Same gender relationships clarifications?

[sevenpsych]

I don't want it to be a matter of 'if'....

 

...I want it to be a matter of 'when'.

 

And the question of when should never be answered by any Dev team no matter what the issue or the project except to their bosses.

 

The question of if should only be answered when it becomes a priority or a possibility to conclude an answer to it, which if they haven't decided to implement, or when they will attempt to design and then implement... then you don't get either answer.

[Rayla_Felana]

Here is you in the Q&A thread, complaining that the largest crowd was not answered...

 

"SGRA crowd, the biggest crowd in the last Q&A thread, has been ignored completely, again, I see."

 

Thats passive aggressive, and exactly my point.

 

I don't lack understanding of what you want, just how you choose to go about illustrating your wishes.

 

And here's the response you should and will get everytime you ASK for information about something that must be developed. "TBA" or "TBD" Nothing more.

 

We in no part have ever stated that we are the most important, just the most vocal in that particular thread, we also never demanded that such information should be given above all else.

 

We asked for information, a hell of a lot of us have been asking for information through all sorts of communication channels.

 

Also, I'd like to know exactly how Bioware thinks, as you seem to do, even though many times Bioware has done the exact opposite of what you have stated, regarding other features.

 

We asked for Information, simple as that, if you have a problem with that, then that is just your problem isn't it.

[Jenovan]

I don't want it to be a matter of 'if'....

 

...I want it to be a matter of 'when'.

 

"If" has, it would seem, already been decided: the answer is yes, so that one's not even on the table. (Yay!) "When" is a whole other can of worms.

 

 

My own thoughts:

hear a lot of arguing that from the SGRA because the SGRA's are loudest and most forceful (pun intended) that for some reason that means they should get answers. I would say this argument should be left out of everything you post in the future if you want a community to be behind you. We would all love some more intriguing story arcs with our companions, but the loudest group about a rather niche request is going to be the most despised group, and developers have a priority to the game as a whole well before a loud, yet small group of forum posters.

 

If they went through all the work to implement, for example 2A, before they fixed and implemented a huge number of things in this game that are far more important to overall gameplay, I would quickly cancel. Not because i don't want the same things as you, but because it only shows that their priorities would be so out of whack this game would quickly deteriorate into something I would never want to touch.

 

Its a game and an RPG, and the largest groups of people subscribing and playing are not going to be the loudest on the forums, but they will be the ones who quit when their unheard wishes don't come true in lieu of a few poorly implemented same sex story lines to sate the wishes of a minority group (who I don't see clamoring for new WZ's, or animation timing changes, or crafting changes, or innumerable bug fixes...) who are at this point asking for entirely new content from a team who is going to be banging their heads against the wall for a year after a fresh release just to get the current bugs and problems fixed.

 

You want to be loud, and all you are going to be is polarizing.

 

 

 

You seem to be conflating two things: requests for information with demands for implementation. As has been said repeatedly in the last several pages of this thread, most of us are not demanding SGRAs be implemented immediately. Certainly not as vigorously as ... I don't know, any 5 other features you could think of off the top of your head. (Planet-to-ship travel? Color matching? Nerfs for class A, as demanded by class B?)

 

Most of us just want to know what kind of implementation to expect so that we can play the characters we want to play -- or not. This is the kind of planning that should be done before any programmatic work starts, and if, going by Reid's earliest statements, this content was intended for "soon after launch", we could hope it's at least in the planning stages at this point. Content like new flashpoints were planned ages ago.

 

If they truly have made no plans for SGRA content since September -- after stating it would be included "soon" -- it seems like a very poorly judged statement for them to have made at that time. And given how finely manicured statements about future content tend to be, I personally find that unlikely.

 

We haven't gotten a "TBD" on this matter since September. We haven't gotten anything. You are suggesting taking a different tactic than asking -- what would that be? Because you seem to be suggesting doing nothing and hoping someone notices.

