. Everyone has been comparing it to other MMOs and forgetting the simple fact this is not those game nor was ever intended to be. I am not QQ, just making the point that EVERY MMO including WoW takes a year+ get get PvP ballance and learn the same lesson they should have learned from all the previous MMO's. BTW, everyone keeps quoting that it is a PvE focued game and PvP is a second thought. This is a GARBAGE argument. If they put PvP in at all then it shoudl be ballanced and polished. A 1/2 *** implementation just to say you have PvP (if that is what happended) is a shameless "See, we have this feature too" $$ grab. PvP spec spec points of some kind WILL COME...Why the #### should I have to wait 1year plus for something that should reasonably be available at launch? And please, don't try and dismiss my comments as some fly by night n00b who can't manage to finish a win 3/3 daily. I have been an elite PvP player in this game and ALL the ones I listed. I am just tired of having to wait a year for a ballanced, polished experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Afflictionz Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 100% spot on. Read this article if you want, it is about why WAR failed and point by point you can just replace WAR with TOR and every point is spot on. http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/44427.aspx I just have to say that Mythics killed pvp in 2 games, and it makes me sad. Good post, article says alot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macnernie Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 DAOC is where we should be looking for inspiration. Ding Ding Ding, we have a winner. There needs to be an open world like the old DAOC days. And replace the gear imbalance. A fresh 50 is just cannon fodder once he plays big boy PVP. There should be a difference between a fresh 50 and a seasoned 50, but the current imbalance is just too damn big in my humble estimation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panzerbase Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 If the people at GW2 want a huge success, all they need to do is read these forums. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garroda Posted February 23, 2012 Author Share Posted February 23, 2012 Good post, article says alot /agree I miss DAoC (Well in it's prime after they fixed all the CC issues) and while I played Warhammer for 2 years, I could not have been more dissapointed in their inability to address basic class/realm balance issues. On a side note, WAR did introduce the concept of a "Defensive Target". This was the best MMO idea ever, and a specific benefit to PvP. I fail to see why all games don't use this now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keldaur Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 100% spot on. Read this article if you want, it is about why WAR failed and point by point you can just replace WAR with TOR and every point is spot on. http://www.brighthub.com/video-games/mmo/articles/44427.aspx I just have to say that Mythics killed pvp in 2 games, and it makes me sad. The guy is spot on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 yeah OP, why can't they release with balanced classes like wow /snicker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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