People who ninja for their companions

[ferroz]

You won't get anywhere. Stop trying with these two. After 100+ pages they have their opinion and will keep parroting the same thing regardless.

 

Parroting certainly isn't the right word; that would only be true if he were copying someone's arguments without understanding them. He's not doing that.

 

An example of parroting would be the constant litany of "well by that logic everyone will roll need on everything, because everyone has a companion of every type" ... people keep repeating this without thinking about it, since

1. the premise is bad (noone has a companion of every type, though a few do come close, and some classes only have a single companion type)
   
2. it misses the point of the folks that you're arguing against, since they're not really saying anything more than the fact that whether something is a "need" is and should be a personal evaluation, and that applying your own preferences as more important than theirs is absurd.
   

[Irusan]

Parroting certainly isn't the right word; that would only be true if he were copying someone's arguments without understanding them. He's not doing that.

 

An example of parroting would be the constant litany of "well by that logic everyone will roll need on everything, because everyone has a companion of every type" ... people keep repeating this without thinking about it, since

1. the premise is bad (noone has a companion of every type, though a few do come close, and some classes only have a single companion type)
   
2. it misses the point of the folks that you're arguing against, since they're not really saying anything more than the fact that whether something is a "need" is and should be a personal evaluation, and that applying your own preferences as more important than theirs is absurd.
   

 

I would say parroting is exactly the right word. The only thing he got wrong was its more like 400+ pages.

[Setanian]

 

Setanian, however, is debating an entirely separate topic. He's debating against NBG in general. Has nothing to do companions. He thinks it's perfectly acceptable etiquette to roll need on every single item that drops, ever, and if you don't it's your loss. Setanian, I'm not saying that in judgment; just trying to get a clear picture. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

 

Have I got your two positions correctly? Just want to make sure I'm not creating an accidental straw man and debating a stance you don't actually have.

 

No, that's incorrect.

 

I have never, ever, said I roll need on everything. I said I roll need on items I need.

 

If it is agreed by all members that the NBG rule be the norm for the run, and I feel I can trust the players, I'm perfectly happy to run with that.

 

Leaving NBG aside now. The constant argument here has been that the companion did not help, there-fore you cannot loot for it.

 

This is just incorrect. The facts as I see them are this;

 

Each players gets a roll of the dice. *IF* I need an item I roll need.

 

What people here are saying is that they should be allowed to influence my roll, based on their ideas of what I am going to do with the item I won, if I win

 

The fact is, once the item is won, it is nobody's business what I do with the item. I can give the item to my companion, my friend my Mom, my dog or the vendor.

 

I hope that clarifies

[ferroz]

I would say parroting is exactly the right word. The only thing he got wrong was its more like 400+ pages.

So, who is he copying? That's a pre-requisite for his arguments to be "parroting"

 

he also seems to understand his arguments fairly well..

 

So to me, it looks like "parroting" fails on both of it's main criteria.

Edited February 22, 2012 by ferroz

[Rabenschwinge]

your logic or lack there of is not only twisted, but humorous too:D

 

His logic is undeniable and correct actually. A person who is unwilling to share the chance of acquiring a given item with another and accept the result whatever it may be is more greedy than someone who is willing to do so.

[Vecke]

No, that's incorrect.

 

I have never, ever, said I roll need on everything. I said I roll need on items I need.

 

If it is agreed by all members that the NBG rule be the norm for the run, and I feel I can trust the players, I'm perfectly happy to run with that.

 

Leaving NBG aside now. The constant argument here has been that the companion did not help, there-fore you cannot loot for it.

 

This is just incorrect. The facts as I see them are this;

 

Each players gets a roll of the dice. *IF* I need an item I roll need.

 

What people here are saying is that they should be allowed to influence my roll, based on their ideas of what I am going to do with the item I won, if I win

 

The fact is, once the item is won, it is nobody's business what I do with the item. I can give the item to my companion, my friend my Mom, my dog or the vendor.

 

I hope that clarifies

 

Just for clarity's sake here... let's say no rules were laid out at the onset of the group (BIG mistake). You're playing a smuggler, someone else is playing a Jedi. A very rare and potentially expensive lightsaber drops. Neither your smuggler nor any of his companions can use the lightsaber, but the credits you'd make from selling the lightsaber could get Corso Riggs that new chest piece he's been needing.

 

The Jedi says nothing but "Woot. That's better than what I have." He says nothing else. He rolls need.

 

Do you think it is or is not okay for you to roll need at that point?

[Setanian]

Just for clarity's sake here... let's say no rules were laid out at the onset of the group (BIG mistake). You're playing a smuggler, someone else is playing a Jedi. A very rare and potentially expensive lightsaber drops. Neither your smuggler nor any of his companions can use the lightsaber, but the credits you'd make from selling the lightsaber could get Corso Riggs that new chest piece he's been needing.

