True, or predation speed, but my point was more that you shouldnt burn your gap closer early, you might need it to get back to your target after a knockback. I find the biggest mistake new maras/sents make is not applying their snare immediatly, and burning their charge to initiate contact, only to be knocked back before they can do much in the way of damage.

I think you completely missed the part where he said he shifted over from a BATTLEMASTER LVL 50 SORC. Hes clearly played in a 50 environment and is aware of the scaling of classes as you proggres through levels in PVP.

Your not entirely off base. You do need more buttons on your hotkey bars to effectively play the class as compared to say a sorcerer. The difficulty in playing this class doesnt stem from some mystical skill thats required though. IMO its two factors. 1. Your damage is reliant on timing your rage builders, and your reactive strikes where the game does not always give you great audio or visual signals that a given event has occurred (ie its hard to see you have low rage/focus, and very difficult in a hectic combat to realize you just parried 2. Your melee, and you have to focus on what skills to use when, maintain situational awareness, and move in order to stay in melee range of your target. PS opening with charge is often a mistake, unless you have no other way to close saving your charge for the inevitable knockback is often a much better choice. Nothing worse than having a full rage bar... a half dead opponent and getting burned down after a knockback while waiting for your charge to refresh.

This isn't all the changes, but it covers most of the things that you would be interested as a non OP/Scoundrel OP/Scoundrel DPS They are adding cooldowns to the attack from behind, and attack from stealth abilities, which reduce the frequency that those classes can burst. Nut Shot can now be cast while moving, without rooting the Scoundrel HEALING They are buffing the AE healing capacity, and adding some additional quality of life enhancements for their healing (longer duration on their secondary resource, allowing that resource to stack to 3 instead of 2) Sniper/Slinger They are adding a trauma (healing) debuff to the armor debuff ability (6s duration) They are buffing the 31 pt sabotage talent (AE fire ability) Net effect, less bursty damage from Scoundrels/Ops, they will become more effective healers in PVP. Slingers/Snipers will be more dangerous due to the healing debuff they apply.

Keep in mind the post isn't specifically about PVE sorc/sage healing, which is really the only situation your post makes sense in. Hybrid specced sorcs and sages in PVP never run out of force, or so rarely that it may as well be never. Operatives in PVP almost never use diagnostic scan. Its a waste of Two GCDs rooted, invitation to get roflstomped. Operatives rely on keeping their total energy above 60 for energy regen, not on diagnostic scan. (it helps, but its not our main source of regen)

This comment makes a lot of sense. Most hybrids were using CL/Force wave for single target burst anyway since it was superior to the 1.5 casting single target nuke. Basically Mind Crush/crushing darkness if it was up, Chain Lightning/FOrce wave otherwise. Hitting multiple opponents was a bonus, but it was still the best single target dps choice for the POM/Wrath proc. Buffing Disturbance damage to a level where its a single target equiv of Chain lightning / Disturbance seems a logical change. I dont think ppl would argue that it does too much damage, and most would argue the opposite (its barely worth casting at all ifyour specced 11 pts in madness)

Lol, I have 7 toons on Ajunta Pall... all different classes. Ive played Op (both Conc and Heals) Slinger, Sorc, Mara, Merc, Vanguard. By far the best utility was the sorc, and I had no complaints about my damage unless my target was getting freecast heals. I stopped playing my sorc and moved to a slinger becuase it was more challenging, and since it was getting embarrasing to have warzones of 6+ sorcs. Huttball arenas were starting to look like a badly wired power station bathed in purple. Im not under any illusions that a hybrid specced sorc is going to be able to put out burst damage like a pre 1.2 pyro powertech/vanguard, or a slinger/sniper but I had no issues finishing off ppl one on one, and it certainly didnt take 30s. I think im done with the theorycrafting or attempts to get anything more than subjective comments about percieved class dps imbalances. No one on either side of the argument seems interested in doing anything besides ranting at each other. We will have numbers from the PTS server over the next days/weeks, we can work with real numbers instead of sheer conjecture.

