Same gender relationships clarifications?

[Kioma]

I'm not a computer programmer, and my last computer class involved Hypercard on an AppleIIe, but I don't think it would kill someone to come in here in bright yellow text and say "THIS IS HOW FAR WE'VE COME ON IT." If they were trying some big "We got it all done at once, suprise!" I don't think it is worth the current stress.

 

Yeah, I completely agree there. Surprises are nice and all but in this situation a bit of conversation would make all the difference.

[Kioma]

I am refering the hijacking of the Feb 24th Q&A blog response thread.. The 2nd post in the thread was a rant about how many gold stars something has and how Bioware didn't answer the same sex issue.. It didn't end their and people were not allowed to talk about much of anything else..

 

Well, I can't comment on that. I didn't read it and certainly didn't respond to it. Probably a good thing, by the sound of it.

[Luhrsen]

I suggested a screenshot of the Dune Sea, with not a soul in sight or even so much as a shadow on the horizon as representative of the current degree of same-gender inclusiveness.

 

I can grab some screenshots if you care to see them, but that summary pretty much covers it.

 

I would like that wallpaper!

 

Edit: Also if everyone would quit responding to EvanSnowWolf? That poster is arguing on opposite sides with every other post so it's kind of meaningless besides being off the actual topic. How and when for implementation only.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Luhrsen

[losdia]

I think actually have found a question about TOR that is bugging me more than SGR. Why are people reading the Dev Question thread enough to care how many SGR posts it gets!? I think I have literally seen at least 30 posts today on various threads (all of which where quickly deleted) complaining about people asking SGR questions on the Dev Thread. It is a question dump where there is no discussion allowed. Why would anyone read it? Let alone care what other players are posting, but apparently this is an issue some people have with SGR advocates... :confused:

 

This is a real question. I'm not being sarcastic. I genuinely want to know if I'm missing something here, or if this is just a tactic some trolls are using for reasons that makes sense to them.

Edited February 27, 2012 by losdia

[Uluain]

I think actually have found a question about TOR that is bugging me more than SGR. Why are people reading the Dev Question thread enough to care how many SGR posts it gets!? I think I have literally seen at least 30 posts today on various threads (all of which where quickly deleted) complaining about people asking SGR questions on the Dev Thread. It is a question dump where there is no discussion allowed. Why would anyone read it? Let alone care what other players are posting, but apparently this is an issue some people have with SGR advocates... :confused::confuse:

 

This is a real question. I'm not being sarcastic. I genuinely want to know if I'm missing something here, or if this is just a tactic some trolls are using for reasons that makes sense to them.

I think they are surprised how often it comes up, or how popular a subject it is to ask about.

 

Also, I think a lot of folks are uncomfortable with the idea of same-gender content, who also do not care to admit that. So carping on the number of posts in the Q&A thread is one way to object without looking like a total cretin.

 

Incidentally, for those curious, at 64 out of 590 posts, same-gender content questions are about 10.8% of the total.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Uluain

[Krayna]

I keep hearing this over and over and over again, but to be fair... it hasn't been five months. They said it would be a post launch feature, and launch was December 13th for EGA. So, its actually been less than 90 days. I know that sounds like nitpicking, but hearing this 5 month thing ad nauseum is really bordering on hyperbole. Worded that way, it makes it sound like it was promised IMPLEMENTATION 5 months ago and that is not true.

 

I am not trying to make a point of you but for people that want SGRA its putting their playtime on hold. They dont know if they can play a certain character or have to re-roll. That is why all alot want is just some info. If a person wants to play a bounty hunter but not sure IF Mako becomes a SS option will they have to reroll or should they wait or will it not matter. It takes on average 200 Hours to get a character to 50. Alot of us want it now but we are not demanding implementation now just a bit of info so we can plan and go from there.

 

And yes it has been only 2 months plus since live release but we have gone over 5 months no without any kind of update or new information.

[Kioma]

<sighs slightly>

 

Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

[losdia]

<sighs slightly>

 

Oh well. Back to the drawing board.

 

Shame too, that was a nice post.

[Xeres_Ajani]

I agree, it was very in depth and gave a good reasoning for how the majority of us feel.

[Kioma]

Shame too, that was a nice post.

 

Thank you. Doesn't matter too much, though. The mods are really just trying to keep everything civil. Got to respect that, at least.

[EvanSnowWolf]

I would like that wallpaper!

 

Edit: Also if everyone would quit responding to EvanSnowWolf? That poster is arguing on opposite sides with every other post so it's kind of meaningless besides being off the actual topic. How and when for implementation only.

