Should SW:TOR start de-emphasizing the trinity?

[Galbatorrix]

Thats not how it feels at all. The "role" concept was designed to force people to group together.

 

If the tank fails, the group will fail. If the tank doesn't show up, the group can't play. If the tank's gear is crap, the group will fail. If the tank doesn't pull correctly, the group will fail.

 

So much responsibility and weight on 1 role. Ever wonder why no one plays a tank? This isn't rocket science dude. The trinity model is old, outdated and just plain terrible at encouraging teamwork. Period.

 

 

How would you make it better? Have 4 people equally capable of everything aggro/heal switching the whole fight? While that could be fun, finding 3 other people capable of doing such a thing would likely be much more difficult than finding one good tank.

[GalacticKegger]

Oh THAT trinity system LOL. Ya, I think the trinity system promotes team play the way team sports do - different positions performing different functions in concert together. A PITA to perfect but beautious to be a part of when it clicks. Though BW's take on it is an improvement imho with every class having the ability to spec into heals. Unless the game is based solely on strategy or problem solving where the playing field is completely level and nothing but player skill or decision input affects the outcome, I can't see a replacement for it. Edited February 20, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Arkerus]

I wouldn't mind seeing some dungeons that don't require the typical setup but more odd designs.

 

Just a few. Don't need to revamp the game.

[Galbatorrix]

Oh THAT trinity system LOL. Ya, I think the trinity system promotes team play the way team sports do - different positions performing different functions in concert together. Though BW's take on it is an improvement imho with every class having the ability to spec into heals. Unless the game is based solely on strategy or problem solving where the playing field is completely level and nothing but player skill or decision input affects the outcome, I can't see a replacement for it.

 

 

 

Only Commandos/Mercenaries, Operatives/Scoundrels and Sorcerers/Sages can be heals...

[Calei]

Replace tank with healer or DPS and you get the same result.

 

Not true.

 

The very existance of the tank role requires a healer. Eliminate the tank and the healer is also gone. Make the damge avoidable and healers are no longer dedicated. You can replace the entire healing class by giving everyone a potion.

 

I never understood why a someone has to babysit someone elses health bar. If players had to manage thier own health bars, errors could not be covered up and you'd have a much easier time seeing who the weakest links are just by seeing who keeps dying.

[Galbatorrix]

Not true.

 

The very existance of the tank role requires a healer. Eliminate the tank and the healer is also gone. Make the damge avoidable and healers are no longer dedicated. You can replace the entire healing class by giving everyone a potion.

 

I never understood why a someone has to babysit someone elses health bar. If players had to manage thier own health bars, errors could not be covered up and you'd have a much easier time seeing who the weakest links are just by seeing who keeps dying.

 

 

So, you'd rather have a DPS zerg fest? Also, you'd have to get rid of Gunslingers/Snipers altogether due to them being so stationary.

[BMBender]

Not true.

 

The very existance of the tank role requires a healer. Eliminate the tank and the healer is also gone. Make the damge avoidable and healers are no longer dedicated. You can replace the entire healing class by giving everyone a potion.

 

I never understood why a someone has to babysit someone elses health bar. If players had to manage thier own health bars, errors could not be covered up and you'd have a much easier time seeing who the weakest links are just by seeing who keeps dying.

It's more "accessable" this way:D kinda like wheel chair ramps

[ThiborF]

Not really.

 

All you need is different designers with different ideas. The trinity model isn't hard coded into the game. The enviroment and NPC system designers could trash the tank and healer model in a single patch.

 

You can design a boss enounter without needing a tank. This is not complicated. You can desgin NPC damage to be avoidable thus removing the need for a healer. This is not complicated. You can retool the class tool box with different skills and reblanace them.

 

The only thing you really need are different people with new ideas. Copying and pasting systems that already exist from other games is getting old.

 

So trash the existing threat system based on having tanks that build it, add avoidance mechanics for all characters and then redo 8 advanced classes skills/talents and balance those.

 

And it's not complicated.

 

I bet you're also one of those armchair politicians who say that balancing the budget isn't complicated either.

 

"Copying and pasting systems that already exist from other games is getting old" ....

