Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Kywan]

I love ellements of sandbox for longevity aslo, the few fans they have are usually die hard.

It's nearly impossible to add in exploration when the maps are so channeled, customization and personal property cant be droped in because it has to be coded into the game at the outset.

Game developers shoot for the subscriptions, try and make a profit on their investment then taper off efforts according to the population.

I wish we could have more of an active role in the planets, war and universe aswell, but it just wont happen, what will happen is more of the same to try and appease players as long as they can.

More dungeons, more controlled pvp, more loot, I wish it could be different but Bioware cant change the direction now.

I thought the stories and voice overs really made the game special, but at level 50 most people I know are gone and I'm not motivated to run dailies.

[VegaPhone]

I love ellements of sandbox for longevity aslo, the few fans they have are usually die hard.

It's nearly impossible to add in exploration when the maps are so channeled, customization and personal property cant be droped in because it has to be coded into the game at the outset.

Game developers shoot for the subscriptions, try and make a profit on their investment then taper off efforts according to the population.

I wish we could have more of an active role in the planets, war and universe aswell, but it just wont happen, what will happen is more of the same to try and appease players as long as they can.

More dungeons, more controlled pvp, more loot, I wish it could be different but Bioware cant change the direction now.

I thought the stories and voice overs really made the game special, but at level 50 most people I know are gone and I'm not motivated to run dailies.

 

It can happen.

 

Bring up any issue and there is a possible solution to it.

 

No place to have sand box elements? Put it on the outside of the already developed areas, while in the meanwhile develop the middle areas which are normally open world anyways to have objectives.

[symke]

Maybe me being non english, but what the hell is "theme park game" and what is "sandbox game"? What are differences between them?

[Goretzu]

Guild Wars is worse. Very linear game and no crafting or such extra-curricular activities at all. Nevertheless, it is a game I enjoy immensely.

 

Maybe, but GW model was very different, you can expect a lot less from a non-subscription game, to pay a month sub for a game where nothing ever changes and you have no real influence over anything is rather different.

 

 

 

For me, I think a mix of both can be a good thing too, but I don't want things forced on me, or feel forced into a certain playstyle (kinda defeats the sandbox purpose, doesn't it?). As Sand said, a game like Eve is not going to be everyone's cup of tea - many players need some hand-holding during their adventures, and a true sandbox does not offer that. More often than not, players will wander around aimlessly wondering what to do, get frustrated/bored and leave. Plus, with crafting systems, you have the potential of players feeling forced they need to buy stuff from other players if the system is not designed to give them enough choices in which to acquire something they want by the means they most prefer. If I want to get an white color crystal for my Lightsaber, I don't want the only option to do so be from a player-crated source - I want options to buy them from a high-end vendor, or find them in the wild. Having more choices in a game is always a good thing - including the choice to play with sandbox features, but those choices should not be forced on players who do not want them.

 

BJ

 

It's like the Elder Scrolls games.

 

If you ever played Arena - The Elder Scrolls, you'd remember that it was one of the most massive and sandboxy games ever (certainy then, even now it's generated landscape is huge).

 

As that series has progressed they've added more and more "themepark" (if you will) to it's sandbox, but still retained a lot of the orginal.

 

They've IMO managed to retain a balance and largely progress the series in a good way.

 

 

But imagine if they'd taken it to the extreme of something like a FPS with swords, it wouldn't be the same thing at all, although it might have a great story to play through the corridor levels once or twice..

 

SWTOR is an MMORPG like that, it's the polar opposite of it's SW predecessor SWG. SWG's failings and weaknesses in many ways were that it maybe had too much freedom (although I think probably it was as much SoE making bad decisions - not having Jedi then trying to fudge them in because unsuprisingly people want them just seems like no one really thought about things properly)........ but SWTORs is very much that you have no freedom at all.

