People who ninja for their companions

[ferroz]

The issue here is that the NEED button *FORCES* anyone who hasn't also clicked NEED to PASS and completely eliminates their "chances" of getting the item.

No, they weren't forced to do anything. They chose to pick greed because they didn't actually want the item enough to pick need.

 

There's no forcing involved.

 

This makes the GREED button useless and completely eliminates the usefulness of the system.

No, it still has exactly the same use that I use it for today: anything that I don't actually want except for selling to a vendor or on the gtn.

[ferroz]

As a healer, my response to this would be "okay, than I guess it should be fine for me to let you die in the battle, finish the boss with the rest of the group, and while you are rezzing, loot the boss so you don't get a chance at the loot." That seems just as "fair" to me as the tank needing on a piece of healer gear that upgrades me simply because it would help his companion.

that seems pretty irrational to me.

 

Hopefully you can do the boss without the tank, eh?

 

I was more instrumental to beating that boss than his companion that was not part of the fight, thus I "deserve" the item more than his companion "deserves" the item.

So? you weren't more instrumental to beating that boss than the other player that was part of the fight, thus you don't deserve that item any more than they do.

 

 

All's fair in love and war? Seems to be your stance, I disagree.

No, it's more like "everyone has exactly the same chance to win the loot, which is inherently more fair than biasing the rules in any way"

[ferroz]

Read the weekly Q&A updates from BW. last week they said that come 1.2 or 1.3 then you will only see the Need option if the gear matches your class, therefore you will not have the option to do grab it for your companion unless you require the same statistics.

the quote i saw said that it's not in the next major release (1.2) and isn't know when it will be.

[fainthftk]

A Companion is no different than needing for offspec in WOW. Most healers don't play as a heal spec while soloing. They dual spec into heals for dungeons and DPS for soloing. Companions are really no different. There's nothing new here. And needing for offspec in that game gets you booted from groups more often than not.

 

.

 

This 'offspec' stuff is also awkward to me since my sole purpose to actualy DO the loot runs is to grab llot for the specific thing i want to accomplish. So if i wantet loot for my so called mainspec i would need for that , if i need stuff for my 'offspec' i would need on that.

 

One reason i hate Raids in general because the established 'rules' are much like ongoing politics. And everyone knows how that is...

[Galbatorrix]

No, they weren't forced to do anything. They chose to pick greed because they didn't actually want the item enough to pick need.

 

There's no forcing involved.

 

No, it still has exactly the same use that I use it for today: anything that I don't actually want except for selling to a vendor or on the gtn.

 

 

 

People that play like me select greed or pass when we technically DO need something for a companion. If I'm playing my gunslinger and a nice AIM helm drops for Corso, I will hit greed if there is a trooper in the group who needs it. Which I think is why our side is so passionate about this. We're the one's that end up getting the short end of the stick because in our minds, we're trying to be decent. It's not like we're only passing on items that we'd otherwise simply greed. We're passing on companion upgrades so our group mates can gear up too. So, when we do need something for our class and lose it to a companion roll, of course we're going to be upset and feel slighted.

 

 

You guys act like we're passing on stuff we don't need just so we can "stack the deck" on stuff we do. That simply isn't the case.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Galbatorrix

[Malpracticex]

If you were using the system with consideration of others, then you are forgoing your chance at the loot. You are also stating, I don't want this loot, someone with a better need than me can have it.

 

That's fine. But you cannot after doing that start to describe to players what your idea of 'better need than I" is and get all thick and start kicking them from the group.

 

If you want to play that way, tell them at the start. "If I don't need something and pass, you can roll need, if you pass this list of criteria. A... b... c... d... "

 

Since you unsubscribed and threw the game in the garbage, I dont think you have anything to worry about. Much less tell someone how to roll and play the game.

[Magnijung]

The problem is that over the years, none of the games you played had something like companions.

 

You say "roll blindy on companion gear when someone needs to it for their class" as if those were two different things. They are not. The companion IS the class. Companion abilities are a subset of player abilities he can swap on the fly. The "companion" is just pretty graphics that go with those abilities.