Meaning we should copy and past them from a new game (like GW2) that hasn't released yet and proven its system is the new paradigm?

 

Sounds like you folks are advocating for a "CU"

I remember the last one, no thanks.

 

Don't misunderstand me. I am happy that GW2 is trying a different model. And I'll be more happy if it succeeds with it. There should be marquis games that fit the needs of varying play styles. It's why there are games that are sim racers and others that are arcade racers, sport games where you are the player and sport games where you manage the franchise, etc etc.

 

As for the assertion that WoW is hemorrhaging players because of the trinity system ... umm, proof?

People may very well be leaving because of that. OR

Because they don't want "kung fu panda" (there forums lit up with this excuse when MoP was announced)

Because it caters too much to the casuals

Because they're tired of dailies

Because they're tired of endless gear-grinds

Because their favorite class got nerfed again

Because PvP sucks

Because PvE is the same old same old

Because the game is 7+ years old and people just want something new

Because other games that are as or more fun were released

 

It's funny but, while I frequented those forums for seven years while having an active account, I can't say that "the trinity system sucks!" or "needs to go away/change" was any significant percentage of threads. While in recent months they were changing up some of the mechanics for tanks to make their role a bit more fun/engaging, they weren't walking away from the trinity. If Blizzard is trying that with MoP then it's because they fear they can't remain relevant in a trinity theme park niche with games like Rift and TOR on the market as well as upcoming releases like GW2 with non-trinity mechanics have high interest (at least for now.)

 

Also I would suggest you go look at the typical subscription curves for MMOs. What's happening to WoW isn't anything new except their peak was much higher and their decline phase post-peak is more drawn out. The curve itself though is a a familiar shape.

[Eepinephrine]

Also, I'd like to add that the trinity system also promotes re-playthroughs. If you were a Sentinel the first time, playing through as a Guardian tank will feel completely different due to the role you're playing. If they take away the trinity and give everyone tanking/healing/dps abilities, then every single class would feel identical and one play through would net you everything the game has to offer, gameplay wise.

 

 

As is, playing through as a Sentienl, then Vanguard, then Sage all feel different because each offer different play styles. I'd like to keep it that way.

 

I disagree that they feel completely different. While leveling chance are you are going to be w.e. spec allows you to solo. After awhile, your just damaging down mobs, regardless of the spec, granted removing the trinity doesn't solve this issue either, having it doesn't make it go away.

[Uben]

It is too late now for a change to the trinity. They built their game around it. To change now would take a ton of testing and balance. A total NGE for the combat system. It never works.

[Drewser]

Not true.

 

The very existance of the tank role requires a healer. Eliminate the tank and the healer is also gone. Make the damge avoidable and healers are no longer dedicated. You can replace the entire healing class by giving everyone a potion.

 

I never understood why a someone has to babysit someone elses health bar. If players had to manage thier own health bars, errors could not be covered up and you'd have a much easier time seeing who the weakest links are just by seeing who keeps dying.

 

Very true - no healer, no group, no DPS, no group

 

Of course if you change the dynamics of the encounters different class combos could do it but that was not the point of your original post I responded to.

 

Sounds like you will enjoy GW2. Other people enjoy games where players fill roles.

[Eepinephrine]

Why bother making more than one class per faction if these classes aren't going to be needed in balanced configuration for encounters in the game?

 

The title of this thread should read more like "Should SW:TOR start changing the purpose of their game?"

 

That moronic, changing how players play their character doesn't mean they have to remove their current rendition of endgame content. Sure the content might change slightly from a technical standpoint, but that doesn't come even remotely close to "changing the purpose of their game".

[Eepinephrine]

Very true - no healer, no group, no DPS, no group

 

Of course if you change the dynamics of the encounters different class combos could do it but that was not the point of your original post I responded to.

 

Sounds like you will enjoy GW2. Other people enjoy games where players fill roles.

 

Having roles isn't the basis for group content. Having classes that aren't designed to get beat on or spam heals on person getting beat on entirely due to mechanics being designed that something has to (A) soak unavoidable high damage. Remove (A) and that is easily 90% of why we need tanks and healers. Making boss damage avoidable, more use of player specific abilities that will thwart said boss' damage, etc... That doesn't mean you will be able to go in and solo endgame content, it means the endgame content won't be a number crunching game like it is now to a certain extent.

