Dahoff Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Don't worry OP, the inevitable nerf bat will find them soon enough. I love reading the defense posts. There's a reason 80% of Imps are playing them and no it's not just because of their "utility". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mournblood Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Class population saturation occurs in one of these instances: 1. The class is OP. 2. The class is perceived to be OP. 3. The class is fun/cool. If the class is actually OP, it will be nerfed. Since Sorcerer/Sage QQ has been going on since launch and the only changes so far to the class have been a small buff, the rational person will see that #1 is false.. If there are a lot of people who simply refuse to L2P, and believe the best way to get better at PvP is to get every other class nerfed, the forums will be filled with QQ about how OP a class is. This will cause the FOTM crowd to immediately start rolling the "OP" class because they want to be facerollers. Once the faceroller hits max level and learns the reality, they will either reroll or they will keep playing the class they have become familiar with. Based on the huge volume of nerf requests, paired with the mostly hyperbolic "my warzone was all sorcerers!" threads, it is pretty easy to see that the forum gives the impression that sorcerers are OP, however, as referenced above Bioware has not nerfed the class because they have actual metrics by which they determine OP, UP, and Balanced specs. If the class has a cool story, is fun to play, or just looks like a BAM-FWIC it will attract a lot of players. The Sorcerer has all three. In summary, your argument that population proves power level is logically flawed and will be ignored by rational readers. TL;DR version - I'm right because in the absence of an official Bioware response, there is nothing else to prove me wrong. I'm not implying anything. I am stating the fact that the developers have the tools to analyze metrics. What they do with the results can be debated, but in the end, it is their game and no class is OP or UP if they say it isn't because they are the ones making the rules and giving the grades. Actually, you were. You were implying that since there hasn't been any Sorc/Sage nerfs since launch, then the QQ about them must be unjustified, hence you concluded incorrectly that #1 was false. But as has already been pointed out, Bioware's competence at MMOing leaves much to be desired. There's at least a dozen fairly significant issues in this game that they still have NOT fixed, many of which are far more important and game impacting than the relative OPness of one AC in PvP. The fact that they haven't gotten around to adjusting Sages/Sorcs yet shouldn't be taken as an indication that they are fine, and we all just need to l2p. Edited February 20, 2012 by Meluna rude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jizerai Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I'm right because in the absence of an official Bioware response, there is nothing else to prove me wrong. That proves nothing. You are not right simply because there aren't any evidence proving you're not wrong. That is pretty much a straw man argument from your part. While his/her position on this matter is subjective, so is yours. Your opinion is that Sorcerers/Sages are overpowered, based on subjective and anecdotal evidence. His/her opinion is based on the same thing. That does not make either of them "fact" - which is why we can certainly voice our opinions and give reasons as to why we have them. But in the end, it is the developers that have the data and are in a position to rectify and "overpowered:ness" that might be present. TL;DR: Your opinion isn't fact because you feel you're right. The developers have the data available to them. They will do something about it if it indeed needs to be done. Edited February 20, 2012 by Meluna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousK Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 IMO the most relevant argument is going to be the overpopulation one. Why are their so many gd sorcs/sages? Their story is so/so. Lightning is cool, pebble spam, ok sort of cool. But not hugely more so than crazy lightsabers or giant autocannons. They are self sufficient, easy to learn/play, and do very well as dps or healing. Its not good for the game to have such an over-representation of a single class, and IMO that over-representation is due to their effectiveness/ease of play. Ill leave it to each reader to decide for themselves why we see games with 6 sorcs/sages out of 8 players.... on both sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xJACKTHERIPPERx Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Here's my 2 cents about inquisitors that people dont seems to realize. Inquisitors, like bounty hunters are the only classes on the Imp side that, depending on their AC, can tank, heal and DPS. So of course it stands to reason that there's going to be more of them since they can fill every roll. My jugg for example, can only tank and dps, my sniper can only dps, so there are going to be fewer of us than inquisitors since we can only do 1 or 2 things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arctic-wolf Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Ha, Everyone complains about sorc. If you went against a team of 5 bh's trust me you would be crying here even more. yea that..Absolutely nothing do with scor. Its hybrid thing and unbalanced profs with to many stuns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggz Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Why so many people in online games prefer to faceroll their face off than achieve something with a little bit of skill? Almost every WZ i enter there are like 6-8 inquisitors in one team. I cant even see map cuz everything is purple, so many stupid lightnings. I never get that, why ppl roll classes that are easy and for newbs, just like ret palas in wotlk, just like frost mages now. Please BW nerf sorcerers. Sick damage, like 3 imbollizes, stun, bubble, bubble-blind, healz, sprint, constant channeled slow, knockbacks. I mean it, what the...? I just was in WZ where total number of players were 16, and there were 13 inquisitors... PvP in SWTOR isn't cool anyway, but sorcerers make it even worse. Please do something about it because this is riddicolous. See ya peeps and may the force be with You. Amen! I hate sages - they are easy mode Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Here's my 2 cents about inquisitors that people dont seems to realize. Inquisitors, like bounty hunters are the only classes on the Imp side that, depending on their AC, can tank, heal and DPS. So of course it stands to reason that there's going to be more of them since they can fill every roll. My jugg for example, can