Chewpaco Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Don't even try it. All of your posts here make it clear that you don't have a clue. And this quote proves it beyond all doubt... The very fact that you would say something like that proves to every raider in this thread that you have no idea what you're talking about. You have 4 healers for a reason. Because that's how many you need to keep your raid alive. If you didn't need that many, you wouldn't take that many, in the first place. The tanks have other jobs, and any decent tank is always going to contribute as much as he can to dps, unless it's a stop-dps situation. The fact is, you have no way of knowing which one of your dps isn't performing up to par. It could be the guy with weak gear, but it definitely could also be a guy in good gear that is either slacking, or doesn't understand his own class very well... But you have yet to provide one single word as to how you would identify which people are underperforming, and instead you've offered up very laughable "solutions". 'nuff said. Again I repeat. That is what the new min/maxers say, because it is justification for your own self worth. You can't seem to grasp your limited imagination around the idea that one does NOT have to be perfectly specced for that exact encounter in order to succeed. I feel sorry for gamers like you and people that TRULY BELEIVE what you believe. Because then yes, you are a SLAVE to your spec. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Im 37 so dont know which games he was hardcore raiding almost 40 years ago. I'm 41, so I'm guessing that he was raiding on ENIAC, and using punchcards to perform all of his awesome rotations... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Again I repeat. That is what the new min/maxers say, because it is justification for your own self worth. You can't seem to grasp your limited imagination around the idea that one does NOT have to be perfectly specced for that exact encounter in order to succeed. I feel sorry for gamers like you and people that TRULY BELEIVE what you believe. Because then yes, you are a SLAVE to your spec. You fail again to answer the very basic question... Your raid is wiping to the boss' enrage timer... Which of your dps is underperforming, and why..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskaan Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Your raid is wiping to the boss' enrage timer... Which of your dps is underperforming, and why..? He doesn't care; he wants his healers to contribute to the DPS without changing the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Again I repeat. That is what the new min/maxers say, because it is justification for your own self worth. You can't seem to grasp your limited imagination around the idea that one does NOT have to be perfectly specced for that exact encounter in order to succeed. I feel sorry for gamers like you and people that TRULY BELEIVE what you believe. Because then yes, you are a SLAVE to your spec. Or you fail to see that wether it is absolutely needed or not doesn't matter. Some players like to min/max, you don;t like it...play with like minded players. It is really that simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 End game content in EQ 1 on the Legends server (which you payed double for so you could have a server wide community raid schedule) in the top guild Township Rebellion, all the way through the Gates of Discord expansion. World of Warcraft - I came and went from, but particpated at different times in my life from Vanilla through the Lich King - missed alot of BC raiding because of RL stuff going on. Cant say much about EQ1 except comon censuss seem to be that it introduced raids as they are nowdays, but had much bigger raids which brings the difficulty alone, everyone new to the raiding, finding that much competent people etc. Games has evolved lot from that, just like vanilla wow looks hard in rose tinted glasses. But i can releate on WoW better than EQ1 so tell what did you kill in WoW and was it close to release of the instance or just before next tier instance came along? Btw, both games had logs or parsers in form or another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You fail again to answer the very basic question... Your raid is wiping to the boss' enrage timer... Which of your dps is underperforming, and why..? Smite it down *****es! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewpaco Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You fail again to answer the very basic question... Your raid is wiping to the boss' enrage timer... Which of your dps is underperforming, and why..? How many times do I have to answer it? Can you not read? IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO THE LOWEST PERFORMING MEMBER IS. Look at your resources as a WHOLE IN YOUR RAID GROUP. Were your Healers stretched to the VERY LIMIT before Boss hit enrage timer? I think not. Could a DPS acted as the 2nd tank to give you that little extra? Probably yes. Could you have gone with one less healer and had a DPS spot heal for OH NO! Moments? Probably yes. These are scenarios that NEVER get explored anymore in games that use combat parsers, because your imaginations have become limited to spreadsheet analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Or you fail to see that wether it is absolutely needed or not doesn't matter. Some players like to min/max, you don;t like it...play with like minded players. It is really that simple. I'm actually not a min/maxxer like he claims... He's just using that as an excuse because he can't answer a simple question... He thinks that min/maxxing forces people into cookie-cutter specs, but, really, anyone who has been involved in min/maxing in the past knows full well that there is a lot of disagreement, especially at the top. And any player who grabs that FOTM cookie-cutter spec because someone on the internet told them it was good is just as bad of a player as someone who doesn't understand their class at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) How many times do I have to answer it? Can you not read? IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO THE LOWEST PERFORMING MEMBER IS. Look at your resources as a WHOLE IN YOUR RAID GROUP. Were your Healers stretched to the VERY LIMIT before Boss hit enrage timer? I think not. Could a DPS acted as the 2nd tank to give you that little extra? Probably yes. Could you have gone with one less healer and had a DPS spot heal for OH NO! Moments? Probably yes. These are scenarios that NEVER get explored anymore in games that use combat parsers, because your imaginations have become limited to spreadsheet analysis. In hard tunes bosses, there is exactly optimal amount of healers, tanks and dps. Now, tanks are tanking and doing as much dps as they can at same time, healers are healing their *** off and are all very low on mana, boss enrages ar 5% health left. Which dps you drop from the group? Edited February 23, 2012 by Forsbacka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XOrionX Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 You fail again to answer the very basic question... Your raid is wiping to the boss' enrage timer... Which of your dps is underperforming, and why..? Not to interrupt your debate.. But if a dps was underperforming, would you boot them? Or attempt to rectify the situation first? I play with all rl friends and family, so I don't have to worry about anyone flying off the handle and booting anybody. If anything, we try and coach echother to be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JediElf Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) Not to interrupt your debate.. But if a dps was underperforming, would you boot them? Or attempt to rectify the situation first? I play with all rl friends and family, so I don't have to worry about anyone flying off the handle and booting anybody. If anything, we try and coach echother to be better. That's what real gamers do. They help each other. Edited February 23, 2012 by JediElf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 (edited) That's what real gamers do. They help each other. Depends what your guild is set for but in non very serious enviroment, thats the idea. Edited February 23, 2012 by Forsbacka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 How many times do I have to answer it? Can you not read? IT DOES NOT MATTER WHO THE LOWEST PERFORMING MEMBER IS. Look at your resources as a WHOLE IN YOUR RAID GROUP. Were your Healers stretched to the VERY LIMIT before Boss hit enrage timer? I think not. Could a DPS acted as the 2nd tank to give you that little extra? Probably yes. Could you have gone with one less healer and had a DPS spot heal for OH NO! Moments? Probably yes. These are scenarios that NEVER get explored anymore in games that use combat parsers, because your imaginations have become limited to spreadsheet analysis. Actually, those are scenarios that get explored by any good raid leader before you ever set foot into the instance. It isn't a composition issue. You brought 4 healers because you need them TO ACTUALLY HEAL. Your tanks are doing their job and adding as much dps as they can already. You have 10 DPS, but you're still wiping to the boss's enrage timer. Which of your DPS is underperforming, and why..? It's not a hard question, but you've yet to answer it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 I'm actually not a min/maxxer like he claims... He's just using that as an excuse because he can't answer a simple question... He thinks that min/maxxing forces people into cookie-cutter specs, but, really, anyone who has been involved in min/maxing in the past knows full well that there is a lot of disagreement, especially at the top. And any player who grabs that FOTM cookie-cutter spec because someone on the internet told them it was good is just as bad of a player as someone who doesn't understand their class at all. Thats why I believe if you simply play with like minded players all of this stuff is nonsense and disappears. Its players that want to join "best guild on server" and raid the hardest content and get the PHAT loot, while at the same time despise and dissagree with that guilds way of running things. Yet inspite of the fact they dont want to raid 5 nights a week, hate their loot rules, don't want to be parsed at the end o fth day they still try to join that guild. People need to be honest with themselves and simply play with other players at their level, share a similar playstyle and enjoyment of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewpaco Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 In hard tunes bosses, there is exactly optimal amount of healers, tanks and dps. Now, tanks are tanking and doing as much dps as they can at same time, healers are healing their *** off and are all very low on mana, boss enrages ar 5% health left. Which dps you drop from the group? You drop nobody. Your assuming that every player in that raid currently has best in slot gear available to him at that point in time. Doesn't happen that way - sorry. Today's gamer expect to clear content so fast without spending adequate time to get everyone within the raid equally geared or a previous encounter farmed to the max to allow yourself the best opportunity to advance as a whole. Rather than revisitng a previous raid or farming a particular boss for another 6 or 7 raid wide upgrades, you move on to the next encounter - expecting to win and advance. Guilds today put in about 1/10th of the effor EQ 1 guilds put in to get an entire guild geared up enough to move on. That is a fact. the solution today is run a parse and kick the lowest member and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Not to interrupt your debate.. But if a dps was underperforming, would you boot them? Or attempt to rectify the situation first? I play with all rl friends and family, so I don't have to worry about anyone flying off the handle and booting anybody. If anything, we try and coach echother to be better. I have had situations as an officer where a dps was performing far below par. Not minimally, as in a few percentage points, but rather half of what someone else with similar gear and fight