VladMorbius Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Really, you find it odd that a traditional MMO contains traditional MMO gameplay mechanics? That's like saying it's odd that you can still fire guns in first person shooters. First off, what is traditional by your opinion is not traditional to all MMO players. I played AC for 10 years and there was no raiding or forced grouping for gear. There are many ways end game can be done it just sad that so many people have absolutely no other bar to measure their experience from other than WoW and other raid or die games. Regardless, with that said I also do not like raiding as the only way to progress my character and certainly not the only way to get high level gear or have it as the only meaningful style of content when a character is maxed. That is just lazy development and it is a trend that really needs to change. Not all games need to be this limiting and it is why I will likely jump to GW2 if there is no change of direction in STWoR in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BMBender Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) They could have done so much more with them by adding some very unforgiving mechanice that require perfect execution instead of just less forgiving enrage and more HP's. I blame EA/Mythic Edited February 16, 2012 by BMBender Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSwamper Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 My preference would have been NO PVE whatsoever in this game. I want each planet to have it's own warzones, and you go to a planet to play the warzones that are there. If you go to Hutta, then you play huttball or whatever else. That's fair. I think it's equally fair to say that if this MMO had no PvE whatsoever, sales would be much, much less. My point is that a heavy PvE game always seems to have lame PvP, or vice versa. I wish the developers would stop trying to be everything to everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gleneagle Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Your telling me it didn't happen because my description is inaccurate....So you know what MY experience was like? This is my opinion of how the raid went, it can't be inaccurate. It's an opinion. ... In fact subjective recollection of an individual experience differs in nature from opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gleneagle Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) First off, what is traditional by your opinion is not traditional to all MMO players. I played AC for 10 years and there was no raiding or forced grouping for gear. There are many ways end game can be done it just sad that so many people have absolutely no other bar to measure their experience from other than WoW and other raid or die games. Regardless, with that said I also do not like raiding as the only way to progress my character and certainly not the only way to get high level gear or have it as the only meaningful style of content when a character is maxed. That is just lazy development and it is a trend that really needs to change. Not all games need to be this limiting and it is why I will likely jump to GW2 if there is no change of direction in STWoR in the future. Not pointing this explicitly at you, Vlad, but to all who rely on the nature of personal opinion as a shelter from fact, reasoning, and argumentation. As a people we gamers should really try and move away from reliance on the idea that having a personal opinion protects us from having to support our assertions with facts and sound reasoning. It is not sufficient, nor is it productive, to presume any authentic opinion is equal to any other authentic opinion. Relativism only goes so far. There are such things as fact and logic. Saying something is your opinion informs nobody of anything: We already know it is your opinion and that you feel the merit of your opinion is equal to anyone's. The sad fact is that your opinion may not be equal to someone else's. The professional opinion of an expert is always more credible than the unsupported opinion of an unqualified amateur. What is true is that even an amateur's opinion, when adequately supported by fact, outweighs that of an incorrect authority. As for rhetoric: fact, unlike policy, is not subject to democracy. Edited February 16, 2012 by Gleneagle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muskaan Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 It's extremely easy to hate something which you don't know anything about. @OP - you have absolutely no idea what raiding is all about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VladMorbius Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Not pointing this explicitly at you, Vlad, but to all who rely on the nature of personal opinion as a shelter from fact, reasoning, and argumentation. As a people we gamers should really try and move away from reliance on the idea that having a personal opinion protects us from having to support our assertions with facts and sound reasoning. It is not sufficient, nor is it productive, to presume any authentic opinion is equal to any other authentic opinion. Relativism only goes so far. There are such things as fact and logic. Saying something is your opinion informs nobody of anything: We already know it is your opinion and that you feel the merit of your opinion is equal to anyone's. The sad fact is that your opinion may not be equal to someone else's. The professional opinion of an expert is always more credible than the unsupported opinion of an unqualified amateur. What is true is that even an amateur's opinion, when adequately supported by fact, outweighs that of an incorrect authority. As for rhetoric: fact, unlike policy, is not subject to democracy. I fail to see exactly what in my post was not factual. Fact, I’m a long time MMO player and my opinion of traditional does differ from his. Fact, I don’t like raiding. Fact, I played AC for 10 years and it did not have raids. Fact, many players do not have experience beyond games like WoW. Fact, there are games that have other paths of progression at max level AC being only one example. Fact, at this stage the only way to acquire max gear is through raiding. Fact, I will be moving along if ToR does not move down a different path. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miliways Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) A lot of people love them and that's cool - to each his own. However, I HATE THEM. The whole idea of a raid is just tank takes damage and taunts again & again, dps classes do damage again & again, healers heal again & again. That's it. There's no curve balls, no real "thinking" involved, it's mindless button clicking to get the awezome lootz..... so you can do it all again and get the awezomer lootz.... to do it again, to get even awesomerer lootz.... and on and on you go.\ Sounds like somebody has never raided before. I can assure you that TOR raids have TONS of curve-balls. They have all kinds of thinking and planning involved, you have to learn each boss' mechanics and respond to them. Definitely NOT JUST TANK n SPANK. Maybe 1 fight in all of EV could be called tank n spank, the first fight. Because, you know, they didn't want the FIRST fight to be ridiculously hard. Its a warm-up, to get your raid team going. The rest of the bosses all have lots going on. SOA is one of the coolest raid encounters I've ever done. (Buggy, sure, but they'll fix that in time) You're talking out your ***. Go raid. Its mad fun. They did a really good job. Boss fights are intense, require co-ordination and responding to different boss mechanics, and there is lots of variety between the bosses. EV was better than any MMO raid I've done, and the environment was just beautiful. Maybe TRY something before you declare that it sucks and you hate it. I WILL NOT EAT GREEN EGGS AND HAM! Edited February 16, 2012 by miliways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miliways Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I have done them. How else could I hate it? I haven't done all of them, but that's what my experience was like for the ones I did do. Are you talking about Operations (raids) or Flashpoints (dungeons) ?? Sounds like you're complaining about flashpoints instead of raids... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KittyPrawn Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I've never felt that PvP took any more thought than PvE. I know a lot of people think that playing another person makes for an unpredictable experience. But, if you PvP long enough, you find out that there are actually a very limited number of choice a person can make.... and the average person is very predictable in these choices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 A lot of people love them and that's cool - to each his own. However, I HATE THEM. The whole idea of a raid is just tank takes damage and taunts again & again, dps classes do damage again & again, healers heal again & again. That's it. There's no curve balls, no real "thinking" involved, it's mindless button clicking to get the awezome lootz..... so you can do it all again and get the awezomer lootz.... to do it again, to get even awesomerer lootz.... and on and on you go. Based on your "understanding" you've actually never raided. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elbrop Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I understand that you dont like the WoW formula of raiding but you're making a big mistake here. SWTOR raids are nothing like it. There is more mobility and teamwork involved. You really should try them since they put blizzard to shame. In all honest, at this point you dont know what you're talking about. That's some beautiful denial in the face of reality. +5 fanboy points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deathnasty Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I have done them. How else could I hate it? I haven't done all of them, but that's what my experience was like for the ones I did do. obviouly didnt do kraggas palace then, or pylons where you dont even use tanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 why is "the games only been out for X # months" considered a valid argument? Are they or are they not competeing in the market as it is today? Not what some game did sometime 8+ years ago i'm guessing you didn't play cata when it first came out and everything was cleared in a month... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lethality Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 i'm guessing you didn't play cata when it first came out and everything was cleared in a month... While disappointing, that is A LOT different than a brand new MMO with 50 levels and a gearing up process to clear the top end, all of which was done in a matter of weeks in TOR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gleneagle Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) I fail to see exactly what in my post was not factual. Fact, I’m a long time MMO player and my opinion of traditional does differ from his. Fact, I don’t like raiding. Fact, I played AC for 10 years and it did not have raids. Fact, many players do not have experience beyond games like WoW. Fact, there are games that have other paths of progression at max level AC being only one example. Fact, at this stage the only way to acquire max gear is through raiding. Fact, I will be moving along if ToR does