This ^ I've been tearing ppl apart in warzones on my gunslinger, and contrary to what everyone seems to think, snipers/slingers can be highly mobile. Cover mechanic can be a pain, which is why most slingers/snipers use crouch... and roll to cover only when it makes sense to. I think most ppl are just fixated on the immobile sniper behind cover stereotype. Its a fallacy, if you chose to you can be as mobile as any other class, and still put out crazy burst. Are there times where you are stationary railing ppl with speed shot/aimed shot/charged bolts, absolutely. But there are plenty of tools to use when this sort of static gameplay doesnt suit the situation (attacking/defending the ball carrier, assaulting an objective etc)

So let me get this straight, your speccing 31 points into the tree that has predominantly Dots as its damage... and your complaining it takes too long to set up, and the damage isnt up front ? What exactly did you think a Dot heavy spec was going to be?

Just wondering if this is the same OP.... that poster seemed to actually care about posting with information to back up their thoughts (even if some of them werent accurate) while this post is just more of the same meaningless drivel complaining about the sorc situation without anything useful being added to the discussion. (blah blah blah i dont have burst like a vanguard pyro my class is broken)

Well the number of attacks might make each hit more significant in terms of its damage spike, but overall the number of attacks doesnt affect the damage in relation to critical hits. I agree though, this model that we are discussing doesnt take into account long term sustained dps, or reliance on procs, or differences in pvp/pve playstyles. All I am attempting to do here is establish a baseline to work from. It may become a bit of an excercise in futility though, combat logs are starting to come out from the test server and into various forums, so its just a matter of time until we see side by side comparisons of dps straight from the logs. Again, this 12s rotation is just a baseline for comparison, I wouldnt ever claim that this is representative of even a fraction of the variables that go into pvp dps.

We are just working with the OPs comparison to a commando as a starting point, since they have a similar mechanic to us, and similar AC Choice (healing/dps hybrid) "To see this spec get nerfed is sad, and almost a deterrent not to play a sage/sorc ever again. Balance/Madness has no where near the damage out put of almost 90% of the other classes." citing a dps comparison of Sage dps Vs Commando dps. I think the majority of us would agree that neither commando nor Sage have the highest burst potential of the ACs. Pretty sure thats Mara/Sent, Gunslinger/Sniper territory.

is this PTR testing with the new combat log? if so do you have a link to the thread?

Id say realisticaly your not going to get off the two 1.5 second channels, though I dont think its too much of a stretch to get a PoM proc for both the Mind Crush and the Telekinetic wave. (4 chances each channel, 30% chance each tick) I know the dice have no memory having a 16 to 20k starting point seems valid to me, we can break that down further if we need to. So same time frame, same target (low armor, afk, no cooldowns) how does the commando fare? Would they run Armor Piercing Cell or plasma Cell? 0 -> 1.5 - Grav Round - ? 1.5 -> 4.5 - Grav Round - ? 4.5 -> 6.0 - Grav Round - ? 6.0 -> 7.5 - Demolition Round - ? 7.5 -> 10.5 - Unload - X tics of Y damage 10.5 -> 12.0 - High Impact Bolt - ?

This works for me, i havnt been able to get that to work for me at all (the 2 channeled tele Throws with the haste) but if we want to try and best case scenario it, im willing to use that as a model to work from. So can we assign some damage to this? Weaken mind is going to get 4 tics PoM Mind crush will get its DD component as well as the full 6s duration Dot. PoMed telekinetic wave should also have the 20% damage bonus from PoM factored in from this we should be able to identify the total dps over the 12s period, as well as identify the burst in isolated 2s chunks. Anyone that has a commando that can comment on that rotation? and the numbers we could expect for damage pre 1.2? 0 -> 1.5 - Grav Round 1.5 -> 4.5 - Grav Round 4.5 -> 6.0 - Grav Round 6.0 -> 9.0 - Demolition Round 9.0 -> 10.5 - Unload 10.5 -> 12.0 - High Impact Bolt (we will pre-suppose that they have a dot/cc on us)

We could model both a lucky and an unlucky version for both commando and sage and see how they compare. The commando one is a bit less RNG reliant. Id like to try modeling a slightly lucky string based on SeanPoes burst rotation first though if that works. We can certainly explore a worst case scenario for dps as well.