[sevenpsych]

If they truly have made no plans for SGRA content since September -- after stating it would be included "soon" -- it seems like a very poorly judged statement for them to have made at that time. And given how finely manicured statements about future content tend to be, I personally find that unlikely.

 

We haven't gotten a "TBD" on this matter since September. We haven't gotten anything. You are suggesting taking a different tactic than asking -- what would that be? Because you seem to be suggesting doing nothing and hoping someone notices.

 

Now THAT is true. Any statement of timeline in something that is not already done and in the next patch is a poorly planned statement. Legacy levels and information on it has been far more fleshed out though remains hugely vague, and that is labeled as being soon -in the game- not just in dev posts.

 

Bioware has been poorly communicating with those who are SGRA, their first mistake was making any allusion to time of implementation. Fixing it would not be making another statement relating to ETA, but in fact just releasing it.

 

The information you are looking for as far as how its going to be implemented, may as well be up to your imagination, because it's highly doubtful that its been in development, or even to a point where its solid enough to be released from a planning stage alone to the public. If they released weak information again, and you all went picking characters, then it fell through... its just another problem.

 

Letting you flounder without information until it is actually going into a testing phase, at least leaves them with the only real mistake of saying it would be "soon."

[Suaine]

#1 is inviting trouble.

 

Like them answering the hood question, the mini games question or any other with a vague "not done yet" invited them to do the same? I don't see how giving us an idea about SGRAs current status within development is any different from those things.

 

#2 2a is completely unfeasible and sloppy. 2b could work but is very sloppy and would only get bashed for leaving something again with less than perfect implementation.

 

So what you're saying is adding the option to old content is "sloppy" and adding it to new content is "sloppy" so what does that leave us? Perhaps they could do those things and do them well? Do you not trust them to be able to integrate something new into their story?

 

My own thoughts:

hear a lot of arguing that from the SGRA because the SGRA's are loudest and most forceful (pun intended) that for some reason that means they should get answers. I would say this argument should be left out of everything you post in the future if you want a community to be behind you. We would all love some more intriguing story arcs with our companions, but the loudest group about a rather niche request is going to be the most despised group, and developers have a priority to the game as a whole well before a loud, yet small group of forum posters.

 

If people are going to "despise" us just for bringing it up in threads specifically designated for asking our burning questions, discussing the answers or here? Well, then I guess we'll have to accept it. I think the majority of the community is just fine, there's just some people who don't like to be reminded that we exist.

 

And sure, the developers have their own priorities. No one has any illusion of knowing them, not to mention being able to change them. We're not delusional.

 

If you want to believe that we're a tiny, vocal minority, you go ahead. I'll go on believing that a significant population actually cares about this stuff enough to keep asking, beyond LGBT gamers themselves to guys who want to romance Mako on their female BH or girls who want to see their male Smuggler get with Corso. It's not just coming from this thread, it's not some organized guerilla attack on your sensibilities.

 

If they went through all the work to implement, for example 2A, before they fixed and implemented a huge number of things in this game that are far more important to overall gameplay, I would quickly cancel. Not because i don't want the same things as you, but because it only shows that their priorities would be so out of whack this game would quickly deteriorate into something I would never want to touch.

 

Okay, you know what, you might as well cancel now. They will implement it before the game is perfect, because the game will never be perfect. A huge number of things more important? Well, isn't that just completely subjective? To me, this issue is pretty much the most important thing. I have other pet issues, but this may well be a gamebreaker for me the longer it takes. Some of us have already given up.

 

Its a game and an RPG, and the largest groups of people subscribing and playing are not going to be the loudest on the forums, but they will be the ones who quit when their unheard wishes don't come true in lieu of a few poorly implemented same sex story lines to sate the wishes of a minority group (who I don't see clamoring for new WZ's, or animation timing changes, or crafting changes, or innumerable bug fixes...) who are at this point asking for entirely new content from a team who is going to be banging their heads against the wall for a year after a fresh release just to get the current bugs and problems fixed.