not move down a different path. I wasn't talking about your post specifically, but about people relying on Opinion. I did not mean your post was unsupported by fact, but that throughout the thread people are using the idea that everyone has no more than subjective opinion, and urging that we try and move away from that and toward a state where facts have real value that supercedes personal opinion. If everyone's opinion is equal and facts are given no more weight than opinion then there is no way to reach a practical conclusion in the conversation. Without being able to reach a conclusion expending these bodily exhaust functions at each other serves no purpose. We need a black bisector. Edited February 16, 2012 by Gleneagle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiam Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 I did all the pve raiding I could stand in WoW, I will never do that again. Doing scripted pve over and over and over for years was boring as ****. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 While disappointing, that is A LOT different than a brand new MMO with 50 levels and a gearing up process to clear the top end, all of which was done in a matter of weeks in TOR. No, the point is the last release of WoW had a TON less content in it than SWTOR had at release. SWTOR endgame is very competitive compared to any of the releases blizzard has put out at this time in their life. Hell, 90% of the raid content right after the release of wrath was retuned 3 year old content! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gokkus Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Cant find a group eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiam Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 why is "the games only been out for X # months" considered a valid argument? Are they or are they not competeing in the market as it is today? Not what some game did sometime 8+ years ago Exactly, It's 2012. When an mmo comes out they know they have to have the content to compete with WoW. Rift did it, I don't see how BW are exempt from having content because the game just came out. They had YEARS, and last year a whole year of "polish". There's no excuse for a game to come out half a**ed these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceperson Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 There's no excuse for a game to come out half a**ed these days. yet that's exactly what you got if you bought cata, wrath, or burning crusade and pom looks to be more of the same with pandas and pokemon... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jederix Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 My thoughts are the raids are bug ridden and need some fixes, we need more raids, and if you like fair and competitive PvP, MMO's are not the place to find it. In my experience, people who look to MMOs for their PvP fix are looking for anything but "fair and competitive." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jederix Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Exactly, It's 2012. When an mmo comes out they know they have to have the content to compete with WoW. Rift did it, I don't see how BW are exempt from having content because the game just came out. They had YEARS, and last year a whole year of "polish". There's no excuse for a game to come out half a**ed these days. If you compare "relevant" content between WoW and SW:TOR (regarding raids and pvp), the two are about equal (WoW's pvp is a bit more fleshed out, but they have had 7 years to do it). No one does that, though, do they. They compare everything from Vanilla to Cata and expect a brand new game to have that much content, nevermind that everything except the current raid tier is completely irrelevant, visited now only because of transmogrification. Sorry, but no game will ever live up to your expectations if you keep comparing a new game to a 7 year old game. Ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gleneagle Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Exactly, It's 2012. When an mmo comes out they know they have to have the content to compete with WoW. Rift did it, I don't see how BW are exempt from having content because the game just came out. They had YEARS, and last year a whole year of "polish". There's no excuse for a game to come out half a**ed these days. Hm. You aren't Bill Gates, either, and you are both living in 2012. What does that make you? Given SWTOR is making enough money to stay afloat, and that means enough players play it, then it is almost irrelevant that both games are in the world at the same time. Otherwise the significant competition between WoW and SWTOR is within each player. If in your value system WoW wins, and you don't drop SWTOR and fail to go back to WoW, then you are the loser. Those of us who consider that SWTOR is new and count that as significant in our evaluations will stay for our own reasons and according to our own values, not yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustTed Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 (edited) Your telling me it didn't happen because my description is inaccurate....So you know what MY experience was like? This is my opinion of how the raid went, it can't be inaccurate. It's an opinion. Yeah... The whole idea of a raid is just tank takes damage and taunts again & again, dps classes do damage again & again, healers heal again & again See, this is false. It's not being stated as an opinion, you're saying "raids are like so." They're not, which leads me to say "You haven't raided much or at all." Edited February 16, 2012 by JustTed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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