Hybrid Sorcerer/Sage Utility is OP in PvP

[Zoombi]

looking forward to the sage/sorc nerf. waayyy to many of them now. getting worse daily as everyone rolls them. love playing mine but nonsensically op.

[gwrtheyn]

600k+ aoe dmg from a sorc/sage in voidstar is not OP ? (nearly the double of a smash sith)

healing 25k tp bevor 1 of the team gets dmg(3.2kbubble x8)

[Baalazar]

This game is full of ignorant people who cry op the second they die to another class.

 

**** actually learning to play thats for bads. Just nerf the class i lost to.

Edited February 22, 2012 by Baalazar

[Herboss]

This game is full of ignorant people who cry op the second they die to another class.

 

**** actually learning to play thats for bads. Just nerf the class i lost to.

If you don't think this class is OP YOU are the dud who has nfi how to play.

[Ewgal]

There are two many dps/heal hybrids walking around. Bioware could probably fix sorc problem by making some of their lower lightning tree skills less OP and promote deep spec, ie specific class roles

[Onaazz]

Marauder/Sentinel complaining about sorcs, oh the irony... butthurt it's only class you might not be able to kill in 1v1? Edited February 22, 2012 by Onaazz

[Metallistic]

Marauder/Sentinel complaining about sorcs, oh the irony...

Hybrid spec is overpowered and it has to go. Plain and simple.

[GrandMike]

Hybrid spec is overpowered and it has to go. Plain and simple.

 

Just because you say so! Or maybe you just have to L2P.

 

Aint happening, making free kills more free lol

Edited February 22, 2012 by GrandMike

[Shortsleeves]

Hybrid spec is overpowered and it has to go. Plain and simple.

 

Op'd how? A sorc really has no more cc theb your run of the mill pyrotech. Plus the entire offensive capability of the hybrid light/mad builds depends on generating procs from a channeled spell. Honestly they are probably the easiest class to kill for me other then gunnery commandos or ops. Apply ranged dot, close in spamming white damage which almost always procs my snare/additional dot and follow through flame to railshot and lovefist.

 

The only class with a legitimate gripe on sorcs are agent/smug derivatives who are pretty much forced to invest in cybertech atm for defense against kiting.

[Metallistic]

Op'd how? A sorc really has no more cc theb your run of the mill pyrotech. Plus the entire offensive capability of the hybrid light/mad builds depends on generating procs from a channeled spell. Honestly they are probably the easiest class to kill for me other then gunnery commandos or ops. Apply ranged dot, close in spamming white damage which almost always procs my snare/additional dot and follow through flame to railshot and lovefist.

 

The only class with a legitimate gripe on sorcs are agent/smug derivatives who are pretty much forced to invest in cybertech atm for defense against kiting.

Overpowered how? You have a looooooong post explaining in detail with a thorough analysis, backed up with numbers and you ask me how... Seriously? Not to mention that there have been MULTIPLE sorcs/sages coming out of the box and ADMITTING that they feel too powerful at times (specifically with hybrid spec). Edited February 22, 2012 by Metallistic

[Eszi]

I think that OP hybrid sorcs/sages are not the main problem, but a result of one - Resolve being useless.

 

I play melee and no, I don't have problems with sorcs/sages, but they are slightly more annoying to kill due to lots of knockbacks, snares, roots and stuns. Talking about ranged vs melee, a knockback + root is pretty much like a stun, since i can't do anything anyway.

 

THE PROBLEM:

1 CC breaker, 2 minutes CD

Resolve fills up slowly

Roots and snares don't fill up resolve at all

Resolve "depletes" fast after filling (10-15 seconds?)

 

So:

I get stunned 2-3 times, resolve fills up.

Assuming I'm not dead already, I use my CC breaker

OH CHRIST, NOW THE SNARES AND ROOTS

Alright, I managed to kill him

 

ANOTHER WILD SORCERER APPEARS

SORCERER USES KNOCKBACK+ROOT AND WHIRLWIND AFTER THAT - IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE

Here, I might as well go eat a dinner or whatever, since my resolve was already empty and the CC breaker is still on a 1:30 CD.