 

A game somewhere in the middle is almost bound to be better than either....... and with the right additions SWTOR could still be that game.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Goretzu

[Isgrimnir]

I do love the story quest line a lot, it gives you a real immersion in to the game and the fact that they are different for each class. I must admit that I would miss that in a true sandbox type game. However, there is much to be said for an open way of character creation and development, aside from the standard classes. Then use the holo network to generate quests to do based on particular skills that a player has. It is probably technically not very simple to do and I am certain that it may be a dog of the female persuasion to balance PvP if people can just mix and match, but as a fervent roleplayer I think it would give great liberty to character creation and in my case an even greater fondness of a character. The hardest part I think when it comes to sandbox is keeping people interested, they need things they can achieve. Just doing mindless quests time and again, daily grind, well it is not for me. But think of carving out your own emporium somewhere on an outer rim moon. You can do it slow and by yourself, or make a guild and do it faster. Actually build things up. Player created content, including quests. I know it all sounds ambitious but hey.. if you can not dream it, you can not have it.

 

Blessed Be

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

To me sandbox elements would mean that the worlds are constantly changing and somehow have a life of their own, similiar to GTA4, Red Dead Redemption or GW2.

 

This includes planets with day/night/weather/season change and NPCs doing different things than just standing around, waiting to be killed. Also there need to be world events and a progressing time line, all of this is not present and the worlds are timefrozen in eternity - therefore the Rakghoul event was a refreshing glimpse on what in fact should happen permanently and in an unexpected and dynamic way.

"Dynamic" is the magic word here, like GW2 does it. If a village gets destroyed, well it´s gone, at least until it´s rebuilt.

 

Also if you went over the planet maps once, there is nothing to see which changes, which makes ALTs pretty boring and a chore. Imagine different seasons, or running through Tattooine at night, with animals behaving differently and guards off duty.. Sandpeople sitting around fireplaces outside their tents, all of that would already feel pretty "sandboxy" (less static, more realistic) to me.

And if there are non instanced housing zones, where the exhaustion zones start at the moment, that would be a great sandboxy touch to the game.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[VegaPhone]

To me sandbox elements would mean that the worlds are constantly changing and somehow have a life of their own, similiar to GTA4, Red Dead Redemption or GW2.

 

This includes planets with day/night/weather/season change and NPCs doing different things than just standing around, waiting to be killed. Also there need to be world events and a progressing time line, all of this is not present and the worlds are timefrozen in eternity - therefore the Rakghoul event was a refreshing glimpse on what in fact should happen permanently and in an unexpected and dynamic way.

"Dynamic" is the magic word here, like GW2 does it. If a village gets destroyed, well it´s gone, at least until it´s rebuilt.

 

Also if you went over the planet maps once, there is nothing to see which changes, which makes ALTs pretty boring and a chore. Imagine different seasons, or running through Tattooine at night, with animals behaving differently and guards off duty.. Sandpeople sitting around fireplaces outside their tents, all of that would already feel pretty "sandboxy" (less static, more realistic) to me.

And if there are non instanced housing zones, where the exhaustion zones start at the moment, that would be a great sandboxy touch to the game.

 

I agree, but I personally want the personal housing to also include siege warfare.

 

There are many ways to do this and one way;

 

Have everyone be able to own titles to land, so personal housing is not an issue, however certain titles offer different perks and a person can lose their home in guild cities which offer access to special resources, and other special benefits. There can be housing in buildings, or in areas which are not of interest for guild warefare but still have open world pvp flagging, and in game events.

 

Then open world and guild cities have the housing which can be lost;

 

For example lets say the open world map had objectives, and certain objectives when captured affected on how the open world can be won by scaling NPCs with different buffs, adding more different NPCs and possibly directing NPCs on a different path. In the open world pvp these armies will help to win against a guild city that also has direct access to rare resources, private housing with special vendors, special NCPs that add to defense and the roaming army from objective to objective, and the way they can do it is, lets say the objectives take a certain amount of time to capture them all before reaching a guild city (there can be many guild cities) and once all the points are captured before attacking the guild city, it sets a time to open attack on the castle.

 

At prime time of that day, the opposing faction can attack the guild city. However, they can have negotiations to surrender for a price to avoid being attacked.

 

Crafting;

 

There has to be a point in all these attacks, and crafting is a big motivator, but also there has to be a motivator to crafting as well. So the part of the motivation to craft is to have the siege equipment, and the many items used during the warfare only gathered through the rare resources and produced by the appropriate crafts to make them and win these wars and generate a lot of profit to spend it on other items like space ships, guild ships, a large castle in a safe planet etc

 

This is fun, and already a great aspect to the game if something like this is introduced, but there has to be more thought put into this.