 

So what you're really saying is that millions will quit because Bioware can't read their minds? If people do not say what it is they want to have fixed or improved, how could Bioware possibly know? You should also realize that in-game customer service directs anyone who cares enough to make a ticket about SGRAs to come here. Bioware appears to want us here.

 

And let me just tell you this: no, I do not clamor for warzones, animation time changes or crafting changes. Do you know why? I could not care less for PvP and I like crafting the way it is and eagerly await what else they have in store for us there. Crafting, unlike this topic however, is something that we know the devs are working on and can reasonably expect regular updates, not least of all because the devs are actually talking about it.

 

You want to be loud, and all you are going to be is polarizing.

 

We want to be heard, and if that will incur us the wrath of a few forum denizens, then I guess we will have to deal with that.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Noviru

[sparklecat]

And the question of when should never be answered by any Dev team no matter what the issue or the project except to their bosses.

 

The question of if should only be answered when it becomes a priority or a possibility to conclude an answer to it, which if they haven't decided to implement, or when they will attempt to design and then implement... then you don't get either answer.

 

Pretty sure a customer who bought a product on the understanding that there would be something they required added later on has a perfect right to enquire as to timescales. And what, precisely, that something was likely to be, if that knowledge affects their current use of the product.

 

 

We were told "post-launch". It's post-launch. Time for another update.

[sevenpsych]

Pretty sure a customer who bought a product on the understanding that there would be something they required added later on has a perfect right to enquire as to timescales. And what, precisely, that something was likely to be, if that knowledge affects their current use of the product.

 

 

We were told "post-launch". It's post-launch. Time for another update.

 

Every day after launch is post launch.

 

They have every right to inquire... not necessarily to be answered though.

[sparklecat]

Every day after launch is post launch.

 

They have every right to inquire... not necessarily to be answered though.

 

My point is, it's poor customer service to leave us this long without a substantive update on when and what we might expect, in relation to something that was promised months ago and then had every question regarding it ignored by the developers.

 

 

And sure, they don't have to answer us. But they're answering other questions. They're putting in content that wasn't promised pre-launch. Is it really any surprise that I'm not exactly thrilled with their handling of the matter? This is not the optimal way to encourage repeat business.

[Uluain]

Letting you flounder without information until it is actually going into a testing phase, at least leaves them with the only real mistake of saying it would be "soon."

Overlooking, of course, the mistake of implementing only opposite-gender content at launch, rather than waiting until it all was ready to go, that is.

 

In fact, they didn't say "soon after launch". A quick refresher of the September Announcement, and Mr. Reid's comments on this at the time:

 

"Due to the design constraints of a fully voiced MMO of this scale and size, many choices had to be made as to the launch and post-launch feature set. Same gender romances with companion characters in Star Wars: The Old Republic will be a post-launch feature. Because The Old Republic is an MMO, the game will live on through content expansions which allow us to include content and features that could not be included at launch, including the addition of more companion characters who will have additional romance options."

 

"First of all, this is definitely not an audience that consists of a 'couple of people' and we're aware of that. We take this decision very seriously.

"Second, it's very important to realize that this is just one of many, many content additions that will be going into the game post launch. The vast majority of our content will be of interest to the vast majority of our potential audience.

 

"However, one of the amazing things about MMOs is that over time we can get to add things that are exciting and interesting to smaller audiences. Normally, that's not something that's addressed too far ahead of time. In this case, we felt the addition was warranted and should be addressed early.

 

"There will be plenty of content for all to play and enjoy."

 

"We can't guarantee that a character you play at launch would have romance options 'unlocked' for an existing companion. It's something that will be taken into consideration when making design decisions. Not a promise it'll happen, but we'll take that feedback and relay it through to design.

"We fully intend to do justice to the story in our storylines. [biggrin]

 

"As you may have heard, we take story very seriously - this included.