 

Still, 1 Sorc/Sage isn't a problem, the problem arises when you have 5 of them or even more (srsly, once i played a wz vs a team made only of sorcs), but since like everyone on the empire is a sorcerer and the resolve is broken, the problem persists.

[Tumri]

Just because you say so! Or maybe you just have to L2P.

 

Aint happening, making free kills more free lol

 

Sorcerers free kills?

 

1/10

Edited February 22, 2012 by Tumri

[Szarala]

The main problem is that there's very little incentive to go full lightning/TK or full madness/balance.

 

Make the tops of these trees worthwhile and the CCerors start going away.

[Surgin]

I think that OP hybrid sorcs/sages are not the main problem, but a result of one - Resolve being useless.

 

I play melee and no, I don't have problems with sorcs/sages, but they are slightly more annoying to kill due to lots of knockbacks, snares, roots and stuns. Talking about ranged vs melee, a knockback + root is pretty much like a stun, since i can't do anything anyway.

 

THE PROBLEM:

1 CC breaker, 2 minutes CD

Resolve fills up slowly

Roots and snares don't fill up resolve at all

Resolve "depletes" fast after filling (10-15 seconds?)

 

So:

I get stunned 2-3 times, resolve fills up.

Assuming I'm not dead already, I use my CC breaker

OH CHRIST, NOW THE SNARES AND ROOTS

Alright, I managed to kill him

 

ANOTHER WILD SORCERER APPEARS

SORCERER USES KNOCKBACK+ROOT AND WHIRLWIND AFTER THAT - IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE

Here, I might as well go eat a dinner or whatever, since my resolve was already empty and the CC breaker is still on a 1:30 CD.

 

Still, 1 Sorc/Sage isn't a problem, the problem arises when you have 5 of them or even more (srsly, once i played a wz vs a team made only of sorcs), but since like everyone on the empire is a sorcerer and the resolve is broken, the problem persists.

 

I lol'd

[savionen]

I think that OP hybrid sorcs/sages are not the main problem, but a result of one - Resolve being useless.

 

I play melee and no, I don't have problems with sorcs/sages, but they are slightly more annoying to kill due to lots of knockbacks, snares, roots and stuns. Talking about ranged vs melee, a knockback + root is pretty much like a stun, since i can't do anything anyway.

 

THE PROBLEM:

1 CC breaker, 2 minutes CD

Resolve fills up slowly

Roots and snares don't fill up resolve at all

Resolve "depletes" fast after filling (10-15 seconds?)

 

So:

I get stunned 2-3 times, resolve fills up.

Assuming I'm not dead already, I use my CC breaker

OH CHRIST, NOW THE SNARES AND ROOTS

Alright, I managed to kill him

 

ANOTHER WILD SORCERER APPEARS

SORCERER USES KNOCKBACK+ROOT AND WHIRLWIND AFTER THAT - IT'S SUPER EFFECTIVE

Here, I might as well go eat a dinner or whatever, since my resolve was already empty and the CC breaker is still on a 1:30 CD.

 

Still, 1 Sorc/Sage isn't a problem, the problem arises when you have 5 of them or even more (srsly, once i played a wz vs a team made only of sorcs), but since like everyone on the empire is a sorcerer and the resolve is broken, the problem persists.

 

I agree with this. Half of the issue is that Roots don't increase Resolve. You could be immune to CC, then they use a knockback and root you anyway.

 

And then yeah, fighting against multiple Sage/Sorcs is lol. Miserable game of being slowed for 15 minutes.

[Calista_ZK]

Overpowered how? You have a looooooong post explaining in detail with a thorough analysis, backed up with numbers and you ask me how... Seriously? Not to mention that there have been MULTIPLE sorcs/sages coming out of the box and ADMITTING that they feel too powerful at times (specifically with hybrid spec).