 

And it goes back to my main questions on the 1st page.

 

1. Companion is not contributing to the run in most cases.

2. When you are appropriately geared, companions do not hold same weight.

3. If you wish to upgrade gear on your companion using drops from grouped instances, everyone would need to roll Need on every single piece of gear. So basically we do not need 2 buttons anymore. We need 1. "Do you need the item?" "Yes/No."

[Irusan]

People that play like me select greed or pass when we technically DO need something for a companion. If I'm playing my gunslinger and a nice AIM helm drops for Corso, I will hit greed if there is a trooper in the group who needs it. Which I think is why our side is so passionate about this. We're the one's that end up getting the short end of the stick because in our minds, we're trying to be decent. It's not like we're only passing on items that we'd otherwise simply greed. We're passing on companion upgrades so our group mates can gear up too. So, when we do need something for our class and lose it to a companion roll, of course we're going to be upset and feel slighted.

 

 

You guys act like we're passing on stuff we don't need just so we can "stack the deck" on stuff we do. That simply isn't the case.

 

Exactly right. What I get from their argument is basically a "Roll" or "Pass" system is fairest. And that may be true, Round Robin also seems fair to me. Fair, but maybe not the brightest way to try and gear anyone up.

[Vecke]

This.

 

Over the years this is the behavior that I have encountered in MMOs. Personally I have no reason to assume that anyone in the group is of mind set that it is okay to roll blindy on companion gear when someone needs to it for their class.

 

Off spec rolling in other games and rolling on gear for companions is more like an anomaly thus it is treated as one.

 

Let me put it in real world perspective. Holding doors. No where does it say that I have to hold a door for anyone. No where does it say that I cannot slam the door the shot when someone is approaching it. But at the end of the day, it is common courtesy to hold the door open and if you slam the door, you will be ostracized. This is so because majority of humans accept this.

 

Same goes for how loot is determined. Everyone who plays know that rolling Need means that you desire that piece of gear to use. Then there are restrictions implemented by the community since if they are not implemented, this system would break apart. Currently it is not as much of an issue when sometimes someone rolls on need on an off chance. Or when the Need roll happens players in the group do not care. But what if it has been social acceptable in MMOs to roll Need on every piece of gear? I know 1 thing, nothing good would come out of it.

 

See, the problem with this, as I see it, isn't about the amount of people that are doing it. At first, your point was exactly the point I was making. But what started changing my mind was the fact that the people rolling need for companions - no matter how much of a minority they are - are making a very good case (IMO) for that roll. I'm not talking about the trolls, but the people that genuinely believe it's appropriate in this game to roll need for a companion.

 

Unlike alt specs or alts in general, a companion is FAR more integrated into your character in this game. It really is a new paradigm. The companion really is a fundamental part of your character. It's not just a cool option or a choice. To a lot of people, it's a required mechanic that was implemented in the basic design of the companion, so much so that an item you bind to your character is also bound to that companion.

 

I'm not saying their stance is right. I'm saying it has merit. And to completely disregard these people as jerks or greedy based on our experiences in games that didn't have companions, is unfair, in my opinion. Maybe it's better to consider their opinion. And it's certainly not appropriate to assume that someone who rolls need for a companion is being a greedy jerk. I submit that is very rarely the case.

 

When I pug, I roll greed for companions. Always. When I play with my wife and our friends, we roll need for companions. Why? Because a companion holds much more weight in this game than a pet or an alt or even an alt spec. You might disagree with that - which is fine - but many people believe that, and they believe it sincerely. That doesn't make them jerks.

 

And furthermore, considering the amount of sales this game has made, I'd say it's a safe assumption that this is a LOT of people's first MMO. To act like the community driven rule of thumb on this is common sense is simply untrue. If you need an item for a companion, and a box pops up with need on it, it's perfectly reasonable to think that the item is something you can roll need on. The community rule is (in my opinion) the less logical rule.

