Anomorn Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Signed. This right here will be what makes me decide to cancel or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kanare Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 OK so what bio ware need to do atm, is first rename the difficulty's normal mode to free loot mode, 8 man , and soon to be in 16 mode to if you have your way. probably designed for level 45? hard mode = joke mode, Hard mode 16 man was still all a 1 shot 2 hour raid to clear most bosses even with no gear. nightmare mode = normal mode in other games. you need to wake up people join these games to pvp / raid you need to put stuff in for the people who actually want a challenge. Or you will lose your hardcore population witch will reduce your population in the game dramatically. make normal modes a joke fine , then make hard modes to current nightmare level easily doable by any 1 any way. then bring in nightmare level make it hard for us make us have to do every thing possible to kill them. because at the moment it is a joke. do not just put silly enrage timers in not every fight needs to be a dps race. This game has the makings to be truly amazing. be brave bio make raids actually a challenge make people work for gear, and items do it soon and most of all don't Nerf make it more difficult. / signed kanre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parthis Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 /signed. 16 man operations should be harder, as quite simply the reason cited for making them easier ("16 people are harder to manage") only applies to PUGs. 16 guild raiders are focused, determined and looking for a challenge. I don't care that the loot is the same. I care about the challenge. Just award some fancy titles or different mounts as a reward... it doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
realID Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 16s already are easier than 8s. The only thing more difficult for a 16 man group is the raid's trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellnassil Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 16s already are easier than 8s. The only thing more difficult for a 16 man group is the raid's trash. There is no Encounter which is harder in 8 man ATM. The only 2 Encounters which are difficult (could we say difficult for this tier.......no not realy) in the First Tier are Bonethrasher and J&S on 16 Man Nightmare. On 8 Man these Bosses are a Joke nothing more. Every Nightmare Encounter we tried on 8 Man (had one week with not enough People for 16 Man) was just a pull them and kill them....... no difficulty at all in 8 Man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabotsijk Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 It's the EA business model guys.... dumb it down so that it is appealing to as many as possible, turn a profit and then abandon it and jump on the next big name. I know you signed over your souls to EA, BioWare... but please for the love of Luke, Vader and Yoda. Don't let the ********* at EA ruin this for us as well. Like they've done with basically every game they've come in touch with. Making the game easier will only make players leave it. Not cause more to sub for it, unless you have a big PR thing in the making, along the lines of: "SWtOR. Being a Jedi have never been easier. Create your Jedi Warrior now, and have him do the washing up, make him fold his socks and watch him do his taxes! BUY IT NOW!" Because honestly... that is how easy you will make this game. We might as well be folding our socks. And I will certainly not recommend a game that is no more challenging than that to a freind. What is it that has made other games so big? What made WoW big? What made Counter Strike big? The correct answer would be: The competition. Competition between guilds... who will take the next encounter first? What team will be the highest rated team this season in PvP? With no hardcore community to speak how, how competetive do you think the game will be? FFS it''s just as simple as that! Competition breeds skilled teams... the not-so-skilled casuals will want to be as good, and will play themselves. Take football as an example, just to get things in perspective for you... same pricipal, though on another scale. What you have to do, like others have said ITT before, is to FIX the damn game (bugs and faulty mechanics are not considered a legit way of making an encounter hard, nor is "randomness" and doing nothing but scaling HP and DMG of bosses), really put on you ugly little thinking caps and come up with boss mechanics that make things interesting and keeps us alert and focused. Large numbers isn't the best way of making an encounter hard... what makes it hard is to have a team (OPS group, if you didn't understand that) that can work together to overcome all the crap that goes on in a fight. Then you have to REWARD players accordingly! If you're going to have three difficulties, you have to have three sets loot tables... one for each. A football player playing in the major leagues want to get payed accordingly... I really, really, REALLY can't see Wayne Rooney getting payed the same in Man. Utd. as an accountant playing football on the weekends in North Korea. And that has nothing to with the fact that that is football and this is a computer game... that is human nature. We want to get rewarded for our accomplishments.Complete it on the hardest possible settings? I expect the best rewards. So here you have a few options. Remove one difficulty setting (HM for instance), or add new gear for Nightmare settings. Personally, I'd want new gear. Because I don't want the size of the OP group to