BTW--Using cap lock doesn't validate a poor argument.

 

and there have been MULTIPLE people in MULTIPLE threads pointing out how sorcs/sages can be easily killed, can be interrupted, etc. In addition, there have been sages/sorcs who have actually played to cap in end-game gear (BM) pointing out the weaknesses (yes, they DO exist) in each spec. There is no magic 31/31/31 sorc/sage spec. People just get blinded by wz medals and kills and mistake that for success at 1x1.

[GrandMike]

Sorcerers free kills?

 

1/10

 

Terribads mantra.

[Tumri]

success at 1x1.

 

That's why you don't see how they're overpowered. 1v1 is absolutely pointless and irrelevant. They're overpowered in group PvP.

[GrandMike]

I agree with this. Half of the issue is that Roots don't increase Resolve. You could be immune to CC, then they use a knockback and root you anyway.

 

And then yeah, fighting against multiple Sage/Sorcs is lol. Miserable game of being slowed for 15 minutes.

 

-1 at game knowledge. Only top talent can root full resolve, and then it not a - hybrid.

 

Slowed? Lot of classes have perma slow. Sorc/sage are not one of those classes.

 

snip

 

So, despite all CC you manage to kill teh sorc and proceed to QQ that 2nd sorc killed you after that.

 

Lesson for the day: 5 of anything attacking you is a "problem". Hey, 5 marauders/sentinels an perma root you. NERF!

 

That's why you don't see how they're overpowered. 1v1 is absolutely pointless and irrelevant. They're overpowered in group PvP.

 

Tank/marauder with pocket healer is also OP in group. We should nerf tanks/marauders and healers. Nice logic there:rolleyes:

 

I know about this class, its OP in 1vs1 and even more OP in group. So it would ne only fair that we nerf THAT class first, now wouldnt it?

Edited February 22, 2012 by GrandMike

[athosprv]

at least 40-60% of the time i spend in wz's (rank 51+ SS slinger) half or more of the imp team is composed of inquisitors who are for the most part sorcerers.

 

What bothers me the most is not that they do insane amounts of damage, healing, cc and have a bubble. Its their ability to sprint away at will as soon as they feel that they are losing the fight, LOS, heal and come back to kill you. No one else can do that.

 

Let me give some examples from my experience:

 

Gunslinger/sniper: Hunker down: Immune to cc but if you move it's gone.

Operative: Los+ kolto injection but if you restealth or vanish with dots, stealth will break.

Sentinel: Temporaty invis + defensive cd to take very minimal damage but you are kiteable

 

But the sorc?

 

No matter who is attacking them they can cc/root them, bubble, sprint, LOS, Cleanse dots, Heal, come back and finish you off without breaking a sweat.

 

Last night i focused a sorc, started to give him some punishment, he notices me, sprints LOS, heals. I switch to another sorc who was next to him. He notices me, sprints LOS, heals. I sit right there and think...what gives? These people can also escape groups of enemies anytime without any sort of major cd. If i chase them, by the time i get to them, the sprint is reset.

 

Before you go ahead and say "leg shot", don't forget they have a trinket and their sprint is what, 20 second cd?

 

I don't know their abilities in detail like the OP but the combination of all those is way over the top and the sheer amounts of them in every WZ is quite of a proof for me that something is amiss.

 

In the 50's bracket Sorcs constantly top dps between 300-400k or even more while having 50-100k healing.

 

I don't care what's wrong but it needs fixing.

[goulet]

the issue i have is not anyone ability being the smoking gun to say "oh theres the issue" its a collection of abilities that compound one another to create the issue. If i had to describe it one sentence i guess i would say that they have the ability to do numerous things solo that it takes other classes multiple people to do.

 

taking huttball environmental hazards as an example

-force pulling into hazards: as a juggernaut i can force push people into them, but they have to be the right distance away from it so when i push them they land in the zone. A sorc (and bh's with grapple who don't have sorc dps) just has to stand behind the thing.

