Arnathis Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Thats the problem with wow though IMO. Its like a round robin of fail. Blizz makes challenging encounters, players make mods, which in bold red letters in the center of your screen, tell you what to do, so blizz has to make their encounters more difficult, players make new mods, blizz makes harder... Then the players QQ that content is too hard and quit. bizz nerfs everything to faceroll again. You do not need this stuff in these games. I understand what you're saying. However, I think it's just the natural progression of things. Games are becoming more and more intricate. Mods and addons are part of the reason why. As a species we're advancing in technology. Eventually you'll just have to wear a headset and your thoughts will be immediately translated into action on your screen (maybe we won't even have screens?). Addons and mods are a step forward in gaming evolution. A clunky UI, fumbling around with tab target, point and click healing are all a step backward. And just to be clear, I don't think any addons that trivialize a fights mechanics by making decisions for a player should be implemented and WoW does a decent job of making sure these never see the light of day. It would take diligence on the part of BW to make sure nobody is cheating but it can absolutely be done. Some may say DBM is one of these addons and I can somewhat agree with this, as long as there are visual and audible queues for different mechanics within a fight I can live with no DBM. However, healing addons and the addon in the vid that tracks my dots the way I want them to be tracked are all things that should be allowed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This game is not for the 5%ers and it never was and it never will be. WoW is not even about this type of gameplay either. Why even make 3 difficulty levels then if everyone is basically the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheisty Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Don't pass off your opinion as fact. How miserable is your life? I am so glad I enjoy my "job" as that takes up so much of my time. I would suggest finding a job you enjoy, you seem to despise like a 1/3 of your life. I enjoy my job as well. But i would rather be home playing video games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 This game is not for the 5%ers and it never was and it never will be. WoW is not even about this type of gameplay either. Untrue. In fact, they reserve the hardest mode boss fights specifically for those that enjoy that type of challenge. Your world where every boss could be zerged by a random group in greens is boring and lame. They have those bosses for you in normal modes. Nightmare should be a LOT harder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewpaco Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 On "nightmare" mode yes. There is other modes for other people. Wrong. Guilds were taking down cutting edge content long before DPS parses were available. They will continue to take them down in the future. Guilds are taking down the Nightmare Mode encounters now without a parse. They will continue to do so in the future. Min/maxing is not essential for anything. I repeat - add a target dummy with a parser, so you can optimize your spec and rotations if you need to. Leave the social plague that infests other games - right where it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheisty Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Why even make 3 difficulty levels then if everyone is basically the same? Progression. One leading to the next. If its not this way then Bioware needs to fix. For example nightmare dropping same loot as hard. This is obviously wrong and needs to be fixed. Edited February 23, 2012 by sheisty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I enjoy my job as well. But i would rather be home playing video games. Not convinced you actually enjoy playing them, I think you may like watching them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheisty Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Not convinced you actually enjoy playing them, I think you may like watching them. LOL I dont need to be bleeding edge min maxer to enjoy video games. Im the 95%er and enjoying it. might not be the best but I dont really care either. its all about social stuff with friends, thats all these games are all about, the game is just the filler for that to happen. Same as bowling or playing pool. Edited February 23, 2012 by sheisty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 LOL I dont need to be bleeding edge min maxer to enjoy video games. Im the 95%er and enjoying it. Looks like another case of someone enjoying being average or below average, while real gamers want to improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 LOL I dont need to be bleeding edge min maxer to enjoy video games. Im the 95%er and enjoying it. So then why are you so opposed to a bleeding edge nightmare mode? I mean you are completely content not doing the cutting edge? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Wrong. Guilds were taking down cutting edge content long before DPS parses were available. They will continue to take them down in the future. Guilds are taking down the Nightmare Mode encounters now without a parse. They will continue to do so in the future. Min/maxing is not essential for anything. I repeat - add a target dummy with a parser, so you can optimize your spec and rotations if you need to. Leave the social plague that infests other games - right where it is. Still waiting for you to not fail that encounter... You now have 2 tanks 3 healers (because you made one dps now lol) and 11 dps. Still wiping. Wonder why..? Except now you dont have enough heals because you asked a random heal spec to add his meager dps to the fight... plus people are dying to lack of heals because you had no way of knowing which healer was lowest and probably chose poorly. So... Which of your dps is underperforming...? And why would you choose to switch a heal to dps when you have no idea who the lowest healer is..