 

Also, just to let you know, I'm sure you'll find posts from me that contradict what I'm saying here. If you want to play a gotcha game (not saying you do, but just letting you know that IF you do), you'll win. That's because I've changed my mind on this one.

 

I think there would be much less drama if everyone asked about the loot rule upon the formation of the group and (if they don't want to do that) accept that rolls might not go in a way they want.

 

Companions have changed the paradigm a bit. It might not have changed it enough to warrant a change in this unwritten community standard... that's up for debate... but it has changed it enough to stop attacking people that roll need for a companion. In this particular game, it's not as clear as you might think.

Edited February 23, 2012 by Vecke

[universeman]

If you were using the system with consideration of others, then you are forgoing your chance at the loot. You are also stating, I don't want this loot, someone with a better need than me can have it.

 

Ok, you should stop right there with the assumptions. I did not state I do not want this loot. I may have clicked GREED, if that's what you're thinking. But, if clicking GREED means I am stating I don't want loot, then you just solidified my point about the system and how you're using it. NEED should not be the only way to "state" I want a chance at getting the item.

 

NEED is not there to be used most of the time. NEED is there when you want to trump your fellow teammates. If you see at any other way, then it really should just be turned into NEED/PASS. Then everyone would simply NEED and only PASS when they don't really care. GREED just seems pointless in your reasoning.

[Kreavus]

Well, I have seen it happening. And as more people hit 50 expect it to happen even more. At times your companions gear means you live where you may have died. BUT I still think priority should still go to your toon over a companion toon. That said, I have a few friends who are running flash points with the soul purpose of gear companions. But in there defense they let the group know that they are planning on rolling need for certain item sets.

[ferroz]

And it goes back to my main questions on the 1st page.

 

1. Companion is not contributing to the run in most cases.

As several folks have point out repeatedly, this is irrelevant: the player is present and contributing in the run, and the player is the one who gets to roll.

2. When you are appropriately geared, companions do not hold same weight.

so?

 

that sounds like "my class scales better with crit so that should go to me even though that's an upgrade for you as well"

 

3. If you wish to upgrade gear on your companion using drops from grouped instances, everyone would need to roll Need on every single piece of gear.

As I've pointed out, this is a false statement. Troopers would only roll on heavy armor with aim and droid gear, as a quick counter example.

 

So basically we do not need 2 buttons anymore. We need 1. "Do you need the item?" "Yes/No."

We have 3 buttons, and all of them would continue to have a purpose. Edited February 23, 2012 by ferroz

[universeman]

We have 3 buttons, and all of them would continue to have a purpose.

 

Why don't you give us the reasons for all three buttons to help us understand why you're fighting to keep them. Maybe this will clear up some of the confusion...

[Galbatorrix]

We have 3 buttons, and all of them would continue to have a purpose.

 

 

If no line is drawn and non consensus reached, why do we need all three? If you're to have your way, they should make each player get an auto roll and the loot goes to the highest roller. What's more fair than that? It would likely be very difficult to gear up and FPs would be all but pointless, but it's way more fair than some people needing for companions while others pass hoping no one will roll on their class loot when it drops.

[Irusan]

See, the problem with this, as I see it, isn't about the amount of people that are doing it. At first, your point was exactly the point I was making. But what started changing my mind was the fact that the people rolling need for companions - no matter how much of a minority they are - are making a very good case (IMO) for that roll. I'm not talking about the trolls, but the people that genuinely believe it's appropriate in this game to roll need for a companion.

 

Unlike alt specs or alts in general, a companion is FAR more integrated into your character in this game. It really is a new paradigm. The companion really is a fundamental part of your character. It's not just a cool option or a choice. To a lot of people, it's a required mechanic that was implemented in the basic design of the companion, so much so that an item you bind to your character is also bound to that companion.

 

I'm not saying their stance is right. I'm saying it has merit. And to completely disregard these people as jerks or greedy based on our experiences in games that didn't have companions, is unfair, in my opinion. Maybe it's better to consider their opinion. And it's certainly not appropriate to assume that someone who rolls need for a companion is being a greedy jerk. I submit that is very rarely the case.