 

So your problem is that I don't nod my head like a Bobblehead Doll to everything said in this thread? I'm not allowed to have different viewpoints as each specific point is made? This is a Discussion Thread, not an Echoing Chamber. There are some forms of implementation I agree with and others that I do not. I take each point one at a time.

 

What I have said is no less relevant to implementation than some lament about the Dune Sea/Hoth used as a romance companion wallpaper.

[Uluain]

Would it trouble you to be polite?

[Pravis]

And yes it has been only 2 months plus since live release but we have gone over 5 months no without any kind of update or new information.

 

They have responded indirectly about SGR within the last 2 months in response to other questions (eg. question about future companions). Which is why i think that no matter if the devs respond to this question in the next Q&A, unless it is something so specific as in "with patch 1.3", "4 montsh to the date exactly" then people will complain. And the devs will never answer that unless they do have it coded, recorded and almost ready to go. When the devs do answer very generically (eg. when new companions are implimented) then people ignore it and clamor for what they consider is a real response.

[Uluain]

They have responded indirectly about SGR within the last 2 months in response to other questions (eg. question about future companions).

Can you substantiate this?

 

Did it address current companions? Same-gender content beyond the limited scope of companion character romance?

 

There are larger questions being asked than "when". I wish people would quit picking out the least likely part of the clarification while ignoring the larger issue.

 

It's facile, it's dismissive and it's not helpful.

[Nozybidaj]

Would it trouble you to be polite?

 

It appears so, yes.

 

When the devs do answer very generically (eg. when new companions are implimented) then people ignore it and clamor for what they consider is a real response.

 

In the end I do agree with this, and in previous incarnations of this thread stated that any answer they do end up giving is nothing more than words like the original statement. Until those words actually realize themselves into content that I can go out and play it doesn't mean anything. Q&A answers and forum posts don't get my characters out of their perpetual state of waiting in cantinas for proper content to play through.

 

Would it be nice to know what direction they are taking with this (either only new or existing companions)? Sure, as that would help me determine if the content is even worth waiting around for. But just general "we plan to someday maybe add something to the game" political runaround answers are worth nothing.

 

For me the words we do and don't have are enough. After 6 months it is time to see results.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Nozybidaj

[Asphen]

Girl on Girl only.

 

 

 

/thread

[Kioma]

First let me say.. Awsome post and I am quoting it all so others can see it again..

 

Appreciated, though it'll likely get wiped again. Edit: And it seems that it did - or part of it, anyway. Guess someone doesn't like the post I made.

 

This is a video game.. Not just a video game, but a Star Wars video game.. I can not find a single example of same sex or bisexual relations in Star Wars.. Someone at one point said there was..

 

In fact there have been - Goran Beviin and Medrit Vasur. They were a Mandalorian couple mentioned in The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia and the novel Bloodlines - two Mandalorian men who marry and move onto a farm near a Mandalorian city. they live a happy life for, from what I can tell, more than twenty-four years. I linked those in a different thread but the post got wiped.

 

So there is possibly a reason why it wasn't added.. Many of the players of this game are Star Wars purests and may not accept same sex romance in the game.. Just speculation there..

 

Possibly, but if so, the purists are wrong. I've noted some claim that it's not canon if it's not in the movies - which is incorrect, there's a separate classification for non-movie canon, but even if there weren't this game's not in the movies either.

 

The other possible rub is how same sex relations might be addressed in the Jedi order..

 

The same as any attachments, irrespective of gender, I assume: "Don't." Possibly with a Force Wrist-Slap.

 

I whole heartedly believe it should be there.. But there could be some big issues with adding it.. Lucas Arts may not allow it.. EA may not want the bad press that comes from it.. This is a hot button issue.. Not just in video games.. There will be some consequences if it is added.. Worse yet, added badly.. As I said.. I believe it should be there and everyone should have the right to flirt with whomever they want.. This is still a touchy issue so care must be taken as to not offend someone else..

 

And that's all fine. If there are issues there are issues. But unless the developers talk to us we can only assume. And you know what they say about assumptions.

 

So this isn't a cut and dry issue.. It isn't just a matter of equality.. I wish it was, this would be a lot simpler..

 

I wasn't speaking for the issue as a whole, my post only related to my feelings on why I (and, it appears others) feel so strongly on the matter.

 

Some people have requested an option to turn it off.. Should that be added??

 

I don't think so, because the option to avoid such flirts is already there - don't select them. Adding SGRAs doesn't remove heterosexual options, so there's nothing for anyone to actually lose - at least, I haven't seen any convincing arguments, it's mostly 'eww, gay'.