I hear you there, lets assume for the model that we are slightly lucky, and get a proc before we channel our second pebbles/lightning. We can assume that when we do the modeling for commando that they also get lucky, and get a plamsa cell proc near the end of their rotation so that they are eligible to hit us with a high impact bolt (6s duration fire dot ticking twice before it expires)

I tend to agree this is the strongest PVP spec, but since we are exploring damage and burst, and in particular the ability to burst a single target, it doesnt make sense to me to be putting points into healing and AE damage talents for the purpose of this test. (though im open to opinions otherwise) Your rotations though, agreed. If we could id like to work with your high burst version (healer gibbing) since that seems to be the point of most contention for a lot of the threads I read (non competitive dps, especially in regards to other classes on demand burst) Lets assume you get some luck on your side, and exclude the cooldowns/stuns/interrupts for simplicity. 0 - 1.5 -> Weaken Mind (proc on tic prior to second Telekinetic Throw) 1.5 - 4.5 -> Telekinetic Throw (full 3s channel, 4 tics, POM procs) 4.5 - 6.0 -> PoM proc Mind Crush 6.0 - 7.5 -> Hasted Telekinetic Throw (full 1.5s channel, 4 tics) 7.5 - 9.0 -> Force in Balance 9.0 - 10.5 -> PoM Proc Telekinetic Wave (20% boost from PoM) 10.5 - 12.0 -> Telekinetic Throw (partial 2 tics since only have 12s of dps time) the last action is probably open to some debate, but likely you would want that chance for another PoM proc. Project isnt really an option imo. Can we attach some napkin math numbers to these values if we think this is (close) to an optimum burst rotation for pvp?

sort of irrelevant to the conversation. if i have a full length game of voidstar with neither side getting through the first door those are easy numbers to hit. we are discussing dps, and in particular trying to model burst dps in pvp. Pls dont derail the thread.

Also do you think its valid to include a phsycic projection proc in the 12s rotation (reduces one of the Force Lightning/Telekinetic Throw Channels from 3s to 1.5s)? If we are giving an average dps case for sage vs commando over 12s id presume the commando was in Plasma cell, so we should probably model a proc dot from that cell also. I dont know if the crit rate on an affliction tick is a good comparison RNG wise to a proc from Plasma Cell.

Hmm i hadnt considered this since I dont spec that far into madness. Typically (pre 1.2) I spec into the 30% proc talent for Chain lightning (forked lightning/telekinetic Momentum), which allows for a bit more RNG burst on wrath/PoM procs. Do you think we should try and model both and see if the boost to dot damage makes a dramatic difference? Im not sure its worth it in this 12s example since it wont be available again during the rotation, and the main concern for sage damage on this thread seems to be the lack of on demand burst. Its basically a 20% boost in damage to your dot ticks only correct? It doesnt impact the damage on Chain Lightning/Pebbles (which i think is considered to be channeled, and not periodic) I should also mention my thought is this would be a PVP comparison, rather than PVE. Since for most PVE encounters sustained dps is more important than burst, though burst defeinately has its place in some encounters. I dont do a ton of PVE, so I wouldnt be speaking from a lot of experience trying to model sage/sorc damage in PVE.

I think hes trying to say Decreased Diminishing returns on Expertise in patch 1.2. The DR curve for expertise is flatter for post 1.2, so you can stack more expertise and not hit the massive falloff that you used to encounter at around 550 expertise pre 1.2. Healers will benefit from a greater healing boost in PVP from expertise post 1.2 patch thanks to being able to stack more expertise.

I claim no such thing, in fact im pretty sure that Sage burst dps is not as good as some other classes burst. I just dont think that that means they are ineffective in PVP, or that their damage is so far off the mark in comparison to other classes as many ppl would have me believe, its certainly not what I have observed when I play mine in a warzone. If you are as confident as that in the disparity, help to model the damage in a 12s scenario in this thread http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=369822&page=2 If nothing else it will serve as evidence of the lack of sage/sorc dps. With it you can have some data to back up the 100% certainty you have that your single target dps is sub-par to every other class in the game.

4 melee on you, I dont care what class your playing, your likely going down. Even tank classes are hard pressed to survive outside of their cooldowns with four dedicated dps on them.

Fun is subjective, and not every sage/sorc out there is getting owned 1 on 1 over and over again. Whats your point here? That you wanted dps sorc to be a massive burst fest like RNG pyro specced Vanguard? And suprise it isnt?