 

The Jedi says nothing but "Woot. That's better than what I have." He says nothing else. He rolls need.

 

Do you think it is or is not okay for you to roll need at that point?

 

I think it would be incinerate of me to roll 'need' as I always have. How-ever, I do still claim I have the right to roll whatever I wish, and not be told by some whipper snapper

[universeman]

Looks like the same two people still can't get it in their heads that all we are saying is that there is an "unspoken code" (being spoken here) that goes with grouping and rolling on items. I'll even give it a name and call it respect. It's apparently something they know nothing about. They just want to roll on whatever they want. Amazing that they will find a group of people to help them win these items and then do whatever they can to win it (sometimes just to sell it), even when someone else would be much better off with it.

 

It's called zero respect. And that's ok if those are the rules you live by. More power to you.

 

Just don't group with me, because I'll drop you from the group just short of the boss dying and say oops...looks like you don't get to roll. My bad lol...but hey, if I'm group leader, I get to do what I want with my group, right? I pay $15/mo to play the way I want

 

Thanks for helping me kill the boss, though. You were awesome

[Vecke]

I think it would be incinerate of me to roll 'need' as I always have. How-ever, I do still claim I have the right to roll whatever I wish, and not be told by some whipper snapper

 

You definitely have the right. There's no game mechanic that's stopping you. I think that's where the "greed" camp is going wrong. They think this is a hard rule; it's not.

 

But if you rolled need, do you think it would be a fair judgment for them to think you're an inconsiderate jerk and never group with you again?

 

I understand you don't care if they never group with you again. I'm just asking if you agree with them that it would be a jerk-ish thing to do.

[ferroz]

Looks like the same two people still can't get it in their heads that all we are saying is that there is an "unspoken code" (being spoken here) that goes with grouping and rolling on items.

You have an unspoken code that you adhere to... yet you cannot support why it's right.

 

you're great at asserting that it's true. Not so good at actually defending it in any way.

 

I'll even give it a name and call it respect.

No, I respect people to determine what they need, and respect their choices even if I don't agree with them.

 

You on the other hand,

• don't respect other people's play styles
  
• don't respect other people's priorities for loot
  
• don't respect other people's choices.
  

 

Clearly you're the person who doesn't understand respect, and has no respect for his fellow players.

 

Just don't group with me, because I'll drop you from the group just short of the boss dying and say oops...looks like you don't get to roll. My bad lol...but hey, if I'm group leader, I get to do what I want with my group, right? I pay $15/mo to play the way I want

That sort of griefing is a petitionable offense in several MMOs.

 

I find it rather laughable that you talk about respect, and then show how little respect you have for other players...

[Irusan]

No, that's incorrect.

 

I have never, ever, said I roll need on everything. I said I roll need on items I need.

 

If it is agreed by all members that the NBG rule be the norm for the run, and I feel I can trust the players, I'm perfectly happy to run with that.

 

Leaving NBG aside now. The constant argument here has been that the companion did not help, there-fore you cannot loot for it.

 

This is just incorrect. The facts as I see them are this;

 

Each players gets a roll of the dice. *IF* I need an item I roll need.

 

What people here are saying is that they should be allowed to influence my roll, based on their ideas of what I am going to do with the item I won, if I win

 

The fact is, once the item is won, it is nobody's business what I do with the item. I can give the item to my companion, my friend my Mom, my dog or the vendor.

 

 

I hope that clarifies

 

So you define "need" as any reason at all. Credits, companion, friend, dog, mother. So what part of "everything" does this not cover?

[ferroz]

So you define "need" as any reason at all. Credits, companion, friend, dog, mother. So what part of "everything" does this not cover?

Need = the person in question makes a personal evaluation as to whether he needs it.

[Vydor_HC]

I think you mis-read, the part where 'probably' does not mean 'will' and, he is only 'getting it into the works'..

 

'when this gets implemented' and a big 'if'..

 

That is what I garnered from that dev post. It sounds like this is something they haven't even discussed as an issue for the development team if he has to work try and get it in the works. If it does happen, it clearly won't be any time soon.

[ThiborF]

Looks like the same two people still can't get it in their heads that all we are saying is that there is an "unspoken code" (being spoken here) that goes with grouping and rolling on items. I'll even give it a name and call it respect. It's apparently something they know nothing about. They just want to roll on whatever they want. Amazing that they will find a group of people to help them win these items and then do whatever they can to win it (sometimes just to sell it), even when someone else would be much better off with it.

 

It's called zero respect. And that's ok if those are the rules you live by. More power to you.