 

In the end.. As I have said.. It should be added.. But, it isn't a simple issue of just adding it..

 

I agree, and I don't think many people assume it's a simple issue. As I said, my post didn't relate to the complexity that Bioware faces, merely my own reflections upon why it's important to me.

 

Again.. I am on your side.. I would like to see it added.. But like you I am one person and have very little effect on the greater decision that has to be made.. Bioware has said they will add it.. So they are on the record of saying they will add it.. The question now is when..

 

That's one question. The bigger question is how.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Kioma

[Nozybidaj]

Appreciated, though it'll likely get wiped again. Edit: And it seems that it did - or part of it, anyway. Guess someone doesn't like the post I made.

 

Probably just got wiped as you replied to a post that got removed. Here you go:

 

Originally Posted by Kioma

I actually think this is a core part of the overarching misunderstanding regarding this issue. I've seen a lot of people stating that we're making a huge deal over some rather lame kiss scenes and some fade-to-black transitions. If you'll indulge me I'll try to explain my perspective on this.

 

Disclaimer: this is my opinion. It's just opinion; feel free to disagree. I don't speak for the whole community, but I believe some will agree with me, just as I believe some will disagree. Also, please try not to read this as a rant, but instead an extended explanation.

 

-----

 

Where to start...

 

This isn't about the mechanical results of flirting. It's not about a chance to see a couple of digital girls or guys snogging for a couple of seconds. It's not about softcore in-game sex scenes that don't actually exist. The relationship scenes in TOR are quite mild indeed (as befits an MMO, really).

 

This is about identity, and the acceptance thereof.

 

Currently, as TOR stands, there is full facility for heterosexual relationship options. They're so much a part of the game that most people just don't think about them. You're in a conversation, you see a [Flirt] tag, you go with it or you don't - sometimes for RP purposes, sometimes just for giggles. It's a pretty smooth thing for the most part, too. it's not as organic as real life, of course, but no game is going to be.

 

The smooth and easy way of flirting in TOR is, however, glaringly only heterosexual. By contrast there are no bisexual or homosexual flirt opportunities in the game at all. In a game that has specifically provided for romantic methods of self-expression it's painfully obvious that only heterosexuals are catered for.

 

If someone wants to play a homosexual or bisexual character, however, there is zero facility for it. It's like we need to ask permission to be allowed to play such a character, and have been denied that permission.

 

Now, when you put mechanical functions aside (FTB scenes, snogging animations and the like), the very fact that the game completely blocks a non-heterosexual character from gaining functionality in this manner is hurtful. It seems to state, irrespective of actual intention*, that such relationships are either invalid or unwanted.

 

Any female gamer who's been through the tough road to getting accepted as a skilled gamer, who's tried to find games that seem to welcome females as much as males, who's tried to ignore the inconsistencies that have naturally cropped up in such a male-driven industry, will be able to confirm that the feeling of exclusion can sap at the enjoyment of a game purely for reasons of feeling excluded. Mechanical benefits may or may not be relevant to that.

 

Non-heterosexual gamers encounter the same thing and Bioware has gone to pains in the past to try and counter that - to varying degrees and varying levels of success, true, but they've done more for the LGBT gamer crowd than most other gaming companies. To log into TOR and find that sense of inclusion completely absent, particularly when they're so very good at making very compelling characters that we really want to like (or hate), is jarring to say the least.

 

In short, this is about recognition as much as anything. Everyone wants to feel welcome in a new game, everyone wants to feel as if they're not viewed by the developers, the other players and the very game itself as if they're something to be ignored or hidden. And while I'm not saying that was the developer's intentions it does nonetheless feel that way.

 

No matter what was intended by the developers, that thing that people can do, flirting with whom they want to, just can't happen for us. Worse, we were told they intend to put it in and now won't say a thing. That they intend to put it in is good, but our enthusiasm for that choice has been met with stony silence.

 

Over time that enthusiasm has been changing to confusion and then frustration. That'll happen when you say 'You know that thing you really want, we're going to put it in but we're not going to talk to you about it.' I've been advising people keep their spirits up but that's getting harder and harder to do.

 

So yes, it might only be a few scattered scenes you don't find appealing or interesting, but at least you have the choice to pursue them or not. We don't have the choice to pursue the relationships we want to.

 

 

* = I'll be clear on my view: I don't think Bioware Austin has consciously rejected non-heterosexual relationships. I believe there's a reason for same sex relationships being left out, probably several reasons, and that bigotry on BW:A's behalf isn't part of those reasons. But unless the developers comment I can only assume I'm right.

