SWTOR Endgame = Alts?

[Andryah]

This whole excuse-making phase of trying to compare the game to other games at launch released a decade ago came later, and really had nothing to do with my initial point or why I even wrote the post you all went crazy over to begin with.

 

It had everything to do with your subsequent dug-in position as to what is "apples to apples" (ie compaing an old MMO to a new one in terms of judging it's end game content). You know, the position you kept feeling the need to defend to multiple parties in the thread who pointed out that you were not being objective or realistic in your position (including the party you so much seem to need to say he agreed with you on, so that you can swing yet another passive agressive my way).

[NoxiousAlby]

Pretty much says it all. Is it just me or does this really seem to be true?

 

Swtor marketed for the casual/solo player and provided the ultimate leveling experience with class quests. What they forgot to do was provide end game character progression for these same players, some of whom dont raid.

 

Yes BW just assumed we would roll alt after alt after alt, they assumed wrong. I'm on my 4th and am struggling. Find myself playing Wot more often to pass the time, my patience is running out.

[JeremyDale]

It had everything to do with your subsequent dug-in position as to what is "apples to apples" (ie compaing an old MMO to a new one in terms of judging it's end game content). You know, the position you kept feeling the need to defend to multiple parties in the thread who pointed out that you were not being objective or realistic in your position (including the party you so much seem to need to say he agreed with you on, so that you can swing yet another passive agressive my way).

 

Stop saying I'm being aggressive lol I'm not being aggressive with you.

 

And yes, I let myself get sucked into this stupid debate over how this game compares with games of 10 years ago at launch, so I'll take responsiblity for that. It's a stupid irreleveant discussion I should have just avoided all together.

 

But anyways, it doesn't change the fact the post you /signed agreed with my original post and my iniital point, and that is that this game's endgame is not typical and other MMORPGs out there (least all the ones I have played) had a lot more endgame content and features than this one does.

 

I'm done discussing the whole 10 years ago at launch thing. You can make excuses for this game's lack of an interesting endgame if you want - that is your right, but it's a tedious pointless debate I've lost interest in.

[Claymaniac]

I am using comparable examples...you are just refusing to compare them.

 

When you have to go back in time 5, 10 years to defend your game, there is an obvious problem. You may as well compare this game to a nintendo game from the 80's and say how awesome it is by comparison. That's basically what you are doing.

 

And I've already addressed this stupid argument a zillion times with you people who keep trying to bring up past MMORPGs at Launch to defend this game's lack of endgame content.

 

Back in those days the leveling up process took much longer. There is no way you were max level and tooken out Mordith a month after LOTRO was released unless you almost killed yourself playing it. Players were not level 50 after 1 month of playing - so even if I did abide by your silly standards and think it's reasonble to compare current games to games released 10 years ago it doesn't even stand up on those grounds either.

 

It was a different world back then, and MMORPGs were a lot different - and placed a lot more emphasis and time on the actual leveling up of your character, and took far longer to accomplish on games of the past than the current models. So a need for a more expansive endgame wasn't nearly as important for games to have at or soon after launch back then.

 

That's just ridiculous. You are mistaking quantity for quality. I am not saying this game is awesome compared to a NES game. I am saying the quantity of content in this game is comparable quite favourably to other games in this genre at launch.

 

You are out of your mind if you think every MMO that comes out will be packed with the QUANTITY of content that MMO's that have been around for years will. You really expect GW2 to come out and have the same amount of content WoW does now? You think Project Titan will have the same amount of content LotrO does now plus whatever they add in the next 4 years? Get out of here.

 

By the way, it took me 2.5 months to get 50 in LotrO. Took me 2 months here. But, people were 50 within weeks in LotrO. Heck, with Rise of Isengard, people were 75 literally 3 days after the expansion launched. And I'm not knocking LotrO, I have been a lifetime subscriber since day 1. That's just how MMO's are.

 

And no, it wasn't a "different world" when LotrO came out. If you brought up FFXI, EQ etc, sure, I'll buy it. But since WoW, MMO's haven't been about taking forever to get to the level cap. Just about all higher profile MMO's now not only allow you to rush to the cap, but allow you to do so solo. WoW had its first lv60 a couple weeks from launch:

 

http://vnboards.ign.com/world_of_warcraft_general_board/b19789/79743849/p1

 

Edit: by the way, remember in LotrO, how when it launched no classes had any skills to train past lv35 or so? And we had to wait for Month of Champion, or Month of Hunter updates to get all the skills till lv50? But noooo, LotrO provided a more complete experience at launch.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Claymaniac

[Poochymama]

And how is this different from other MMO's?