 

-negating huttball hazards

all they need to do is put on their shield and they can stroll right through and sprint away from everyone waiting on the trap. They're the only class that can shield through it then pop a sprint afterwards. Warriors/knights can do this with charge but they require an enemy target to jump to.

 

abilities

-its spec specific but who's the brain-trust that put a slow (that will apply on full resolve and constantly apply) on a spammable high damage ability: lightning. Show me one other slow that does more then minimal damage or no damage at all and applies a slow.

 

-pull: the lack of diminishing returns on same faction players is taxing to patience. You can chain pull someone with multiple sorcs (yes this one isn't about just one sorc). by comparison yes a warrior has a gap closer that can be used on friendly targets but it can't be used for the next 20 seconds afterwards.

 

Healing

-they seem to be the only class that if you interrupt a heal they have a 2nd big heal their able to cast. Now by comparison an operative has one big castable heal, and thats it everything else is a hot or requires a tactical advantage to execute, and if they have those they aren't pulling the dps a sorc can.

 

-what other dps/heal ac can spec to have dps based healing and castable heals as well.

[Szarala]

at least 40-60% of the time i spend in wz's (rank 51+ SS slinger) half or more of the imp team is composed of inquisitors who are for the most part sorcerers.

 

What bothers me the most is not that they do insane amounts of damage, healing, cc and have a bubble. Its their ability to sprint away at will as soon as they feel that they are losing the fight, LOS, heal and come back to kill you. No one else can do that.

 

Let me give some examples from my experience:

 

Gunslinger/sniper: Hunker down: Immune to cc but if you move it's gone.

Operative: Los+ kolto injection but if you restealth or vanish with dots, stealth will break.

Sentinel: Temporaty invis + defensive cd to take very minimal damage but you are kiteable

 

But the sorc?

 

No matter who is attacking them they can cc/root them, bubble, sprint, LOS, Cleanse dots, Heal, come back and finish you off without breaking a sweat.

 

Last night i focused a sorc, started to give him some punishment, he notices me, sprints LOS, heals. I switch to another sorc who was next to him. He notices me, sprints LOS, heals. I sit right there and think...what gives? These people can also escape groups of enemies anytime without any sort of major cd. If i chase them, by the time i get to them, the sprint is reset.

 

Before you go ahead and say "leg shot", don't forget they have a trinket and their sprint is what, 20 second cd?

 

I don't know their abilities in detail like the OP but the combination of all those is way over the top and the sheer amounts of them in every WZ is quite of a proof for me that something is amiss.

 

In the 50's bracket Sorcs constantly top dps between 300-400k or even more while having 50-100k healing.

 

I don't care what's wrong but it needs fixing.

 

You're describing the ever powerful, ever elusive 31/31/31 sorc.

 

-It takes 16 points in the healing tree to cleanse non-force debuffs. Almost any heal-specced sorc you meet in pvp will be FULL heal specced, meaning they're not doing much damage or CC

-sorcs have NO baseline root. They can go full madness and get a DoT with a 2 second root (rare, because as I mentioned earlier, the very problem is that full madness or full lightning are underwhelming options, which is WHY almost every non-healing sorc, pvp AND pve is a madness/lightning hybrid) OR they can have a break-on-damage root added to their knockback with 12 points in lightning

-please stop looking at leaderboards for justifications. Most of the high damage numbers you see from sorcs comes from spread out damage that isn't actually killing anybody, and (I could be wrong here but I don't think I am) a lot of the healing you see coming from DPS sorc is passive healing coming from DoT kickback (via talents and pvp set bonus)

[Szarala]

taking huttball environmental hazards as an example

-force pulling into hazards: as a juggernaut i can force push people into them, but they have to be the right distance away from it so when i push them they land in the zone. A sorc (and bh's with grapple who don't have sorc dps) just has to stand behind the thing.