only tank and dps, my sniper can only dps, so there are going to be fewer of us than inquisitors since we can only do 1 or 2 things. Hunters were the highest population class in WoW even though they couldn't tank, or heal, the player knew what they were getting in to when they picked it. High population means one or multiple of the following: -Easy to play. -Easy to level. -Easy to be good in PvP. -High demand in PvE. There used to be at least 3 Operatives in every game of PvP I played, until after they got nerfed, and now it's 1 every 3 games. Edited February 20, 2012 by savionen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DesshMorlev Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I am game for Sorc/Sage to get a hefty nerf wouldn't hurt my feelings cause i have never and will never play one. I am actually really hoping they get a nerf soon so i can see so many whiners explode of this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CuriousK Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Here's my 2 cents about inquisitors that people dont seems to realize. Inquisitors, like bounty hunters are the only classes on the Imp side that, depending on their AC, can tank, heal and DPS. So of course it stands to reason that there's going to be more of them since they can fill every roll. My jugg for example, can only tank and dps, my sniper can only dps, so there are going to be fewer of us than inquisitors since we can only do 1 or 2 things. Makes some sense, and to a certain extent yes I agree. My perception though has been that for many games, there seems to be a disproportionate number of sorcs/sages, even though the merc/powertech (and rebel mirror classes) can fill all three of those roles also (tank/heal/dps) Its rarer i would see 6 troopers in a game than seeing 6 consuls (which happens a fair number of times) I also say there is a bias for ranged over melee. Melee classes are just harder to play IMO. You have to get in there and expose yourself to enemy attention. you cant use LOS effectively to reduce damage to you (since your in the midst of them) and your dps is 100% dependant on staying in melee range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ForceWelder Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Then don't carry it over? I don't see much of an issue, and I may be being narrow minded, but I see the obstacles as a way to slow down games, tanks don't *need* to carry the ball over the fire, they can wait and with a decent healer backing them they're probably smarter for doing so. Heck, even if I bubble myself I tend to wait unless I have sprint, because a smart opposition wouldn't mind stunning you in it. Also, I didn't mean that as instead of, I was merely pointing out there are ways of buffing/changing other mechanics, because nerfing a class for only PvP has PvE ramifications, there has to be a balance unless they had a PvP buff that changes what skills did in those scenarios which could be cool as well... Get sprint? Tanks don't have sprint in combat. And all sombody has to do is dot them or attack them. Every class but the force runner variety has to wait for the fire to stop, leap across (if they have the ability), get pull across by somebody else, throw the ball to someone else, or simply risk the push through the flames. With the heavy armor, it is possible for those armor users to survive a walk through the flames with their reduced speed, but when they come across they will have virtually no health left. Only those with ridiculous armor ratings and exceptional high hit points will make it through the fire with more than a sliver of health. And in doing so they are now prime targets for anyone to get a quick kill. The walk through the fire generally only works if there is a dedicated healer spamming heals to keep them up while walking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redshirtricky Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Why so many people in online games prefer to faceroll their face off than achieve something with a little bit of skill? Almost every WZ i enter there are like 6-8 inquisitors in one team. I cant even see map cuz everything is purple, so many stupid lightnings. I never get that, why ppl roll classes that are easy and for newbs, just like ret palas in wotlk, just like frost mages now. Please BW nerf sorcerers. Sick damage, like 3 imbollizes, stun, bubble, bubble-blind, healz, sprint, constant channeled slow, knockbacks. I mean it, what the...? I just was in WZ where total number of players were 16, and there were 13 inquisitors... PvP in SWTOR isn't cool anyway, but sorcerers make it even worse. Please do something about it because this is riddicolous. See ya peeps and may the force be with You. You should've expected The Sorcerers' Inquisition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turando Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Please do something about it because this is riddicolous. See ya peeps and may the force be with You. So, what.... you want Bioware to cap sage/socerers on servers? Nerf them? Or is this just another rage thread? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scoobings Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Ha, Everyone complains about sorc. If you went against a team of 5 bh's trust me you would be crying here even more. Not if it was huttball... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAVAjedi Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Threads like these are why we need combat logs... (make it happen BioWare!). Without them, anything people say here can be exaggeration or just an outright lie. We don't really have anything definitive to work with (and, personally, I think hearsay is not exactly the strongest basis for bringing out the nerfbat). EDIT: Yes, I believe some of you have valid arguments, but that's not the point. Edited February 20, 2012 by JAVAjedi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Olarid Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Inquisitors are fine! LTP! But there are tons of them http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/85/sorcct.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/sorc2.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/sorc3a.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/sorc4.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/638/sorc5.jpg/ Edited February 20, 2012 by Olarid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Inquisitors are fine! LTP! But there are tons of them http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/85/sorcct.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/96/sorc2.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51/sorc3a.