 

"Lastly for those of you who seem concerned that you will be 'tricked' into any romance arc in the game - all romance choices are clearly marked. You will be aware you're making those choices as you make them."

 

So if anything, the announcement was of content "far ahead". How far, of course, is anyone's guess.

 

It is not unreasonable to want an update. A statement given to a pre-launch audience of prospective future customers is less than helpful to an audience of post-launch paying customers playing the game as it stands.

[sevenpsych]

My point is, it's poor customer service to leave us this long without a substantive update on when and what we might expect, in relation to something that was promised months ago and then had every question regarding it ignored by the developers.

 

 

And sure, they don't have to answer us. But they're answering other questions. They're putting in content that wasn't promised pre-launch. Is it really any surprise that I'm not exactly thrilled with their handling of the matter? This is not the optimal way to encourage repeat business.

 

True, through and through. They should not have answered any questions as far as SGRA unless they were going to properly support that answer with followups.

 

This is not to say that the answers that have been given in Q&A were not already in development before the questions came from the community, or that new content was not being developed even before the SGRA issue. You and I have a specific lack of information being that we are not in the planning/dev team for bioware.

[LyriaFrost]

This does not mean I think it is realistic to expect information, or be frustrated any further with it considering the length of time its been. Any changes in the status of your concerns will either be negative in the form of no information or a denial of any implementation, or a positive affirmation of implementation.

 

Seriously? You honestly think it's not realistic to expect them to clarify something they said five months ago? To provide ANY further information?

 

So in essence, you think people should just drop the issue entirely, I take it? That's a more "realistic" thing to do?

[sevenpsych]

Overlooking, of course, the mistake of implementing only opposite-gender content at launch, rather than waiting until it all was ready to go, that is.

 

In fact, they didn't say "soon after launch". A quick refresher of the September Announcement, and Mr. Reid's comments on this at the time:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So if anything, the announcement was of content "far ahead". How far, of course, is anyone's guess.

 

It is not unreasonable to want an update. A statement given to a pre-launch audience of prospective future customers is less than helpful to an audience of post-launch paying customers playing the game as it stands.

 

 

I agree, it was a mistake, it should've been a priority as soon as you decide to implement any sort of courting scenario.

 

I would expect the quotes above to lead the reader to believe an expansion will include the SGRA features though, as they were specific to mention expansions.

[sevenpsych]

Seriously? You honestly think it's not realistic to expect them to clarify something they said five months ago? To provide ANY further information?

 

So in essence, you think people should just drop the issue entirely, I take it? That's a more "realistic" thing to do?

 

Yes, I think after 5 months of being ignored, Bioware or their customer service representatives have made it quite clear, they aren't approaching the matter further until they deem it possible or necessary. This is their prerogative, no matter how many times it is asked in Q&A. I would say logically that continuing to request the feature makes sense until implementation, but to belabor previous statements is not going to get anyone anywhere with a dev team who just released a massive MMO.

[Jenovan]

Overlooking, of course, the mistake of implementing only opposite-gender content at launch, rather than waiting until it all was ready to go, that is.

 

In fact, they didn't say "soon after launch". A quick refresher of the September Announcement, and Mr. Reid's comments on this at the time:

 

(Sidebar: I'm feeling very strongly that there is a Gold statement somewhere that does include the words "soon" and "after launch" in close proximity. We need a quote index -- and perhaps a new and up-to-date first post -- really badly. :S )

[sparklecat]

True, through and through. They should not have answered any questions as far as SGRA unless they were going to properly support that answer with followups.

 

This is not to say that the answers that have been given in Q&A were not already in development before the questions came from the community, or that new content was not being developed even before the SGRA issue. You and I have a specific lack of information being that we are not in the planning/dev team for bioware.

 

Oh, I'm sure they choose which questions they answer in the Q&A based upon what they want to answer already.