 

sorcs can't pull enemies

 

-negating huttball hazards

all they need to do is put on their shield and they can stroll right through and sprint away from everyone waiting on the trap. They're the only class that can shield through it then pop a sprint afterwards. Warriors/knights can do this with charge but they require an enemy target to jump to.

 

almost any DPSer can pop this shield in one or two hits. If they're far enough away that you can't damage them before they get to the fire, you're having other team issues

 

abilities

-its spec specific but who's the brain-trust that put a slow (that will apply on full resolve and constantly apply) on a spammable high damage ability: lightning. Show me one other slow that does more then minimal damage or no damage at all and applies a slow.

 

..the sorc has to be standing still to use this and the snare breaks the moment the ability ends. It's also the sorc's main setup, meaning other abilities stem from it. Treat it like you treat tracer spam: interrupt it.

 

-pull: the lack of diminishing returns on same faction players is taxing to patience. You can chain pull someone with multiple sorcs (yes this one isn't about just one sorc). by comparison yes a warrior has a gap closer that can be used on friendly targets but it can't be used for the next 20 seconds afterwards.

 

team issue

[Tumri]

Tank/marauder with pocket healer is also OP in group. We should nerf tanks/marauders and healers. Nice logic there:rolleyes:

 

I know about this class, its OP in 1vs1 and even more OP in group. So it would ne only fair that we nerf THAT class first, now wouldnt it?

 

You use the "OP with a healer" and "OP in 1v1" argument a LOT. Nothing in this game revolves around 1v1 or 2v1(What you're basically saying with the pockethealer bit).

Edited February 23, 2012 by Tumri

[justcallmetarzan]

EDIT - please see this page for the links for builds, etc... they didn't copy to the new thread.

 

I'm going to reiterate what I posted in the first thread (again) with some more specific updates on what people have said in both threads...

 

Honestly, I'm tired of this spout of misinformation... please stop recreating this thread.

 

Assumptions I'm using for math:

Willpower: 1737

Force Power + Power: 1442

Crit/Surge/Alacrity: 410/153/346 (values from the spreadsheet BiS.)

DPS numbers are an "ideal" fight

Rotations are also "ideal"

 

A quick note too about the specs I'm using (I'm not going to go into full TK because I know absolutely nothing about TK past the 4th tier):

 

First - a standard 3/7/31 build for balance dps.

 

Second - a standard 0/13/28 build for hybrid dps.

 

Third - "full cc" build (the dreaded 0/20/21).

 

Fourth - a dps/cc build (0/19/22).

 

And last, a Tidal Force dps build (0/19/22).

 

Up front - here are the updated dps values for these builds:

 

3/7/31 - 1275 dps

0/13/28 - 1326 (1268 for above build. 1326 build is this one AFAIK.)

0/20/21 (cc) - 1063

0/19/22 (dps) - 1216

0/19/22 (tidal force)- 1216

 

(Note - a full TK build reports as 1285 dps.)

 

I should also note to maximize for the 1326 build, you must be getting a full 18 second Weakened Mind, as well as forgo the instant force lift and 20% buff to your bubble. More on that later.

 

The OP alleges this list of utilities (#4 missing in original):

 

Quote:

1. 4 second 30yrd range stun with a 60s CD. [Electrocute]

2. A 30 yard range 6s 50% slow with a 12 second cooldown. [Force Slow]

3. A slow build into their main filler attack. [Force Lightning]

5. A 20(30 untalented) second cooldown 150% speed boost that is the best of it's kind. [Force Sprint]

6. A 20 second CD(shortest in the game except for BH knockback with a set bonus) knockback. [Overload]

7. A 5 second root attached to the above knockback.

8. A bubble that provides between 3.5-4.5k absorption. Since average health pools are on average about 16k this can be looked at as an instant 20%-30%+ health gain on a 20 second cooldown. They have light armor but this skill makes them far tankier than most DPS specced players in any situation where the players aren't receiving external heals for extended periods of time and even then it's pretty much outright better than heavy armor. This bubble is not overpowered as it's essentially a counterbalance to their light armor. What makes it over powered is the talented CC that comes with it(More on that below). [static Barrier]

9. The above bubble has a 3 second AoE immobilize attached to it. The bubble can be Pre-Cast and kept up 100% of the time as a preventive CC that activates when you need it(when your bubble breaks). This can also be pre-cast and Static Barrier can be clicked off manually for a 3 second on-demand AoE immobilize and then the Sorcerer may immediately recast it if timed well.