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/204/sorc4.jpg/ http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/638/sorc5.jpg/ There are tons of them because they're the best PvP class by far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattotwo Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 It's about the nerfed the amount of cc Sorcs have. The resolve bar is broken only tanks can stay alive before its full. Time to nerf them before rated WZs come out or everyone wil be rolling Sorcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mournblood Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Really, it's pointless to argue with players who are clearly biased (or just that oblivious to actual balance issues). I don't need to convince anyone when there's a 97 page, 1000+ post thread still active on the topic of Sages/Sorcs: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=302206. Why do you think that is? And what do you think is going to happen? I'll give you a little hint - they are going to get nerfed.....hard - it's just a matter of time. Ok, maybe that was a huge hint, like blowing the surprise out of the story huge, like Dumbledore dying in Harry Potter. Edited February 20, 2012 by Mournblood Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baalazar Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 There are tons of them because they're the best PvP class by far. There are tons of them because people in beta worked them out to be the best class. Now people are actually branching out from that and learning the other classes. Jugg/Guardians are very powerful as are Vanguard/Powertechs. Any of these classes well geared can easily take out a sorc/sage if they are a good player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abimelech Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 In the OP's defense I have seen an entire opposing team made up of Consulars and I've seen a whole team made up of nothing but Troopers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsubodia Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Really, it's pointless to argue with players who are clearly biased (or just that oblivious to actual balance issues). I don't need to convince anyone when there's a 97 page, 1000+ post thread still active on the topic of Sages/Sorcs: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=302206. Why do you think that is? And what do you think is going to happen? I'll give you a little hint - they are going to get nerfed.....hard - it's just a matter of time. Ok, maybe that was a huge hint, like blowing the surprise out of the story huge, like Dumbledore dying in Harry Potter. a big thread of qq doesnt mean **** all. especially when 90% of the people posting in it have no clue what they are talking about. why is it? its because the forum is full of bads who qq because they are bad. like yourself. Ive just been trained by a scoundral all *********** WZ eating 4k crits from stealth to have the ****er re-stealth and start again. anyone with a brain will insta gib a sorc or sage as they die stupidly fast. if your too bad to kill one thats your own fault. they wont get nerfed. and they wont get nerfed "hard" at all as they are not imbalanced. if they where im balanced surely bioware would have done something by now.. like they did with scoundrel/op opening burst. a good player will rip a sorc apart if they push them 1v1 and if you train one they drop in seconds. even as a sorc i can drop a sorc or sage pretty fast due to a lot of the playerbase being bads like you re rolling and thinking "hey im super op" some of these posts infuriate me beyond all levels. If you really want some education go read tumri or tauri or whatever the **** his name is.. his ongoing thread. he at least has some abjectivity despite his overwealming bias but the rest of you qqers need either stop being bad. or **** and stop whining because your bad Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orangerascal Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Really, it's pointless to argue with players who are clearly biased (or just that oblivious to actual balance issues). I don't need to convince anyone when there's a 97 page, 1000+ post thread still active on the topic of Sages/Sorcs: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=302206. Why do you think that is? And what do you think is going to happen? I'll give you a little hint - they are going to get nerfed.....hard - it's just a matter of time. Ok, maybe that was a huge hint, like blowing the surprise out of the story huge, like Dumbledore dying in Harry Potter. Please, we're bioware's love child. How could they nerf a class played by 88% of the population. Come join us . Edited February 20, 2012 by Orangerascal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cragen Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Really, it's pointless to argue with players who are clearly biased (or just that oblivious to actual balance issues). I don't need to convince anyone when there's a 97 page, 1000+ post thread still active on the topic of Sages/Sorcs: http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=302206. Why do you think that is? And what do you think is going to happen? I'll give you a little hint - they are going to get nerfed.....hard - it's just a matter of time. Ok, maybe that was a huge hint, like blowing the surprise out of the story huge, like Dumbledore dying in Harry Potter. Yet what I see in those posts is nothing but hyperbole and lack of evidence. The Sith Inquisitor being a popular base class for Imperials doesn't automatically make the class overpowered. But more that people love lightning and double bladed lightsabers. I mean Phantom Menace is terrible, yet people are running to see it again in 3D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kayse Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) I really cannot find the problem with sages/sorcs. In fact if in find them the easiest, squishiest class to kill and they are far from OP in my personal opinion. I out dps every sage/sorc in 1 v 1 scenarios on both my BH and my Marauder and i can eat their shield in 1-2 hits..Its not op. Their damage is not op they just get high damage on the charts because they dot and aoe everyone. Then spam consumption or w.e it is (Life tap) then heal up for easy medals usually. They are extremely easy to interrupt since they rely on channels so much and are just so squishy. I find them to be weak in pvp and thats why im making an assassin. All because 6/8 of them are Sorc it doesn't mean they are OP, just OU. It's an insanely simple class to play from what i have fought where even my sorc friends tell me its simple. You just throw dots and channels and pray no one interrupts you if you are trying to cast or try to kite as you get snared and destroyed. Edited February 20, 2012 by Kayse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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