 

Once I got top tier PvE and PvP gear in Aion I was bored to tears, actually I was bored to tears grinding that gear out... Same with Age of Conan and same with EQ2...... All you could do in those games was to roll alts also...

 

I think it's just amplified in SWTOR because it's base mechanics are so similar to other MMO's you get that "Been there Done that" feeling faster....

 

 

EQ2 actually had a ton of raid content at launch, but for the most part you're right. Age of Conan actually had less to do (significantly so) than this game.

[mufutiz]

Pretty much says it all. Is it just me or does this really seem to be true?

 

exactly this.

 

 

the problem I see with it is a horrendous one though.

 

sure, class story is nice.

 

but the whole leveling experience is so incredibly linear with virtually no variation, it's not even funny. Will become very old very fast.

 

I have 2 characters on each faction and the only way I can see myself leveling up another character is exclusively warzones + class quests. which would suck on another Empire character...

Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz

[mufutiz]

 

And no, it wasn't a "different world" when LotrO came out. If you brought up FFXI, EQ etc, sure, I'll buy it. But since WoW, MMO's haven't been about taking forever to get to the level cap. Just about all higher profile MMO's now not only allow you to rush to the cap, but allow you to do so solo. WoW had its first lv60 a couple weeks from launch

 

the first level 60's on pretty much alll servers in wow had multiple people playing the accounts 24/7 and it still took like what, 10 or even more full days /played ?

 

Most people probably needed twice that, or close, to get to level cap. I think my first 60 had something like 17 or 18 days /played and that took me more than 2 months even though I was spending as much time in the game as studying and a hyperactive girlfriend allowed me back then (so a lot about 5 hours on a daily average i would think). might be wrong, I don't really remember.

 

The first 50s in swtor appeared 2-3 days after early access went live. big difference. a little over 2 days /played, exploit or not (who cares, honestly. certainly not bioware)

Edited February 19, 2012 by mufutiz

[TheLonelyTusken]

Strange, I have been 50 for atleast 4 weeks now and I'm loving it, don't even have an alt yet.

 

That being said, I only play about 2-3 hours a day. I enjoy being able to contribute to my gear progression in a short amount of time each day.

[DJJAZZY]

It seems very much like most other themepark mmos out there. Someone else in this thread said it right, it's a "done that already" feeling. I think veteran mmo players are just getting tired of the same old gameplay.

 

WTB well made sandbox mmo.

[mufutiz]

It seems very much like most other themepark mmos out there. Someone else in this thread said it right, it's a "done that already" feeling. I think veteran mmo players are just getting tired of the same old gameplay.

 

WTB well made sandbox mmo.

 

veteran mmo players are not the target audience for mmo's anymore. sad but true.

[CriticalMasses]

I played Lotro and WoW as well. Housing? Really? You are calling that end game? Seriously?

 

Some people make decorating their housing a hobby in games like this.

 

Once again another limitation of the game, as we get handed a ship we may not want, and can't decorate it.

[Wattser]

MMO design needs to be like a tree.(I would love it to be shrub, but follow)

Its a straight linear climb to the high area, and when you hit the higher part there is lots of branching(things to do) if a tree does not branch enough and make leaves it will die. My biggest peeve was the PvE content was too easy. I believe its because it followed the new popular end game structure from WoW, Rift, etc. People who can make hard endgame content I would give it to soe. To date their expansion released in February of 2011 their end game has still not been fully cleared by any guild and only 15 guild World Wide have even entered the highest tiered raid zone.(Source: )

 

Simply make stuff difficult, not by way of grinding, and make the rewards worth it(columi to rakata gear is a joke) and people will keep interest. Also, I wouldn't mind reset timers on raids to be say 4 days from first kill in zone. Not weekly reset

[cujojax]

I have yet to play an MMO that didnt suffer from some of these problems.. I dont understand why people feel SWTOR was gonna be different...

 

The budget for one, the development time, the powerhouse companies involved in this, their advertisements and hype, the fact that they are trying to compete with Blizzard???

 

after reading all pages of this thread I agree with OP and his points, not once did he come across as unreasonable...or aggressive for that matter.