 

Just don't group with me, because I'll drop you from the group just short of the boss dying and say oops...looks like you don't get to roll. My bad lol...but hey, if I'm group leader, I get to do what I want with my group, right? I pay $15/mo to play the way I want

 

Thanks for helping me kill the boss, though. You were awesome

 

And you're not respecting their time put in to get the kill just as you did.

You're trying to skew the percentages so you have a better chance of getting that piece of gear you covet by telling someone else they can't roll on it.

 

This unspoken code ...

Has there been a MMO where companions existed to the extent they do in TOR?

Does everyone read these forums?

Has every TOR subscriber played a MMO before this one?

 

Or do you simply belong to The Telepathics guild where everyone knows what everyone else is thinking?

 

It's not that I don't see your side of the argument. I do.

But I also see the other side of the coin and think that it's valid as well.

 

Meaning simply there are differing views and instead of you (general "you" who are thumping their chest claiming their way is the right/fair/just way) trying to cram your opinion down everyone's throat as the way the game is played, that it is far better to have a simple discussion when the group forms and eliminate any doubt or confusion.

 

But you can't do that can you?

You cannot conceive that someone with an opinion counter to your own has a valid reason for it.

You cannot bring yourself to use that in-game tool known as the chat window ever so briefly to see if everyone is on the same page when the group forms?

 

You would much rather go on insisting YOUR OPINION is right and then when someone acts counter to it, without your opinion being previously stated to the group, you feel completely justified in tearing down that person and ostracize them.

 

There is no "right" side to this debate.

The only thing that is right is what that group of 4, 8 or 16 decide in this game at that moment collectively works for them.

[Vecke]

Just for clarity's sake here... let's say no rules were laid out at the onset of the group (BIG mistake). You're playing a smuggler, someone else is playing a Jedi. A very rare and potentially expensive lightsaber drops. Neither your smuggler nor any of his companions can use the lightsaber, but the credits you'd make from selling the lightsaber could get Corso Riggs that new chest piece he's been needing.

 

The Jedi says nothing but "Woot. That's better than what I have." He says nothing else. He rolls need.

 

Do you think it is or is not okay for you to roll need at that point?

 

I think it would be incinerate of me to roll 'need' as I always have. How-ever, I do still claim I have the right to roll whatever I wish, and not be told by some whipper snapper

 

You definitely have the right. There's no game mechanic that's stopping you. I think that's where the "greed" camp is going wrong. They think this is a hard rule; it's not.

 

But if you rolled need, do you think it would be a fair judgment for them to think you're an inconsiderate jerk and never group with you again?

 

I understand you don't care if they never group with you again. I'm just asking if you agree with them that it would be a jerk-ish thing to do.

 

For the record, I'm not setting up some kind of gotcha trap here. I know it looks like I am, but I'm not. I'm actually just working toward the point that most people on this thread - not all, but most - are more or less in agreement. But because this is a forum debate, we use inflammatory extremist language that then causes our opponent to use inflammatory extremist language.

 

I think most people would agree that this isn't a hard rule and nobody HAS to abide by anything. But in the example above, I think most people (not all, of course) would think that if the smuggler rolls need, that's a jerk thing to do. I think that's really what everyone's getting at, and I think (but could be wrong) that very few people would disagree it's a jerk thing to do. Do they have the right to do it? Sure. But it's still kind of jerk-ish.

[ThiborF]

For the record, I'm not setting up some kind of gotcha trap here. I know it looks like I am, but I'm not. I'm actually just working toward the point that most people on this thread - not all, but most - are more or less in agreement. But because this is a forum debate, we use inflammatory extremist language that then causes our opponent to use inflammatory extremist language.

 

I think most people would agree that this isn't a hard rule and nobody HAS to abide by anything. But in the example above, I think most people (not all, of course) would think that if the smuggler rolls need, that's a jerk thing to do. I think that's really what everyone's getting at, and I think (but could be wrong) that very few people would disagree it's a jerk thing to do. Do they have the right to do it? Sure. But it's still kind of jerk-ish.

 

And I would think that if you exhibit a behavior that is natural for you and suddenly some of those around you start hating on you for it, without nobody stating prior that the behavior wasn't appropriate, that those haters are being jerks.

 

Talk it up before the run starts and this becomes a non-issue. It's really that simple.

[CozierZebra]

If you don't specify your loot rules and get everyone to agree to them beforehand you really don't have any case. There's nothing saying people can't roll need for their companions unless you mention it when the group or op is formed.

 

If someone is forming a group or op and decides it is okay for everyone to need for their companions you have the option to not go. No one is forcing you into it.

[universeman]

You on the other hand,

• don't respect other people's play styles
  
• don't respect other people's priorities for loot
  
• don't respect other people's choices.
  

 

Clearly you're the person who doesn't understand respect, and has no respect for his fellow players.

 

The only thing I don't respect is those who don't respect others. There are a few people in the game (you seem to be one of them) who are playing the game for themselves only. This is where it starts. You are not caring what other people do or how they play (you said it yourself)...