obligations was doing. In such a case we would work with that person to try to understand what they were doing wrong and help them... But that only goes so far. You can not sacrifice the welfare of your entire raid group at the behest of someone who just isn't improving no matter how much you try to help them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Menisong Posted February 23, 2012 Share Posted February 23, 2012 Rather than revisitng a previous raid or farming a particular boss for another 6 or 7 raid wide upgrades, you move on to the next encounter - expecting to win and advance. . There you go. He hasnt raided since EQ. Every single top raid guild I have ever seen does EXACTLY what you described above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 You drop nobody. Your assuming that every player in that raid currently has best in slot gear available to him at that point in time. Doesn't happen that way - sorry. Today's gamer expect to clear content so fast without spending adequate time to get everyone within the raid equally geared or a previous encounter farmed to the max to allow yourself the best opportunity to advance as a whole. Rather than revisitng a previous raid or farming a particular boss for another 6 or 7 raid wide upgrades, you move on to the next encounter - expecting to win and advance. Guilds today put in about 1/10th of the effor EQ 1 guilds put in to get an entire guild geared up enough to move on. That is a fact. the solution today is run a parse and kick the lowest member and move on. Stop talking nonsense. Answer, optimal group setup, enough geared, boss enrages 5% left everytime, which dps aint doing his job, how you single him out and what do you do to correct the issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XOrionX Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 (edited) I have had situations as an officer where a dps was performing far below par. Not minimally, as in a few percentage points, but rather half of what someone else with similar gear and fight obligations was doing. In such a case we would work with that person to try to understand what they were doing wrong and help them... But that only goes so far. You can not sacrifice the welfare of your entire raid group at the behest of someone who just isn't improving no matter how much you try to help them. I totally agree. In that case I would move them to the B or C (if I had a C) raid/ops group and see if someone could work with him/her to bring them up to par. Also I feel it's important to rotate players in and out of raid groups, that way everyone is getting the experience and chance at loot while making the overall strength of the entire guild more solid. Min/max'ing isn't my cup of tea. However, combat logs and parsers are a very useful tool. I think they should be implemented. Edited February 24, 2012 by XOrionX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskaan Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Stop talking nonsense. Answer, optimal group setup, enough geared, boss enrages 5% left everytime, which dps aint doing his job, how you single him out and what do you do to correct the issue? Over gear the content, wait for it to get nerfed or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewpaco Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 Actually, those are scenarios that get explored by any good raid leader before you ever set foot into the instance. It isn't a composition issue. You brought 4 healers because you need them TO ACTUALLY HEAL. Your tanks are doing their job and adding as much dps as they can already. You have 10 DPS, but you're still wiping to the boss's enrage timer. Which of your DPS is underperforming, and why..? It's not a hard question, but you've yet to answer it. I'm through talking to you - because I have answered the question the way that i am going to answer it. You don't appear to like the way I answer it. Sorry, too bad for you. So how can any good raid leader make any assumptions whatsoever, that is worth anything, without ever once stepping foot into the encounter before? Because he watched a Youtube vid? Please - get real. He knows the exact way to compose his raid based off of what he saw on TankSpot vs. experiencing encounters himself? Sounds like a great raid leader to me. Remind me to never join a raid you are associated with - thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskaan Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 There you go. He hasnt raided since EQ. Every single top raid guild I have ever seen does EXACTLY what you described above. But, but... he used to raid when we were all in our diapers. That definitely makes him an expert in modern day hardcore raiding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taroen Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 I totally agree. In that case I would move them to the B or C (if I had a C) raid/ops group and see if someone could work with him/her to bring them up to par. Also I feel it's important to rotate players in and out of raid groups, that way everyone is getting the experience and chance at loot while making the overall strength of the entire guild more solid. Min/max'ing isn't my cup of tea. However, combat logs and parsers are a very useful tool. I think they should be implemented. I agree completely with that. We routinely will switch out a couple of main players that may not need a drop at that point to bring in one or two lesser geared/experienced players, so that they can learn the encounters and have a chance to get loot, especially if it's gear that no one else can use... and especially on farm content. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forsbacka Posted February 24, 2012 Share Posted February 24, 2012 But, but... he used to raid when we were all in our diapers. That definitely makes him an expert in modern day hardcore raiding. This was his gaming mouse back then. http://www.cyberpunkreview.com/cyberpunk-history/pc-demoed-in-the-mother-of-all-demos-09-dec-1968/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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