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Looks like another case of someone enjoying being average or below average, while others want to improve. I fixed it for you. Don't fool yourself average people put average effort into EVERYTHING they do. Edited February 23, 2012 by Menisong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Wrong. Guilds were taking down cutting edge content long before DPS parses were available. They will continue to take them down in the future. Guilds are taking down the Nightmare Mode encounters now without a parse. They will continue to do so in the future. Min/maxing is not essential for anything. I repeat - add a target dummy with a parser, so you can optimize your spec and rotations if you need to. Leave the social plague that infests other games - right where it is. Answer my questions, please. I'll repeat: Again, who is your weakest healer? Oh, by the way, have you ever completed a HM flashpoint with a group that did not consist of 1 healer, 1 tank, and 2 dps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 LOL I dont need to be bleeding edge min maxer to enjoy video games. Im the 95%er and enjoying it. might not be the best but I dont really care either. its all about social stuff with friends, thats all these games are all about, the game is just the filler for that to happen. Same as bowling or playing pool. People bowl and play pool professionally and use several tools and techniques to improve their skills. But in your world, none of them should be allowed to improve just so that you could be allowed to slop your way through every level of play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarkwingGT Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'm not sure I understand this "unique snowflake" argument. Ok, you feel that your playstyle will be criticized if there are combat logs. My question is this, in every encounter that's resolved by combat (which is to say basically all of them save a puzzle boss or two), winning is binary, there is no grey. At the end of the fight, one side is left standing and that's the winner. All combat is resolved in one simple way, whichever side has their HP fully depleted first loses. This is also simple fact. Now, let's say you win. Great, no one looks at combat logs when you win. Some might but basically no one is criticized if you win. So really the only scenario you'd be concerned about is if you lost. The argument boils down to this, "I have my preferred method of play style and just because some cookie cutter min/maxer says it's not optimal then I will get unfairly discriminated against." My answer is simply this, if your way is better, the numbers will undeniably justify it. If the min/maxer approach says you should produce X and your "special" way produces X - Y, then clearly your way is not better. We're a group, I don't care if you want to be a special snowflake, if your play style means we lose every time, then simply put I don't want you in my group. This is not discrimination. This is simple reality. I'm not going to go in to group combat knowing I can not win. The flip side is this will give you great validation if you're right. If your way is superior and us min / maxers are truly just trying to pigeon hole you, step up and prove it. Numbers do not lie. Of course anything taken to the extreme usually ends up in misfortune, however that's just human nature. Dismiss the outliers and run with like minded groups. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Wrong. Guilds were taking down cutting edge content long before DPS parses were available. They will continue to take them down in the future. Guilds are taking down the Nightmare Mode encounters now without a parse. They will continue to do so in the future. Min/maxing is not essential for anything. I repeat - add a target dummy with a parser, so you can optimize your spec and rotations if you need to. Leave the social plague that infests other games - right where it is. Reason for this is that nightmare modes are easier than normal bosses in other games. I said there is SUPOOESED to be 3 levels for players of different skilllevels and dedication. Nightmare modes are SUPPOSED to be for serious raiders and easier modes SUPPOSED to be for not so serious raiders. As you said that is clearly not the case atm, but BW has stated that they are adding combat logs and atfer that there will be meters also, then they can do harder content into the game. Its not a shame to do normal and hardmodes if youre not so into the raiding but original idea behind having 3 difficulty levels was to make content for casuals aswell to hardcores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnathis Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Okay look, BW obviously implemented three different tiers of operations for a reason right? Can we agree on that? Personally I don't think it was to just let everyone clear everything within a week of it's release, they'll have to spit out new content at an unsustainable rate. I think it was to offer content that attracts the widest array of players possible. Currently, nightmare modes are being cleared even by the most casual of casuals. I don't think this is the end goal they had in mind. It's possible they've deliberately left out combat logs and meters to allow themselves time to collect data and work a lot of other issues out before having to spend time and resources tuning fights to the exact difficulty they want. I stated in a post earlier, there are over 22,000 guilds in wow that have killed at least one heroic mode boss in its current raid tier on either 10 man or 25 man. Heroic modes in WoW are far tougher than nightmare modes in swtor at the moment. Anyone who acts like the people looking for challenging content are too small a populace to count for anything needs to think again. Do the math. Again, nobody is looking to make all content so hard that it takes hundreds of wipes to kill a boss. However, a lot of people would like a difficulty level where this kind of challenge is open to them if they want it. Without logs or meters or addons there will be no way to create these types of challenges. Sure you can make a boss hit extremely hard or have an insane amount of health but eventually that get's boring. If you watch the video I posted earlier in this thread you can see just some of the mechanics that wouldn't be possible without these features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewpaco Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Still waiting for you to not fail that encounter... You now have 2 tanks 3 healers (because you made one dps now lol) and 11 dps. Still wiping. Wonder why..? Except now you dont have enough heals because you asked a random heal spec to add his meager dps to the fight... plus people are dying to lack of heals because you had no way of knowing which healer was lowest and probably chose poorly. So... Which of your dps is underperforming...? And why would you choose to switch a heal to dps when you have no idea who the lowest healer is..? Because that's what Trial and Error is all about and raiding with a guild is all about. It is about going through struggles as a group together, overcoming those struggles as a group together, and succeeding. MMO raiding is not about 1 attempt at a Boss - whipe to an enrage timer, run a parse - and boot the lowest performing member. Running raids like that is for punk sissies. The Hardcore guilds don't do this. They understand that perhaps it is situational awareness learning curves that need to be experienced before fully getting the encounter. DPS parses severley hinder this learning curve for players, because there ends up being too many toolbags interpreting data incorrectly, and making quick snap decisions that they arent qualified to make. This is part of the reason these