10. A 60s CD single target immobilize(whirlwind/force lift). [Whirlwind]

11. A 2s duration stun if the above immobilize is broken by damage.

12. A 12 second CD 30 yard range interrupt. [Jolt]

-----------------------------------

13. A 30 yard friendly pull which provides an incredible amount of potential for tactical PvP plays and can save allies from the most dire of situations. [Extrication]

14. Self-Healing(Dark Infusion/Dark Heal while target(s) CC'd or not in LoS).

15. An AoE damage ability with no target cap and a 30% AoE slow to all enemies in area. [Force Storm]

16. A 30 yard range 4.5 second cooldown Cleanse ability that renders many DoTs and debuffs useless. [Purge]

 

**** I'm going to add the 2 sec root from Sever Force.

 

Not all of these abilities are available at once. Also, I think we can dispense with #14 because the capacity for self-healing is shared among 3/8 classes in the game (sage, commando, scoundrel), not to mention Guarded By The Force, which is essentially a self-heal given their dots' healing.

 

More notes on bubble. The values above are incorrect. The general thought at the moment is that trauma and expertise do not affect bubble value. The long and short of this is that expertise could not affect the value if trauma also did not (because expertise healing is trauma-ignore, not more throughput). This would make bubble values too low for anyone but BiS geared to get the 2.5k heal medal for a bubble.

 

Current estimates of bubble values are between about 3.3 and 3.7k. The values from the BiS assumptions in the spreadsheet linked above yield a 3310 bubble. Popping a 380 power trinket with those would give you a 3564 bubble.

 

Now, the meat and potatoes...

 

First, it's of critical importance to note that no Sage build can take advantage of all of the above utilities. In fact, without severely gimping one's dps, no Sage build can take advantage of most of them.

 

Second, the two most-complained about talents (the aoe mez and aoe root) are not that useful. The aoe mez is good for one thing - saving the Sage's butt. It does that pretty well, but in doing so, harms the rest of the team because it builds lots of resolve. The aoe root is pretty good in some circumstances, but because it is tied to a knockback, it will not work on targets with full resolve.

 

Third, many of the utilities mentioned don't apply to all classes. Roots and knockbacks are useless against ranged classes who can stand still and nuke you and who never come into knockback range. Almost without exclusion, the Sage's utility talents *being complained about here* are useful against melee - the Sage's natural sworn enemy.

 

Fourth, the OP ignores the balancing game that one must take to have access to all this utility, but still put out decent damage. This point is where I focus most attention.

Looking above, you can see the dps values for the different specs. Note that the two cc-heavy specs fall well short of full dps specs (by 20% and 8.3% respectively). Considering the immense loss of the pure cc spec, I'm not really sure there is much point in talking about it - it's a cc machine, nothing else.

 

That said, the fact that a 0/19/22 dps spec retains the cc ability merits consideration.

 

I believe the points I made above concerning the type of target on which the gained cc is useful stand. Sages need tools to escape melee, plain and simple. A good marauder or operative is a real pain in the rear to escape from alive. Personally, I find marauders to be more of a pain than operatives.

 

That said, taking the two aoe cc talents from the TK tree away from Sages probably won't hurt them much. But it probably won't help the enemy teams much either. The root from knockback is useful, yes. The aoe mez is useful to the Sage, but harms the team overall.

 

The question remains then, whether hybrid specs really are that overpowered. The answer, I believe, is - not really. Were they in fact vastly overpowered, I would expect to see a Sage doing 1.5-2x the damage of other classes, and this just is not the case. I will admit that the skill:damage ratio on a sage has a much lower curve than other classes, but after a certain point, skilled players of other classes are on par.