 

For example what happens when all guild cities on a planet are conquered? Do people lose all thier land titles? Even the ones that are not part of the guild cities? Does it change the look of the map, and the borders change? OR does the land appear different and the oppsing faction remaining actual in game bases for questing look damaged? Does the regular resource cost more or are in less supply? Is there more violence in the npc areas, and for example a quest giver gets robbed and it changes the quest to add more quests for the same rewards, or the same quest for less rewards. etc etc

 

Is there a political system in place as well on the planets... for example Alderaan?

 

 

edit: Also BW failed to make thier MMO from the beginning since something like this to properly work needs either to be toned in the right way which means a lot more careful planning which years of development could have easily have provided and having a themepark with a seperate economy and a sandbox with a different end game, and possible droppale items economy which used a bolster system for any lvl to play in.

 

Or implemented a system that was rigorous in achievements in the few months of development that they have now, and hope that whatever population is left will make it work and attract people who are having a negative impression of the pvp, and open world of the game. However, with hype and marketing they can attract people, but it takes time to make...

 

And ideas like this have been suggested on the swtor forums from a long long time ago. The devs here dont have the resources to either make the game as a full MMO with different open world pvp ideas, or they dont want to make a game beyond the safe WoW formula.

 

edit: Also one something like this if implemented its easy to add to, and adds a lot of replay-ability to the game. There can be huge rewards which takes time to get, for example saving up for a personal castle in a safe planet. Instead of something that is a grind for hardcore players in Ops, or Warzones. Open world pvp offers a place for crafters, and the casual players to participate in large scale combat. Maybe the problem was the **** engine that they chose.

Edited May 11, 2012 by VegaPhone

[Dreossk]

Maybe me being non english, but what the hell is "theme park game" and what is "sandbox game"? What are differences between them?

 

Theme park is like this game, you go through the content in a specific order and worlds and linear, straightforward and you can't go out and explore. You have little to no liberty in the game.

 

Sandbox is like UO or SWG if you played it when it came out. No order, you can do anything anytime with no real limit. It also gives a feeling of living in the world instead of playing in a dead world like SWTOR, where everything is frozen and there is no life in cities.

 

Dunno if it can be changed but I doubt it because of the reputation of the devs being so lazy and their communication department being really bad and full of liars. Come back in a year or two if the game is still around.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Dreossk

[burnsyy]

tbh this game swtor should of been a bit of both a bit of theme park and a bit of sand box that is the next gen MMO's and this game should of been one of them

 

but still BW still have time to change there minds and make it half and half time will soon tell us

am also not really happy with what we got and adding a group finder isnt going to do jack tbh we need more on the sandbox side atm full theme pack is outdated and old

Edited May 11, 2012 by burnsyy

[thominoh]

tbh this game swtor should of been a bit of both a bit of theme park and a bit of sand box that is the next gen MMO's and this game should of been one of them

 

but still BW still have time to change there minds and make it half and half time will soon tell us

 

It would have to be a full scale all hands on deck 1.3 content patch.. but TBH, I don't think they have the skill to actually design it.. IF they did, we wouldn't be playing WoW 2.0 as it is.... I can't believe they spent 100 million plus over 5 years making a WoW clone..

[burnsyy]

It would have to be a full scale all hands on deck 1.3 content patch.. but TBH, I don't think they have the skill to actually design it.. IF they did, we wouldn't be playing WoW 2.0 as it is.... I can't believe they spent 100 million plus over 5 years making a WoW clone..

 

nono not a wow clone but a wow low cost budget

 

but on all notes here BW needs to start acting NOW come on BW listen to the community and dont say you are because your not ok you pulled DA3 Dev team to help with this game to fix bugs and add content insted of doing that why not just change the game to sandbox/theme park u do that and that will MAKE alot of money of it because this is what we want and this is the next-gen mmo

Edited May 11, 2012 by burnsyy

[Spankyjnco]

is that why every sandbox MMO fails miserably?

 

You call Everquest and Ultima Online a failure? WoW was the first REAL successful themepark MMO. It's continued success is because of all the kiddies it appealed to and ease of learning curve that got millions of people to actually TRY out a MMO for the first time.