 

Ive said this a few times before (and yes I should have tempered my expectations of this game apparently) What wow has now in terms of features I would expect to be in a game released to compete with it in 2011. Someone said it best with comparing it with nintendo from years past, technology advances, hell xbox kinetc is old news now.

 

Not only should those successful features be included but you'd think they would be improved upon (competition drives the business world and Im not talking about just having different IP's) I would even go so far to think they could have new stuff that Blizzard would wish they had thought of (outside of the va story, which is good) Anyways the games fun, but its pretty hard to disagree with alot of the stuff in the general forums...and yes, this is all just MY opinion.

Edited February 19, 2012 by cujojax

[Kayden]

I played Lotro and WoW as well. Housing? Really? You are calling that end game? Seriously?

 

Not everyone are satisfied with just queuing for ??? to get points for gear

 

What amazes me, is that we have a huge amount of players who are sick and tired of WoW's very limited endgame, and what does SWTOR do? copy it and it's far from as "good" as it is in Wow

 

fail

 

 

But I'm sure that KOTOR fans and baddies are enjoying it.

 

And dx9??? really?

Edited February 19, 2012 by Kayden

[pojectshadow]

Using the excuse the game has only been out for two months and that's why end game content is bad, is a terrible one and the reason why so many MMO's fail. Everyone knows by now, this game should have never been released when it was and we are all paying for a game that is pretty much in betta. They should have waited until summer or even December 2012 to release this game with a solid end game structure instead throwing content together as fast as possible so they can get the game out in time for christmas. The fact that you could clear all the content in a mere month of casual playing is just sad. I really only played this game four hours a day and have my main in rakata gear an alt whos half way through rakata and two other alts i use for pvp. May 1st really can't come fast enough.

[motmansb]

Using the excuse the game has only been out for two months and that's why end game content is bad, is a terrible one and the reason why so many MMO's fail. Everyone knows by now, this game should have never been released when it was and we are all paying for a game that is pretty much in betta. They should have waited until summer or even December 2012 to release this game with a solid end game structure instead throwing content together as fast as possible so they can get the game out in time for christmas. The fact that you could clear all the content in a mere month of casual playing is just sad. I really only played this game four hours a day and have my main in rakata gear an alt whos half way through rakata and two other alts i use for pvp. May 1st really can't come fast enough.

 

do you know anything about mmo's m8 if you think this is beta go back to call of duty xD

why is everybody thinking this is a game that was maked like WoW it takes time and bioware got alot of fans asking to launch early and they did what the fans wanted so and why are you complaining XD if you don't like it go the ppl that like this game don't need ppl like you here then but we know in a a few months SWTOR is gonna have verything it needs and the endgame was maked to try out every char thats why they did not add a solid endgame yet they did not expect to have ppl already to have 6 to 7 char compete yet so sorry for the mistake ppl make mistakes .

[DigitalDreamz]

do you know anything about mmo's m8 if you think this is beta go back to call of duty xD

why is everybody thinking this is a game that was maked like WoW it takes time and bioware got alot of fans asking to launch early and they did what the fans wanted so and why are you complaining XD if you don't like it go the ppl that like this game don't need ppl like you here then but we know in a a few months SWTOR is gonna have verything it needs and the endgame was maked to try out every char thats why they did not add a solid endgame yet they did not expect to have ppl already to have 6 to 7 char compete yet so sorry for the mistake ppl make mistakes .

 

Launch early? From announcement to release it was 6 years. I think they had plenty of time. Also cost 200+ million. They had plenty of money.

 

There are a host of developers and game companies that can create a title twice as good with half the time/budget.

 

Bioware isn't handicapped where we should be nice and forgiving to them. They are a professional gaming company and wanted us to believe this is a "AAA" title. It's not and they deserve the ridicule they're getting.

[SnakeBites]

do you know anything about mmo's m8 if you think this is beta go back to call of duty xD

why is everybody thinking this is a game that was maked like WoW it takes time and bioware got alot of fans asking to launch early and they did what the fans wanted so and why are you complaining XD if you don't like it go the ppl that like this game don't need ppl like you here then but we know in a a few months SWTOR is gonna have verything it needs and the endgame was maked to try out every char thats why they did not add a solid endgame yet they did not expect to have ppl already to have 6 to 7 char compete yet so sorry for the mistake ppl make mistakes .