 

When I pug, I roll greed for companions. Always. When I play with my wife and our friends, we roll need for companions. Why? Because a companion holds much more weight in this game than a pet or an alt or even an alt spec. You might disagree with that - which is fine - but many people believe that, and they believe it sincerely. That doesn't make them jerks.

 

And furthermore, considering the amount of sales this game has made, I'd say it's a safe assumption that this is a LOT of people's first MMO. To act like the community driven rule of thumb on this is common sense is simply untrue. If you need an item for a companion, and a box pops up with need on it, it's perfectly reasonable to think that the item is something you can roll need on. The community rule is (in my opinion) the less logical rule.

 

Also, just to let you know, I'm sure you'll find posts from me that contradict what I'm saying here. If you want to play a gotcha game (not saying you do, but just letting you know that IF you do), you'll win. That's because I've changed my mind on this one.

 

I think there would be much less drama if everyone asked about the loot rule upon the formation of the group and (if they don't want to do that) accept that rolls might not go in a way they want.

 

Companions have changed the paradigm a bit. It might not have changed it enough to warrant a change in this unwritten community standard... that's up for debate... but it has changed it enough to stop attacking people that roll need for a companion. In this particular game, it's not as clear as you might think.

 

At 50, I use my companion to do the dailies on Belsavis and Ilum. I can't use it in WZs or Operations. I haven't tried it in any HM FPs, but suspect that even in full Rakata gear it would fall short on the role I needed it to fill. So for me the question is do I roll need for that companion to shave maybe a few minutes off daily quests when an actual player could use that gear as an upgrade for his character? No.

[Atanasov]

Its not being greedy, its a feature.

[ferroz]

Exactly right. What I get from their argument is basically a "Roll" or "Pass" system is fairest."

It's fairer than NBG.

 

I'd say that the fairest is the fractional loot system, where everyone gets tokens off of each boss equally, allowing you to buy whatever it is you want.

 

 

brightest way to try and gear anyone up.

ther's nothing dim about it... maybe you mean "it's not the fastest way to try and gear anyone up" or something like that?

 

I'd say that speedy loot gain isn't an inherently good thing, but I think that's a bit tangential to the discussion at hand.

[universeman]

Troopers would only roll on heavy armor with aim and droid gear, as a quick counter example.

 

Can you also let us know if you think it's fair that Troopers have much fewer opportunities to roll NEED for their companions compared to other classes?

[Atanasov]

Can you also let us know if you think it's fair that Troopers have much fewer opportunities to roll NEED for their companions compared to other classes?

 

The unfairness is a feature.

[Magnijung]

See, the problem with this, as I see it, isn't about the amount of people that are doing it. At first, your point was exactly the point I was making. But what started changing my mind was the fact that the people rolling need for companions - no matter how much of a minority they are - are making a very good case (IMO) for that roll. I'm not talking about the trolls, but the people that genuinely believe it's appropriate in this game to roll need for a companion.

 

Unlike alt specs or alts in general, a companion is FAR more integrated into your character in this game. It really is a new paradigm. The companion really is a fundamental part of your character. It's not just a cool option or a choice. To a lot of people, it's a required mechanic that was implemented in the basic design of the companion, so much so that an item you bind to your character is also bound to that companion.

 

I'm not saying their stance is right. I'm saying it has merit. And to completely disregard these people as jerks or greedy based on our experiences in games that didn't have companions, is unfair, in my opinion. Maybe it's better to consider their opinion. And it's certainly not appropriate to assume that someone who rolls need for a companion is being a greedy jerk. I submit that is very rarely the case.

 

When I pug, I roll greed for companions. Always. When I play with my wife and our friends, we roll need for companions. Why? Because a companion holds much more weight in this game than a pet or an alt or even an alt spec. You might disagree with that - which is fine - but many people believe that, and they believe it sincerely. That doesn't make them jerks.