affect the difficulty, other than the fact that it is harder to organize 16 players. So ffs... don't let the game die because EA have the attention span of a frisbee and can't commit to one game for more than a year. *****... I made a wall of text. Prmoised myself I wouldn't do that, but there it is... screw you I don't care. Had to say something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mynden Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Bioware might as well get rid of 16's altogether if this happens. What will be the point to running them? Like a challenge? Nope Logistics? Nope Better or more loot? Nope Prestige? Nope Competition? Nope Guilds that took the time to organize 16's didn't deal with the extra hassle because they wanted faceroll. They did it because they wanted a challenge. I guarantee if this happens the majority of 16 man guilds will fracture. I was talking to some people in another 16 man nightmare guild today and they are already losing raiders back to WoW. I think we all knew the first tier would be iffy but honestly these design decisions aren't giving me a lot of hope. Edited February 20, 2012 by Mynden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValaxDarkseer Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Or there aren't 16 people there due to massive server population issues. OR. Maybe....just maybe.............most people dont run 16mans because 8man is easier? I know crazy right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lostpenguins Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Agree with OP. Well, I don't care if 8-man or 16-man is easier so long as HM is actually hard and not the lol'ness it is right now. The only thing that gives us challenges in current content is bugs... w/ no bugs everything is super easy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlagaNerezza Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 From the recent Q&A panel the last question and answer are as follows: Lexiekaboom: 16 man Operations are much harder than 8 man Operations (to the point where most guilds can easily clear hard mode 8 man before being able to clear 16 man easy mode) but there is no loot difference at all to doing them. It's better to send your 16 man raid force to clear two 8 man instances .Is this oversight or design? What will be done to offset this in the future? Gabe Amatangelo: This is not per design. The teams have been addressing this in the weekly patches to some degree and more so in Game Update 1.2. It is intended that 16 player mode is slightly easier than 8 player mode due to the fact that getting and coordinating 16 players is a larger hurdle in and of itself. I would like to make a plea to the Dev's in regards to this and hope that like minded individuals will respond. Please DO NOT make 16 man operations easier than 8 man. I would venture to say that a vast majority of guilds that chose to do 16 man content is because they prefer the challenge. I know this is the case for my guild. If a guild set out from the start to be a solely 16 man guild then they probably did so expecting a stiffer challenge. The ideal situation would be for the two size of raids to be equal in difficulty, as well as equal in rewards. Or even better yet I would love the WOLTK model of the bigger raids being harder, as well as getting better rewards. I like the challenge. I like the prestige of completing harder content, and the rewards that come with that. As it stands right now 16 man content IS harder and I like that. Now there are a few exceptions where 8 man SOA is harder than 16 in my opinion, as well as fabricator droid in Karaggas is harder on 8 man as well. Other than that 16's are as difficult or more so than 8's. I like this, and I'm bothered by the response to the question posted in the Q&A. I don't want the easier route. Yes getting 16 people on the same page is harder than 8. This much is true, but if people were already committed to 16's I bet they were already planning on and expecting a bigger challenge so it is accepted and welcomed. So again I plea to the Dev's to NOT make 16's easier than 8's. Make them equal or keep them harder. I hope most 16 man guilds would agree. Maybe I haven't done enough hardmodes or ops groups and I most certainly won't comment on your feedback. I will say making these take more time to complete is not a way to encourage participation. This game is incredibly easy, but everything takes way to long to complete and the mechanics and insanely stupid. I had all I could take doing Emperor's whatever last night. Completely unfun experience. From the useless loot I got. Bad RNG luck for the smuggler. Happens, but shouldn't. The length of time to go through it. Just stupid kill zone after stupid pointless kill zone. To the bosses. Ok, I am not here to make friends or hear how you like to raid. I don't really care. I have specials. They have supposed rules governing there use. I have roots and cc's. Particularly useful in HM's against enraged bosses. Well they don't work. Knockbacks. Nope. I was ready to quit last night. You turned it into a dps/heal spam snorefest where by some stupid half thought out mechanism was working counter to the normal skills. I was like ok. I'll leg shot him when he enrages so you can kite out that 1 special kb that takes your health to 5%. Whoops. Doesn't work. flash? He's immune. Ok I will hunkerdown. I am getting force chocked. How about defensive skills. I'll pop dodge when he enrages. Wham! special goes through my defenses. Ok.... At this point I've had it. The mechanics of these "HM" raids or whatever you call this stuff is just not for me apparently. I'll not be participating in these sorts of things because of the just ludicrious amounts of what I see as bugs. If I am bound by the game rules the NPC's need to be as well. They are not apparently and get all sorts of advantages to make it harder. 