 

 

Thing is, some people have received emails in response to concerns they've raised with customer service which suggest this content is currently in development; it's absolutely ludicrous if that's the case and they're simply not responding publicly in order to avoid controversy. Beyond the impression someone mentioned earlier that they do see us as something to be ashamed of/keep hidden away, it is absolutely not something that should be our job as customers, to each enquire one at a time and be updated by email if we want first-hand information.

[LyriaFrost]

Yes, I think after 5 months of being ignored, Bioware or their customer service representatives have made it quite clear, they aren't approaching the matter further until they deem it possible or necessary. This is their prerogative, no matter how many times it is asked in Q&A. I would say logically that continuing to request the feature makes sense until implementation, but to belabor previous statements is not going to get anyone anywhere with a dev team who just released a massive MMO.

 

Sorry, but I categorically deny any argument that I, or anyone else, should just "go sit in the back and wait."

 

Let's hear some of the things that you feel are "so much more important" then, hm? I'm sure there are plenty of them that I could tell you could easily be put off. I'd look at your posting history, but you've ONLY been posting in this one thread, and constantly telling people to, in essence, "shut up and wait." So I question your motives.

[Uluain]

You have been waiting none the less...

And sitting at the back of the bus, as well.

[sevenpsych]

Oh, I'm sure they choose which questions they answer in the Q&A based upon what they want to answer already.

 

 

Thing is, some people have received emails in response to concerns they've raised with customer service which suggest this content is currently in development; it's absolutely ludicrous if that's the case and they're simply not responding publicly in order to avoid controversy. Beyond the impression someone mentioned earlier that they do see us as something to be ashamed of/keep hidden away, it is absolutely not something that should be our job as customers, to each enquire one at a time and be updated by email if we want first-hand information.

 

Emails handled by customer service that are not in line or in conjunction with additional public statements to me implies a poor customer service team, or a lack of common talking points amongst all CS.

 

Bad customer service or crossed wires somewhere would be the least surprising thing ever in the history of customer service.

 

Hiding opinions away doesn't seem to be something they are making any effort at, as its quite obvious when you read the forums and the Q&A's which features are being requested.

[Uluain]

Monday Q&A Update, since we're spinning our wheels anyway.

 

As of my current tally, at 70 / 687 posts, same-gender content questions are just a hair over 10% of the thread. This puts us pretty much where we were last week.

 

If you have yet to post to this week's Community Q&A Thread and would like to ask for an update on the status of same-gender content, remember that the thread will be closed at some point tomorrow, so sooner is better than later.

 

These current numbers are from a running count, and I cannot assure their accuracy. Once the thread is closed, I will make a fresh count, and share the numbers here.

 

In the words of the Customer Service team:

 

"We encourage you to continue post in the Q&A thread, however, as the Community team may be able to provide you with further information from the developers on the subject. Although not all questions will be answered directly in the Q&A blog, hot issues such as these are still at the attention of developers."

Edited February 27, 2012 by Uluain

[sparklecat]

Emails handled by customer service that are not in line or in conjunction with additional public statements to me implies a poor customer service team, or a lack of common talking points amongst all CS.

 

Bad customer service or crossed wires somewhere would be the least surprising thing ever in the history of customer service.

Yes. Which is a problem with something they've acknowledged to be a "hot topic", and one which is getting many questions on the Q&A, many of which are from people who don't actively post in this thread. I have no idea what percentage of the game reads/posts on the forums, or how representative the ~10% of the questions is of the people interested in this issue, but I think it's definitely at least at the point where they need to be answering questions both consistently, and constructively. Emphasis on 'answering'. What they're doing right now is increasing frustration and bad feelings amongst customers, which is a bad idea when it comes to any issue, much more so with such an emotionally charged one.

Hiding opinions away doesn't seem to be something they are making any effort at, as its quite obvious when you read the forums and the Q&A's which features are being requested.