[Megaphys]

FFXIV removed the trinity entirely and look where it got them.

 

It's a case of "If it isn't broke don't fix it"

 

Basically if you want to get rid of the trinity you will have to do away with the entire class system and have everyone be DPS with medipacks.

 

I think Battlefield 3 is that way ======>

 

uhhh fxiv didnt even close to removing the trinity. The only thing you could say was they made healers also able to damage if they chose, but generally in groups one, or multiple peoples focus was to keep people alive through heals, 1 to tank and the others to dps. Sometimes you would get offtank situations if multiple mobs happened, but thats about it.

 

Champions online didnt remove the trinity either. I enjoyed that game, but regardless of how you created your charachter, for the big bosses, like therakiel, you basically needed

 

a tank

dps

and a healer.

 

sure you didnt need the trinity to fight 1000 weak mobs, or solo, but why would you need the trinity to solo.

 

or some combination involving those 3. There were some super builds that could get around having all 3, but those were more a result of having incredibly better gear than everyone else, and a couple of poorly balanced abilities.

 

Thinking that is not trinity is all the same and the only way to do something is false. Its basically like saying anything that isnt apples suck, and your example is oranges and bread. There is a much wider variety of not apples than trinity. People thinking there is only trinity and not trinity ehhhh.

[ferroz]

Everquest needed support classes because HP and mana regen was so god awful. A bard's HoT, or an enchanters clarity.

after level 10, bards were wanted for mana song over hymn of restoration.

 

Modern games moved away from 20 minute+ regen times, so those classes are not necessary anymore.

No, it was for buffs, CC, debuffs/damage mitigation.

 

buffs: Primarily Haste, over haste for the bard. An enchanter moved a melee from 130-141% haste (assuming a 30% or better haste item) to 200% attack speed (the haste cap), which is a ~40-50% damage increase. A bard could move them to 235% with overhaste (extended the haste cap). Bards also had various attack buffs, the best resist buffs in the game (with a drum), and some of the best stacking damage shields in the game.

 

CC: Mes and charm; bards were pretty amazing pullers if they knew what they were doing (I could have one being killed and one mezzed and on deck at all times).

 

debuffs/damage mitigation: Runes & stuns (enchanter), magic resist debuff, attack debuff, and slow, and other resist debuffs as needed (bard).

 

 

 

No, those 2 classes were wanted for a lot more than just mana regen.

 

Beyond that: after PoP, the primary reason you needed a support class was to handle slows (shaman, enchanter, beastlord, bard, ranger with earthcaller as a last resort) ... those were necessary. After slows, a puller or CC was needed (bard, monk, enchanter, cleric with paci, druid with harmony, shadowknight, necro, ranger/mage coh shenanigans, etc)

 

EDIT: that's assuming you wanted to do group content; you could kill stuff for AAxp in a group using alternative methods (aggro kiting was popular at times)

Edited February 20, 2012 by ferroz

[Farho]

As for the assertion that WoW is hemorrhaging players because of the trinity system ... umm, proof?

People may very well be leaving because of that. OR

 

.....................

 

Because PvE is the same old same old

Because the game is 7+ years old and people just want something new

Because other games that are as or more fun were released

 

Do you know that you just contradicted with yourself.

 

Trinity system: same old pve, not something new, and less fun than some other games.

[ccoolmint]

I play as a tank and healer and i can't stand being a Dps so without the trinity your basicly ruining the game for me Edited February 20, 2012 by ccoolmint

[BMBender]

I play as a tank and healer and i can't stand being a Dps so without the trinity your basicly ruing the game for me

along with the poster below

 

I rest my case;

 

whom have you convinced?

Edited February 20, 2012 by BMBender

[mangarrage]

So eliminating the fact that you need tank healing and dps what exactly are you looking for all dps?

 

So no need to heal and no need for someone being able to take heavy hits

 

So basically bosses would stand there and hit like wet noodles while 8 dps just pew pew him down

 

Sounds like a fun game....

 

You eliminate the need for tanks and healers you eliminate the concept of raiding and bosses as well

 

Although in a pvp only based game it would be fantastic imo, but any end game pve would be gone

[ThiborF]

Do you know that you just contradicted with yourself.