 

So, to claim I am the one who is not respecting other play styles is completely wrong, since the only reason I'm here explaining the situation is because you don't seem to be respecting others play styles.

 

Like I said, you can click whatever you want. But, some of us do respect others choices and that is why we don't use that NEED button the way you seem to.

 

Simple as that

[Vecke]

And I would think that if you exhibit a behavior that is natural for you and suddenly some of those around you start hating on you for it, without nobody stating prior that the behavior wasn't appropriate, that those haters are being jerks.

 

Talk it up before the run starts and this becomes a non-issue. It's really that simple.

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But sometimes people forget to establish the rules. We're only human, after all. My question to you is, if everyone forgot to establish the rules beforehand (I agree, a dumb move), do you think it's perfectly fine for the smuggler to roll need in my specific example? I'm not asking if it's allowed. I'm saying, purely from a respect and etiquette perspective, do you think there's absolutely nothing wrong with rolling need on that lightsaber if you KNOW for an absolute fact that the jedi needs it for a direct upgrade.

[universeman]

And you're not respecting their time put in to get the kill just as you did.

You're trying to skew the percentages so you have a better chance of getting that piece of gear you covet by telling someone else they can't roll on it.

 

Ummm...the whole point of my argument is that each player should have equal right to an item (this is the same thing we're all fighting for). The difference is, some of us do it with respect. Others don't.

 

That is all.

[Irusan]

For the record, I'm not setting up some kind of gotcha trap here. I know it looks like I am, but I'm not. I'm actually just working toward the point that most people on this thread - not all, but most - are more or less in agreement. But because this is a forum debate, we use inflammatory extremist language that then causes our opponent to use inflammatory extremist language.

 

I think most people would agree that this isn't a hard rule and nobody HAS to abide by anything. But in the example above, I think most people (not all, of course) would think that if the smuggler rolls need, that's a jerk thing to do. I think that's really what everyone's getting at, and I think (but could be wrong) that very few people would disagree it's a jerk thing to do. Do they have the right to do it? Sure. But it's still kind of jerk-ish.

 

Very awesome gotcha trap man. You have finally reached the crux of the argument. But not only do they want the right to do it acknowledged, but also they want it to be accepted as the totally fair, just, and awesome way. In other words, I want to be a jerk but I don't want anyone to think I'm a jerk.

[Galbatorrix]

That is what I garnered from that dev post. It sounds like this is something they haven't even discussed as an issue for the development team if he has to work try and get it in the works. If it does happen, it clearly won't be any time soon.

 

 

BTW, The guy who said that is the "Principal Lead Systems Designer". So stop with the "what he said doesn't mean much" stuff, ok? They're fixing it because they disagree with your way of thinking on this subject. So again, who's playing the game the way they intend it? You guys or us?

[Setanian]

Looks like the same two people still can't get it in their heads that all we are saying is that there is an "unspoken code" (being spoken here) that goes with grouping and rolling on items. I'll even give it a name and call it respect. It's apparently something they know nothing about. They just want to roll on whatever they want. Amazing that they will find a group of people to help them win these items and then do whatever they can to win it (sometimes just to sell it), even when someone else would be much better off with it.

 

It's called zero respect. And that's ok if those are the rules you live by. More power to you.

 

Just don't group with me, because I'll drop you from the group just short of the boss dying and say oops...looks like you don't get to roll. My bad lol...but hey, if I'm group leader, I get to do what I want with my group, right? I pay $15/mo to play the way I want

 

Thanks for helping me kill the boss, though. You were awesome

 

And this is why I say don't trust anyone.

[Vecke]

Very awesome gotcha trap man. You have finally reached the crux of the argument. But not only do they want the right to do it acknowledged, but also they want it to be accepted as the totally fair, just, and awesome way. In other words, I want to be a jerk but I don't want anyone to think I'm a jerk.

 

I didn't intend it to be a gotcha. I don't think the people on the need camp want to be jerks. Most are just debating this because it's fun to rile up forum posters or because they feel like they're getting attacked for having a different perspective on NBG, so it becomes a debate of unlikely scenarios and extremes, from both sides.

 

I could be wrong, but I think in the example I gave, most people would agree that the nice thing to do would be for the smuggler to roll greed. I'm not talking about hard rules or what has to be done or imposing any view on anything else. I just think that, in-game, most of the people debating both sides of this debate would roll greed. I've never met a person in-game that has rolled need in a situation like that.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Vecke

[Setanian]

Ummm...the whole point of my argument is that each player should have equal right to an item (this is the same thing we're all fighting for). The difference is, some of us do it with respect. Others don't.

 

That is all.

 

Each player does have equal right! They each get to roll. Which part are you disagreeing with ?