Not so much hiding away opinions as the fact that they plan to cater to gay customers. Which is rather surprising, coming from Bioware, and rather pointless, given that they've already said the content is going to be in. If it really is currently in development, they need to say so to everyone, not just people who email in.

[Sireene]

Hey everybody!

 

We've noticed that this thread is starting to get a bit off-topic so we wanted to take a quick moment to remind you all to please keep all replies constructive, on-topic, and respectful of others.

 

We realize that this is a very important topic that can quickly become derailed or heated, and we value all of your opinions, however we'd like to keep the discussion as respectful and constructive as possible.

 

Thanks!

[sevenpsych]

If you really want to make the leap of logic that goes from "they aren't talking about it" to "they haven't even thought about development yet" I can't stop you. Quite a few people have done so in this thread out of frustration and in the absence of any new information. Some of them have already left the game, maybe for good.

.

 

I'm getting exhausted trying to parse posts to quote. I'm going to just reply in summary, I think when you decide to implement a game with romance options, ALL options should be explored and implemented. I think we can agree on that.

 

I don't think its a leap in logic to assume that there are a multitude of scenarios that could easily arise behind the scenes that would keep information from being publicly available. I do not choose to assume that the group requesting SGRA is being marginalized, or that it is not in development, or that it is being ignored. I choose to say, its simply not being addressed.

 

"Why not? When will anyone know?" These are impossible questions I choose to take issue with, and recommend they not bother being asked.

 

That and what seems to be the idea (amongst some who post, or at least imply with their posts) that the number of times an issue is mentioned makes it relevant or should be kept track of.

[sevenpsych]

Not so much hiding away opinions as the fact that they plan to cater to gay customers. Which is rather surprising, coming from Bioware, and rather pointless, given that they've already said the content is going to be in. If it really is currently in development, they need to say so to everyone, not just people who email in.

 

I don't think this is catering to gay customers, I think this issue caters to anyone who wants a better RPG aspect for the game in general. As I stated above, if you are going to make romance options in a game, you better include -ALL- of them.

 

Its just proper design in general, at least thats how I feel.

[sparklecat]

I'm straight, I want SGRA, I don't believe that SGRA is being derailed because of any societal inequities. There is not significant evidence to point to that. To imply it is, is to abuse those experiences that are factual and proven in the name of a video game.

 

You implied that we "[hadn't] had problems relating to bias that has nothing to do with a video game and its development timeline/customer service handling".

 

 

Obviously we can't really go into detail here in the thread about how or if treatment of this topic relative to the game parallels treatment of gay people in society, but saying that we shouldn't use metaphors which should be the sole province of oppressed groups strikes me as invalid.

[Uluain]

I'm getting exhausted trying to parse posts to quote. I'm going to just reply in summary, I think when you decide to implement a game with romance options, ALL options should be explored and implemented. I think we can agree on that.

And, further, that they have not been. Correct?

 

I don't think its a leap in logic to assume that there are a multitude of scenarios that could easily arise behind the scenes that would keep information from being publicly available. I do not choose to assume that the group requesting SGRA is being marginalized, or that it is not in development, or that it is being ignored. I choose to say, its simply not being addressed.

Point of fact, the way the game is implemented at presence, same-gender affection is being marginalized, and I think that is as much as is being claimed here.

 

There could be any number of reasons they are not discussing it. None of which - being unknown to us - ought to be reasons for us not to ask.

 

Yes, it is pertinent how frequently a question is raised. People get one question a week. For those seventy people, this is that question - ahead of anything else they may want to know from the developers.

 

Does that compel an answer? By no means. Does it demonstrate the degree of importance this question has, for some not inconsiderable section of the community? Yes, it does.

 

In that respect, it is as much about telling the Developers something they ought to know as anything else.

 

What is it about a running tally that upsets you so much? Is it because it does in fact make it impossible to overlook or minimize the importance of same-gender content to some players?