 

-----

 

 

 

When people come into this thread, and others, and proclaim that X issue is far more important than SGRAs could ever be, your statement becomes very ironic indeed.

 

Indeed nice post.

[Kioma]

Indeed nice post.

 

Heh, thanks. But it'll probably get wiped again. Perhaps it's too political, I'm not sure. I haven't had any mod feedback about it.

[Nozybidaj]

Heh, thanks. But it'll probably get wiped again. Perhaps it's too political, I'm not sure. I haven't had any mod feedback about it.

 

Sad thing is that we even have to justify why we want this content. Its ridiculous honestly. Only slightly less ridiculous than this content not being available from day 1. Luckily I think my game time runs out today and I won't feel compelled to post anymore, all this bickering has completely turned me off the game.

 

For being a part of the main pillar of BW's game, leaving that pillar broken for a significant portion of their player base for so long is rather sad on one hand and a touch infuriating on the other.

 

I could have seen myself really enjoying this game if not for the complete mishandling of this issue, from the decisions that led to its exclusion (whatever they are), to the "there are no gays in SW" bs, to the total silence given to the community for months on end, to finally the complete lack of results in backing up their words.

 

I'm overall really just disappointed in a BW, a company that in the past had a decent track record for their inclusiveness.

[Uluain]

I'm overall really just disappointed in a BW, a company that in the past had a decent track record for their inclusiveness.

This is where I am, really. I am hoping a good guild can make up in enjoyment factor what is lost due to being continually confronted by content which so starkly underlines this exclusion.

 

And it is exclusion. Regardless of what has been promised and may at some point be delivered, a decision was made that opposite-gender content is integral to the game, to the extent of enjoying showcase status over recent weeks, while same-gender content is handled differently, and in a manner that plainly places it as second-class.

 

Nothing done now can repair that. It's been decided, and acted upon, and it is how things are.

 

How BioWare Austin chooses to move forward is, naturally, their call. They began with a mis-step. Their unwillingness to address this content in the present tense, not to prospective future customers but current paying ones is not exactly moving things in a positive direction.

 

I want to like this game. I want to be supportive of it. This is making it difficult.

 

Meanwhile, I do not know if it is more disheartening that we have to continually defend this issue against those misrepresenting us, or that when we do the explanations are swept away. That does keep a lid on conflict, but I think it is also hindering understanding. I may need some time away from the forums. This is wearing me down.

[MajikMyst]

That's one question. The bigger question is how.

 

Thanks for the links..

 

Please understand that my post was mostly speculation.. I have just as much information as the next person.. Which isn't much and next to none..

 

As for the how?? I couldn't even begin to speculate to that.. Other than too point to the quote at the begining of this thread in which says that new companions will have new romance options..

 

Does that mean they aren't going to change or alter the existing ones?? No clue.. But the implication is clearly there..

 

I suspect that we aren't going to see any new companions until the level cap is increased.. Which means an expansion as to the when.. Again that is speculation..

 

While I understand that your post was about your feelings.. The issue itself to many others is not.. For Bioware, feelings have nothing to do with it.. It is morally the right thing to do to add them.. But it is a sticky issue that a lot of people have some very strong opinions about.. So it must be handled with care.. That is only way to do it..

 

It is also worth mentioning that you are arguing emotions about something that most people don't see as emotional.. To me it is flirting with pixels on a computer screen in a video game.. It is of no meaning to me on an emotional level.. That doesn't mean that I don't think it shouldn't be added.. It means that I do see it as an issue of emotional value.. That is not an issue of right or wrong.. Neither of us are right or wrong.. It is how we feel about the topic..

 

As for Bioware?? They don't owe us any updates or further information beyond a thumbs up or thumbs down as to it being added.. We know that it will be as they have said as much.. Again, see post at start of this thread.. Beyond that, they should give any new information as it becomes available.. Nothing more and nothing less.. That includes the how as well.. Because at this point.. I don't think the how, is a done deal yet either.. I am not sure they have all the details together.. They are probably still working out some things.. Probably have some story lines being written and so forth.. Not to mention other details that we may not think.. Is this new companion going to be a redneck like Corso, or totally full of himself and his looks like Doc is?? Every companion has a personality.. Well.. So will the new ones..

 

This is to another poster..