 

And furthermore, considering the amount of sales this game has made, I'd say it's a safe assumption that this is a LOT of people's first MMO. To act like the community driven rule of thumb on this is common sense is simply untrue. If you need an item for a companion, and a box pops up with need on it, it's perfectly reasonable to think that the item is something you can roll need on. The community rule is (in my opinion) the less logical rule.

 

Also, just to let you know, I'm sure you'll find posts from me that contradict what I'm saying here. If you want to play a gotcha game (not saying you do, but just letting you know that IF you do), you'll win. That's because I've changed my mind on this one.

 

I think there would be much less drama if everyone asked about the loot rule upon the formation of the group and (if they don't want to do that) accept that rolls might not go in a way they want.

 

Companions have changed the paradigm a bit. It might not have changed it enough to warrant a change in this unwritten community standard... that's up for debate... but it has changed it enough to stop attacking people that roll need for a companion. In this particular game, it's not as clear as you might think.

 

Let me be frank, on my Assassin, at level 50 the only thing that I have done with my companions is send them out to gather stuff and to see the their personal story play out. While leveling, my companions did not have a single piece of gear that dropped in a flashpoint. Usually my companion gear was never on par with my assassin or with the content I was doing. Yet, I got to 50 without much trouble.

 

Companions are important but they are not so important that you cannot manage to play the game without them. Furthermore, in flashpoints, in most cases, you do play without them. It is not like you can pull one out with an ability and he would help you heal the group, save the group of tank goes down or dps and help kill stuff faster.

 

Companions are primarily there for your solo play. On Ilum pvp, no companions. In flashpoints, no companions. In ops, no companions. Companions are there to help you to do missions and help you with crew skills. Basically they are there for the purpose of solo play.

 

Personally I do not have a problem with either systems as long as everyone knows which one it is. If we are rolling on gear for our companions, that's fine with me but tell that to your group and do you want to play where everyone will roll need on every single pieces of gear? I mean every one will roll need because there is no way to compare what pieces all your companions are wearing. That is not supported by the UI. I would say this is in anti argument but Bioware doesn't support anything UI department.

[ferroz]

Why don't you give us the reasons for all three buttons to help us understand why you're fighting to keep them. Maybe this will clear up some of the confusion...

1. Do want
   
2. meh, I'll take it
   
3. do not want.
   

 

I'm pretty sure I've posted this a half dozen times in the last week, and that at least a couple of them are in the thread.

[Magnijung]

1. Do want
   
2. meh, I'll take it
   
3. do not want.
   

 

I'm pretty sure I've posted this a half dozen times in the last week, and that at least a couple of them are in the thread.

 

So basically Need should be used by everyone like 95%-100% of the time?

Edited February 23, 2012 by Magnijung

[Galbatorrix]

1. Do want
   
2. meh, I'll take it
   
3. do not want.
   

 

I'm pretty sure I've posted this a half dozen times in the last week, and that at least a couple of them are in the thread.

 

 

Those three options are only fair if everyone plays the way you do. Which is not the case. So, either a consensus has to be made, or Bioware has to police it. Which apparently is what they've decided to do.

[ferroz]

On Ilum pvp, no companions.

I've used companions here.

 

In flashpoints, no companions.

I've run flashpoints with companions.

 

In ops, no companions.

I don't do these, so they're irrelevant to me.

 

Companions are there to help you to do missions and help you with crew skills. Basically they are there for the purpose of solo play.

So is the rest of the gear that I get from flashpoints...I'm not really seeing your point.

 

do you want to play where everyone will roll need on every single pieces of gear?

the prospect of that doesn't frighten me. That's how most of my non-guild groups worked in eq

 

not that that's what we'd see...

 

I mean every one will roll need because there is no way to compare what pieces all your companions are wearing.

eh, some people might; about the same number that need on stuff and say "oops, hit the wrong button" right now. Most people won't though. Edited February 23, 2012 by ferroz

[Yuuj]

People who don't punch people who ninja for their companions in the nose make me sick.