 

On a related note - the discrepancy in DPS seems to widen with gear, so for the majority of players, a hybrid spec is not going to pull as far ahead in pure dps numbers.

 

Also, I'd like to briefly dispel the notion that Sages "mash one button" and faceroll. Whoever started this idea is a complete moron. In a 15-sec rotation, a hybrid Sage will use 6 or 7 different abilities depending on procs. For a full Balance Sage, it's 7. Sages do not stand there and mash TK Throw - doing so is a HUGE dps loss.

 

Last but certainly not least - some info about my Sage:

 

I currently use a 0/13/28 build, and I enjoy the playstyle very much, especially when Imps are dumb and gather in groups for me. That said, I play the more survivable version of the 13/28 build, picking up the self-heal, instant force lift, and bubble buff and taking the lower dps. I'm seriously considering switching to a full Balance build, if for no other reason than to show the nubs out there that hybrids are not really doing crazy damage like everyone claims.

 

Sorry for the wall of text.

 

TL;DR : No dps sage worth their salt would ever be able to access all of the available cc talents. Many of them don't actually apply to non-melee classes. And the dps difference is not that big for hybrid/full-31.

 

************************************************************

 

Additional info:

 

Originally Posted by Tumri

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRrZcrcRsMk.1 - The ORIGINAL 20/21 build I linked. It's not even the best combination since it was just an example I threw together in 10 seconds while writing the OP.

 

I skipped this particular build because it's a complete waste of at least one talent point (in Lightning Storm). The only good way to proc LS is by channeling your aoe (longer cast time than Chain Lightning) or by casting Lightning Strike (same cast time as CL). Alternatively you can chance it by wasting the Wrath proc and hoping for a double proc, but then you lose the 20% buff to your aoe.

 

This build reports as 1208 damage.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...dRbZcrcRsMkM.1 - A DoT dependent version of the build that gains DPS but loses out on 20s Force Sprint.

 

This one also wastes the point in LS. It actually reports in at less dps at 1196 - you might think it would be more dps, but the proc rate on Lightning Effusion is high enough that it extends the usability of the rotation.

 

In the two builds above "Lightning Storm" may be substituted with a talent of your choice. I felt that it provided PvP utility by allowing more Chain Lightnings at times when people piled up but it's an optional talent.

 

In the first build, you would see the highest dps gain by moving that point to Force Horrors (up to 1216 from 1208).

 

In the second build, you would see the highest dps gain by moving that point to Lightning Effusion (up to 1225 from 1196).

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#20...dRrhZcMcRsMz.1 - A Bursty variant that sacrifices sustained DPS for more damage from Chain Lightning.

 

Hardly - this one reports in at 1226 dps...

 

Note that NONE of these builds give up any of the core CC talents and the talents that do get swapped in/out of based on preference are "Lightning Effusion" and "Suppression". The 10s CD reduction talent for Electrocute is only taken to reach the higher tier of Madness and that is why the 3rd build doesn't take it. It's a minor CD reduction in any case.

 

None of these builds is also particularly useful. We are still talking about roughly 8% drop in dps in order to pick up two extra CC's. One of which hurts your team, and the other is useful only situationally, or against melee.

 

Bottom line is, if you want to be a team player, don't take the cc talents unless that is your specific job on the team. And if it's your job, take them all. Respeccing to take "advantage" of an aoe mez and aoe root is tantamount to a choice to be less effective for your team.

 

Or to put it another way - what are the advantages of taking both of those?? Neither is long enough to keep people off a node while you cap it. Neither is good for stopping other people from capping a node (you have three ranged aoe's for that). If you have enough people on you that you need an aoe root, you are going to be dead anyway. It seems that all these talents do is let you live just a bit longer at the expense of ~8% dps and making it harder for your team to cc things.

Edited February 23, 2012 by justcallmetarzan
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