 

Nobody has to justify the adding of this feature to the video game.. It should be added because it is the right thing to do.. But their does need to be some acceptance of the nature of this issue and that it is contraversal.. Bioware has to juggle all this and be sensative to everyone who is concerned.. Which is all players of this game, EA, Lucas Arts, and other such groups that may want to have something to say..

 

So Bioware may not have the answers that some here seek.. We all are just going to have to understand that and be patient.. We aren't talking about adding some new feature for PVP or a new lightsaber.. I am sure you all watch the news.. This is a hot issue and it is an election year.. When you are a company like Bioware.. You have to watch every word because it might end up in some magazine somewhere.. Well.. They are being careful and they should be..

 

Edit: Yes your post was wiped.. Very unfortunate.. I am glad someone managed to quote it again..

Edited February 27, 2012 by MajikMyst

[Kioma]

I suspect that we aren't going to see any new companions until the level cap is increased.. Which means an expansion as to the when.. Again that is speculation..

 

I'm sure we're not. The work needed to add more content to the game must be enormous. That's why I hope they alter the existing companions and don't just leave the whole ting for the first expansion.

 

It is also worth mentioning that you are arguing emotions about something that most people don't see as emotional..

 

Ah, no. Let's be clear: I wasn't arguing anything. I was putting forth my opinion on a specific matter in order to make my position more clear. 'Arguing' implies I was trying to change others' opinions and that's not the case. I just felt that mutual understanding would grow if I explained myself somewhat.

 

As for Bioware?? They don't owe us any updates or further information beyond a thumbs up or thumbs down as to it being added..

 

See, I've been saying for a little while now that they don't owe us updates per se because they never promised to give them. I fully agree there.

 

However...

 

There are far, far too many reasons why giving us an update - or even just openly acknowledging our concerns - would be of enormous benefit. For example if we know they definitely are going to change the existing companions we can suggest how. If they definitely are not then we can leave that topic and move on to discussing what kind of new companions we'd like to see. If they are including it in a free content patch then we know it'll presumably be coming before the first expansion; if they definitely aren't then we know we have a long while to wait.

 

Those are just two examples, but you can see how a bit of information would make a huge difference to our discussion. Heck, if they said 'We are most definitely including a same sex toggle' then, as much as I dislike the idea, we could get on with accepting it and the mods could help us keep the topic out of the threads because the mater's already decided (in the same sense that 'if' is kept out; the mods will delete posts claiming that same sex content should not be included because it's already established that it's coming).

 

No, I don't think they owe us, but I still think we should get one. Not because we're owed but because we can't effectively suggest anything if we don't know what they're planning or, at least, what they've definitely cut out.

 

I am not sure they have all the details together.. They are probably still working out some things..

 

I'm sure. I'm willing to bet one of the main reasons they're stalling is because the team dealing with it can't agree on the best way to do things. But again without an update it's all baseless speculation, and I don't like speculating wildly on things I know little to nothing about.

[MajikMyst]

Juhani in kotor1 and a pair of mandalorians in the Karen Traviss expanded universe stuff. It hs happened in the past.

 

And saying romance is a side thing in star wars is silly. I know we all want to forget attack of the clones but it is canon regardless.

 

Ok.. Let me qualify.. I grew up with the original movies.. I was 9 years old when I first saw Star Wars on May 25, 1977.. The closest we got to romance in the original 3 movies was Han Solo screaming 'You can use a good kiss!' inside Echo base on Hoth.. 'Scruffy looking Nerf herder' was a close 2nd of most romantic lines of Star Wars trilogy..

 

The new movies were much different.. Romance had to be a factor in the movies as it directly shows why Jedi shouldn't have attatchments.. Anakin fell to the dark side out his desire to protect Padme.. Of course the loss of his mother didn't help either..

 

Romance really only plays a vital role in the EP. 2 & 3.. There is no romance in Ep. 1.. Padme cleaning R2-D2 doesn't count..

 

For ep. 4-6, it was a side thing.. It was there and it wasn't there.. There was just not a lot of mush in Star Wars.. It was more implied than anything else..

 

Oddly enough.. I never liked the middle acts in the trilogies.. I didn't like Empire that much, nor did I like Attack of the Clones..

Edited February 27, 2012 by MajikMyst

[Uluain]

I suspect that we aren't going to see any new companions until the level cap is increased.. Which means an expansion as to the when.. Again that is speculation...

And if they think I'm going to spend more money for a chance to experience an aspect of the game in a year or two that others are experiencing now, they are mistaken.

 

Hell, I would resent paying credits in-game to unlock same-gender content.

 

If that's the way they choose to go with this content, then it's too bad, but they'll be doing it without me.