parses hurt communities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Because that's what Trial and Error is all about and raiding with a guild is all about. It is about going through struggles as a group together, overcoming those struggles as a group together, and succeeding. MMO raiding is not about 1 attempt at a Boss - whipe to an enrage timer, run a parse - and boot the lowest performing member. Running raids like that is for punk sissies. The Hardcore guilds don't do this. They understand that perhaps it is situational awareness learning curves that need to be experienced before fully getting the encounter. DPS parses severley hinder this learning curve for players, because there ends up being too many toolbags interpreting data incorrectly, and making quick snap decisions that they arent qualified to make. This is part of the reason these parses hurt communities. Im glad that ToR has so great community unlike almost every MMORPG in past 15 years with logs and parsers. Never seen this much carebear people in a mmorpg that thinks they are entitled to clear all content. What comes to hardcore guild,s thats exactly how they work if they got the data, now its all just down to guessing. There is no trial/erro on personal level atm, just people guessing whos bad and whos not. Anyway, dmg logs and parsers are gonna come like BW said, this thread is about ETA on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Because that's what Trial and Error is all about and raiding with a guild is all about. It is about going through struggles as a group together, overcoming those struggles as a group together, and succeeding. MMO raiding is not about 1 attempt at a Boss - whipe to an enrage timer, run a parse - and boot the lowest performing member. Running raids like that is for punk sissies. The Hardcore guilds don't do this. They understand that perhaps it is situational awareness learning curves that need to be experienced before fully getting the encounter. DPS parses severley hinder this learning curve for players, because there ends up being too many toolbags interpreting data incorrectly, and making quick snap decisions that they arent qualified to make. This is part of the reason these parses hurt communities. Still waiting... You don't know which healer was the lowest, so how did you choose him..? Your DPS is slow, and you're wiping to the boss' enrage. Which DPS is slow... and why? Hardcore guilds use the data. They know how to interpret it in the context of the fight mechanics. Obviously you've never been in one. And... again... I'm glad you're not a real raid leader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Because that's what Trial and Error is all about. And there you have it. Chepaco has one problem solving technique in his toolbag....trial and error. Some of us want a variety of tools to improve our game play..not just limited to trial and error. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arnathis Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Because that's what Trial and Error is all about and raiding with a guild is all about. It is about going through struggles as a group together, overcoming those struggles as a group together, and succeeding. MMO raiding is not about 1 attempt at a Boss - whipe to an enrage timer, run a parse - and boot the lowest performing member. Running raids like that is for punk sissies. The Hardcore guilds don't do this. They understand that perhaps it is situational awareness learning curves that need to be experienced before fully getting the encounter. DPS parses severley hinder this learning curve for players, because there ends up being too many toolbags interpreting data incorrectly, and making quick snap decisions that they arent qualified to make. This is part of the reason these parses hurt communities. I don't think anyone's gonna use a meter to kick a player doing a couple hundred dps lower on a fight. But if it's more like they're doing half the damage of someone of the same class/spec/gear level I think they should be held accountable for it, you don't? I don't identify with the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality sorry. I'm not into backpack achievements, I like to feel like I earned the rewards I got. Edited February 23, 2012 by Arnathis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewpaco Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Still waiting for you to not fail that encounter... You now have 2 tanks 3 healers (because you made one dps now lol) and 11 dps. Still wiping. Wonder why..? Except now you dont have enough heals because you asked a random heal spec to add his meager dps to the fight... plus people are dying to lack of heals because you had no way of knowing which healer was lowest and probably chose poorly. So... Which of your dps is underperforming...? And why would you choose to switch a heal to dps when you have no idea who the lowest healer is..? You truly beleive that those 4 healers are all being stretched to the very limit of their abilities just to keep everyone alive? This is where you are so wrong. How many raid encounters have I finished in the past with 50% of my mana left as a healer, and a DPS was booted for having the lowest parse? A TON, and it's wrong. Raid leader could have asked for healers to contribute a little on the dps side. But raid leaders that min/max like nazi's don't run raids this way anymore, because they think they know it all - You know nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternalFinality Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You truly beleive that those 4 healers are all being stretched to the very limit of their abilities just to keep everyone alive? This is where you are so wrong. How many raid encounters have I finished in the past with 50% of my mana left as a healer, and a DPS was booted for having the lowest parse? A TON, and it's wrong. Raid leader could have asked for healers to contribute a little on the dps side. But raid leaders that min/max like nazi's don't run raids this way anymore, because they think they know it all - You know nothing. So, you going to answer my questions or not? It's clear you're dodging them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You truly beleive that those 4 healers are all being stretched to the very limit of their abilities just to keep everyone alive? This is where you are so wrong. How many raid encounters have I finished in the past with 50% of my mana left as a healer, and a DPS was booted for having the lowest parse? A TON, and it's wrong. Raid leader could have asked for healers to contribute a little on the dps side. But raid leaders that min/max like nazi's don't run raids this way anymore, because they think they know it all - You know nothing. Obviously you havent done any serious raiding. Also how much mana healer has at end doesnt really say anything meaningfull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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