1 time of stupid is all I will put up with. by the way its not hard. Its long. There is a difference. Hard means requires a players skills. Nothing I did required my true skill. Maybe playing something not DPS would help, but honestly I didn't get an impression anyone was trying that hard. Just ok know we must interrupt. K. Next. CC left, CC right. K. Next. I thought it was very much a bad experience. Maybe you should think about making the entire thing take about 1/2 the time. I'd fight bosses. Twenty-five inbetween mobs.... WTH. Way to flat out waste my time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noroimuja Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 /Signed Bioware wasting their time walking backwards rather than spending the same effort adding more mechanics on hard/nightmare and fixing bugs. Its going downhill folks, getting ready to buy Guild Wars 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FallenFaux Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 /Signed Bioware wasting their time walking backwards rather than spending the same effort adding more mechanics on hard/nightmare and fixing bugs. Its going downhill folks, getting ready to buy Guild Wars 2 You do realize that GW2 doesn't even have raids? TSW ftw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlagaNerezza Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 You do realize that GW2 doesn't even have raids? TSW ftw That is where bioware should start from. Take the maps and start over. I'd like a boss only HM. its the only hard part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthier Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 Maybe I haven't done enough hardmodes or ops groups and I most certainly won't comment on your feedback. ..... Clipped for brevity .... I'd fight bosses. Twenty-five inbetween mobs.... WTH. Way to flat out waste my time. I think you are talking about 4 man Hard Mode flashpoints. Like the "false emperor". Yes they do have a ton of trash, but once you get some gear and players with you who are likewise they go decently fast. You can do hard mode Black talon in under 15-20 minutes (granted it's the easiest). This thread is directed at 8 and 16 man operations. Specifically Karaggas Palace, and Eternity Vault. Perhaps I misunderstood you, in which case my apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthier Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) That is where bioware should start from. Take the maps and start over. I'd like a boss only HM. its the only hard part. A boss only instance with no trash...... Don't remind me of THE single worst raiding "tier" in WoW..... TOC!!! Trash actually adds to the encounters/overall feel. Now granted too much trash is dumb too. Edited February 20, 2012 by Luthier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocadoj Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) A boss only instance with no trash...... Don't remind me of THE single worst raiding "tier" in WoW..... TOC!!! Trash actually adds to the encounters/overall feel. Now granted too much trash is dumb too. I understand what you mean, but I actually like to not clear trash lol. I don't play video games for immersion, I just play to kill challenging bosses and get loot (I know, I know, why did I pick SWTOR to play). TOGC had no trash because it was part of its story/background. It is "Trial" of the Grand Crusader, meaning it was suppose to give you the gladiator feeling. It was definitely not one of WoW's most appealing tiers, but throwing one in there like that every now and again isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was just Blizzard's attempt to give us something new. The same reason they gave us vehicle fights that most people didn't like. I am not opposed to developers attempting to be innovative or change things to see how we like it. Edited February 21, 2012 by Nocadoj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthier Posted February 21, 2012 Author Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) I understand what you mean, but I actually like to not clear trash lol. I don't play video games for immersion, I just play to kill challenging bosses and get loot (I know, I know, why did I pick SWTOR to play). TOGC had no trash because it was part of its story/background. It is "Trial" of the Grand Crusader, meaning it was suppose to give you the gladiator feeling. It was definitely not one of WoW's most appealing tiers, but throwing one in there like that every now and again isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was just Blizzard's attempt to give us something new. The same reason they gave us vehicle fights that most people didn't like. I am not opposed to developers attempting to be innovative or change things to see how we like it. I know what TOGC was trying to do.... it just failed. It is, almost unanimously, considered the worst tier of WoW raids in recent history. It wasn't because of just the fights, because they were fine it just lacked any real sense of accomplisment. I think trash has a role in this because it adds to the landscape (and this hurt ToC too because there was none really) for a bigger stage and environment. In this respect I think SWTOR does very well. Eternity Vault is very diverse and pretty damn awesome I think in terms of feel, immersion, ect. But all this is off topic..... Edited February 21, 2012 by Luthier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soolander Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 /Signed, 16 man nightmare is easy enough as it is. The only thing that holds 16 man unyielding titles back are bugs and extremely over-tuned trash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mynden Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) I understand what you mean, but I actually like to not clear trash lol. I don't play video games for immersion, I just play to kill challenging bosses and get loot (I know, I know, why did I pick SWTOR to play). TOGC had no trash because it was part of its story/background. It is "Trial" of the Grand Crusader, meaning it was suppose to give you the gladiator feeling. It was definitely not one of WoW's most appealing tiers, but throwing one in there like that every now and again isn't necessarily a bad thing. It was just Blizzard's attempt to give us something new. The same reason they gave us vehicle fights that most people didn't like. I am not opposed to developers attempting to be innovative or change things to see how we like it. So if this goes live what does it mean for Serenity? Back to 8 mans? I refuse to split our group up, but the idea of running gimp mode isn't too appealing. Edited February 21, 2012 by Mynden Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magey Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 /sign 16 should be harder then 8s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glenbruton Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 and btw i quitted one month ago. English better not be you main language Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vulgram Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 Attempting to tune 8 man content to be on the same footing as 16 accomplishes only ONE thing -- it trivializes your overall raid game. BW admits to building 'slack' into the larger format as a means of lowering the difficulty. What they're trying to ignore is that the best, most rewarding, raid encounters in *any* game have required excellent throughput and execution from every raider, not just a subset of better performing raiders. It's a team game. MMOs are social by nature and building a team is part of that socialization. Assembling a well oiled, high performance 16 man team is a more difficult accomplishment than coming up with an 8 man team. BW might as well have standardized their raid size if they're going to consciously submarine the larger track anyway. TOR's raiding is already on such shaky footing due to a lack of difficulty and incentive to run 'Nightmare' (lol) modes. This would just nuke it IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murah Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 I totally agree that 16 man raids should be a lot harder, and I'm one of those gamers that probably won't get to see that content. I'm okay with that. The end bosses have been disappointingly easy in even the regular 4 man instances. The most fun I've had so far was the night my guild went into a hardmode when we were woefully undergeared. At least it was finally challenging! The designer's logic that 16 man raids should be a little easier than the 8 mans because part of the difficulty is getting 16 people together is laughable. If you're in an organized raiding guild (I have been in my past) then that's not really an issue. Is it that bioware doesn't want to spend resources on designing/creating content for the top 5%? If they weren't going to do it, they shouldn't have thrown around words like "nightmare". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nocadoj Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 (edited) So if this goes live what does it mean for Serenity? Back to 8 mans? I refuse to split our group up, but the idea of running gimp mode isn't too appealing. We are still going to do 16 mans the week after we clear 8 just to say we did it. We have learned from launch that no matter how fast we clear 8s, 16s get more prestige/attention. We clear content with three 8 mans because we can spread those raid schedules across the entire week with different times. Our guild loves it because people have so much flexibility for raiding. If Bioware gave us some incentive to do 16 mans we would, but there is no reason to make people converge on one 16 man raid schedule just because some people "believe" it's harder. Should 16s be harder? Only if there is a reward for doing it or an incentive. Until then, we are going to stick with what gives us more flexibility. Edited February 21, 2012 by Nocadoj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Rezo Posted February 21, 2012 Share Posted February 21, 2012 /signed The only reason it's hard to get 16 people together is because there is no point. Give 16 some better loot and people will try. There are lots of groups out there that are looking at 16...but end up splitting into two 8s. Edit: I'm in a PvP guild, and even we are finding the PvE content too easy. I can only imagine it's a faceroll for the people who do PvE as their main focus. +1, if there is no reward for finding 16 people and making content of the same degree of difficult (which is sighly harder because 16 man coordination is harder than 8 man). Make the 16 man operations the next step on PvE progression and there you go. First 8 man normal -> 4 man Hard Mode -> 8 man Hard Mode -> 16 man Normal Mode -> 8 man Nightmare mode -> 16 man Hard Mode -> 16 man Nightmare mode (with amazing drops unique like epic mounts, epic stuff and maybe even a cinematic). I hope they make it like this, so every guild have to actually FIGHT for the best place, not stick to 8 man and thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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