 

you have no clue what you're talking about, do you? Just rambling.

[AtomicSquid]

I'm afraid to even make alts now since they keep tossing the words, "new characters" into posts about Legacy. If Legacy doesn't affect my existing characters, I'll be pretty pissed.

[motmansb]

Launch early? From announcement to release it was 6 years. I think they had plenty of time. Also cost 200+ million. They had plenty of money.

 

There are a host of developers and game companies that can create a title twice as good with half the time/budget.

 

Bioware isn't handicapped where we should be nice and forgiving to them. They are a professional gaming company and wanted us to believe this is a "AAA" title. It's not and they deserve the ridicule they're getting.

 

yea this is a game that cost 200+million and it shows m8 you just don't know what it cost to make a game like this its not like fcking WoW not this needed voice actors,they needed to pay every staff member games like this take time and yea they had alot of time but even the best can't make a game like this:the story's,the great voice acting,the space battles.you need to think what they needed to wait for and its AAA game in my book there mising stuff but come on WoW missed stuff to when they launched m8 like every mmo bioware did great so far so whats wrong m8 the endgame well go play more other games and maby help ppl that are new.and the missing stuff they promised us that did you not see the video there gonna be making alot of stuff and like afew posts back you can tell them what you want yea you gonna need to wait afew months maby but your gonna get it.

now we can do this all day m8 its simple if you don't like it go play somthing else we the REAL fans of SWTOR and BIOWARE play the game even when it gets boring or you stay and stop saying this game sucks cuz it not true and if you want something ask for it in the good section of the forums XD

[motmansb]

I'm afraid to even make alts now since they keep tossing the words, "new characters" into posts about Legacy. If Legacy doesn't affect my existing characters, I'll be pretty pissed.

 

it does it affects every character you make m8 that the point they wanted us to make new characters becuase of that.

[motmansb]

you have no clue what you're talking about, do you? Just rambling.

 

why m8 it true i know more then you i do this for a living i review games and movies for a company in belguim called gunk so i know what i'm saying

[Monoth]

Well... you aren't even playing any MMOs right now either, because you are on the forum talking to me as well. So any so called point you proved applies to you too...

 

Actually im at work just taking a break and checking out the forums... If I could play at work I would...

 

I agree their is a lack of end game content but I've yet to see ANY MMO that had great end game content after it released...

 

I just get tired of people trying to compare this game to games that have 5-7 years worth of content added on since launch...

 

People who rush to the end game are always going to complain their bored in every MMO after it comes out....

 

I bet if I could search in the old forums I would find most of you guys were complaining that Bioware wasn't giving a release date and they were taking to long to release it and that you would be willing to play it as is as they finish it up... There were tons of posts like this back then... Now these same people slam it for not having the same amount of content as WOW even tho that game has been out forever and has several expansions ..

Edited February 19, 2012 by Monoth

[Knewt]

The biggest issue with TOR's end game is they completely abandon what made this game so good from 1-50: the storytelling. I know asking for more story at level 50 is an almpst impossible task. We will consume the content faster than they can create it. However, they didn't add enough gating at end game to make the content that exists last longer.

 

So TOR falls back on the tried and true, MMO end game principles established by earlier games like EQ and WoW and replicated in modern games like Rift. This would be an acceptable end game if they added more tools to make finding groups and doing things at 50 less frustrating.

• The LFG tool is horrendous.
  
• The lack of dual specs makes life more difficult for the most in demand group roles (tank and healer).
  
• The lack of UI customization makes information harder to process and rewards people for staring at their character buff area.
  
• The lack of a combat log make theory crafting much more difficult. As seen in other games, a robust theory crafting sub-community is a huge aid to the rest of the community.
  
• The lack of macros and/or mouse over targeting makes things more tedious.
  
• Target of target is a universal feature in MMOs. This game doesn't have it.
  
• The lack of add-on support means the community can't find solutions for the more tedious or distasteful components of the game (like the current GCD issue).
  

 

TOR could be a great game. Bioware has a good foundation for success. However, the frustration level at end game is too high for many of us. Re-rolling alts isn't going to hold my attention forever. This game needs many quality of life improvements to retain its subscription base over the long term.

[Jellison]

Oh, lookie. Another thread proclaiming for the 2536th time that the endgame sucks.

 

Repetition. Did you even check to see if there was another thread expressing the same-What am I saying? Of course you didn't.