 

Trinity system: same old pve, not something new, and less fun than some other games.

 

You read into that what you wanted to.

 

"PvE is the same old same old" meaning that it's another cave or room, with some more trash to clear before there's some big boss that once everyone knows his trick becomes a simple matter of executing the steps "of the dance."

 

And no, I did not contradict myself even if you choose the read into it the meaning you did because I acknowledged that people being tired of the trinity may be the case for some. Just that there's little evidence of that being the reason on WoW's forums.

 

All the whining and complaining and drivel on those forums, all the "I quit" posts, etc. and people listing "bored with the trinity roles" wasn't the popular reason the OP asserts it to be.

 

Thanks for playing. Try again.

[Eepinephrine]

along with the poster below

 

I rest my case;

 

whom have you convinced?

 

My goal isn't to convince the entire player-base this very moment they trinity is 100% obsolete. It is more aimed at having a discussion about the future of this game, as non-trinity games from major developers are less than a year away. Arguing it can't change is stupid, every genre (including this) goes through re-defining changes once people get tired of the same old gimmicks, and with this game having a mixed launch, it would be a good idea of Bioware to look into other avenues to make sure their game remains competitive in a changing very soon market (GW2, TSW, WoW:MoP <--- only to a certain extent for the last one).

[Vagessel]

It's too late now for them to change from the trinity model. But I can see why they stuck to it. It' the lowest common denominator, a system most players understand. I've seen very enjoyable non-trinity systems that end up having to create a fallback trinity system simply because the original form is too free, without structure, and fresh new players would be lost in the system. The trinity, much as I dislike it, kinda works in this regard.

 

Really wish that was not the case. For non trinity systems to pick up in successful game's some genius must come up with a very simple, intuitive implementation accesible to the masses of "non-professional" players.

[GalacticKegger]

Only Commandos/Mercenaries, Operatives/Scoundrels and Sorcerers/Sages can be heals...

There are heal functions in the Knight/Warrior trees, but ya - I stand corrected. Edited February 20, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Megaphys]

I play as a tank and healer and i can't stand being a Dps so without the trinity your basicly ruining the game for me

 

problem is you are thinking about things in old roles, you hated being dps in the trinity system.

 

For example lets take gw2, which will offer one type of non trinity based system.

 

you will not simply be a healer, you will be a charachter who can do multiple things, if you enjoy support, you can choose to develop skills, and pick traits that help you support. you can give your regular attacks the ability to heal people in your area. you can sacrifice damage for defense up aoe. but your class isnt born as a healer and can only be a healer. As well, although you can take care of some support and health regeneration, you do not take the whole role on yourself solely. Other players may be expected to at times, use their own defensives skills, or pop a self heal. Likewise you will not be using your charachter to the fullest if you never attack anything at all.

 

 

im not going to lie and say that you will get the same experience as you may like in GW2, or in some other possible form of a non trinity system. Im just saying its not what you think, its not like we dont need any support, and people cant help their teamates in any way besides doing damage, its more like working together, but without extreme specialisation, and specialisations only tied to one class.

[ccoolmint]

problem is you are thinking about things in old roles, you hated being dps in the trinity system.

 

For example lets take gw2, which will offer one type of non trinity based system.

 

you will not simply be a healer, you will be a charachter who can do multiple things, if you enjoy support, you can choose to develop skills, and pick traits that help you support. you can give your regular attacks the ability to heal people in your area. you can sacrifice damage for defense up aoe. but your class isnt born as a healer and can only be a healer. As well, although you can take care of some support and health regeneration, you do not take the whole role on yourself solely. Other players may be expected to at times, use their own defensives skills, or pop a self heal. Likewise you will not be using your charachter to the fullest if you never attack anything at all.

 

 

im not going to lie and say that you will get the same experience as you may like in GW2, or in some other possible form of a non trinity system. Im just saying its not what you think, its not like we dont need any support, and people cant help their teamates in any way besides doing damage, its more like working together, but without extreme specialisation, and specialisations only tied to one class.

 

while that does sound nice on paper I don't know if it would work out that well in game