 

Everyone always goes back to their first real MMO, so it is no surprise that WoW stays a giant among MMOs, because when it came out, is around the time that MMO's were actually picking up speed, and the amount of people it drew to the genre, many of which were first time MMOers, caused them to only scale higher and higher in sales and subscriptions.

 

If you look at WoW's sales model, WoW has several people that come back 2-3 times a year to play a little, only to realise it is still the same game and eventually quit again. Out of the poles and studies that people have done on the forums, it is a fact that majority of the people that re-subbed, did so because WoW was the first MMO they really played, and you can never replace that kind of sparkle a MMO gives off with your first one. My first? Ultima online. I got back at least once a year. I played about 6 MMO's before I touched wow. Was immediately turned off by the linear gameplay, and the ease of play. The lack of true diversity and skill got me to quit playing it way before my first 30 days were up.

 

I gave the account to a friend and dusted my hands off. Close to 6 years later, I haven't ever looked back. I just see the result of it's success on every MMO I turn to. You can never kill MMOs that have a big base of "first timers". It is impossible.

[Spankyjnco]

nono not a wow clone but a wow low cost budget

 

but on all notes here BW needs to start acting NOW come on BW listen to the community and dont say you are because your not ok you pulled DA3 Dev team to help with this game to fix bugs and add content insted of doing that why not just change the game to sandbox/theme park u do that and that will MAKE alot of money of it because this is what we want and this is the next-gen mmo

 

300 Million+

[burnsyy]

300 Million+

 

nah they pocked most of it

[Syadasti]

Maybe me being non english, but what the hell is "theme park game" and what is "sandbox game"? What are differences between them?

Themepark = you walk a given Way from beginnig to end. For MMOs this mean following a questline or having mutiple questzones that bring you from level 1 to max level. WoW is the biggest themepark MMo aut there

sandbox= players are left more or less alone. there may be quests that players can find, but "no one takes your hand", maybe leveling is also possible by other things, like crafting or it is just an giant grind game (just killing mobs to level up). It is sometimes also possible that there is no level progressing in this game. EVE Online is a big sandbox game, but it is not an RPG, it is more a simulated economic in space, sorry can´t explain this better.

 

----

@Topic: i don´t think that ANY game in the world ever can repeat the success of WoW. WoW was massivly hyped, had big Names with Warcraft and espacilly Blizzard back in 2004. Times had changed sine since, to much wow-killer-games had annouced and failed. People are tired of this. and people are getting tired of the item-loop diablo and wow had make to an standard in MMOs. People want new things but fears changes. Guild Wars 1 was sold 6 mio times over the last 6 years.

 

So i think a hybrid-modell would work out the best, but its hard to make something really good. You would need an more than stable crafting, an themepark levelway and a "sandbox-alternate for this, a sandbox endgame with instances for PvP and PvE. and to top of that all, you have the item-loop-problem. WoW trained his players so much with the skinnerbox, that´s becoming very hard to not going this way. Without new gear tier sets every few months some people (how much percent this really are i can´t say) will find doing the hard content pointless, witha continual increasing of the stats, old content became outdated and people feel to be forced to get the better gear, what caused complaining if they don´t like raids/instances but have no other way to get the items (feeling of beeing less *worth* to the devs/community), if the can grind/craft that gear, the instance-fans complaining aboput not beeing elite enough and that´s pointless to run raids.

 

GW2 try to not gear-loop the game, if it will work well for the endgame, we will see in 6 Months after launch. People are sometimes funny in what they want and want they really want (= thinking what would be a good game and what kind of games they really playing at the end). How Arthur Schopenhauer has said:

Der Mensch kann zwar tun, was er will, aber er kann nicht wollen, was er will.

(google-translation: "Man can indeed do what he wants, but he can not want what he wants." hope that´s fit.)

[ConradLionhart]

Personally, I do like sandbox. I liked the sandbox nature of games like Eve Online and Mount & Blade. I just don't believe sandbox MMOs can become a great success to rival WoW.

 

If you want sandbox in this game, an expanded companion system can be a great idea.

[thominoh]

Personally, I do like sandbox. I liked the sandbox nature of games like Eve Online and Mount & Blade. I just don't believe sandbox MMOs can become a great success to rival WoW.

 

If you want sandbox in this game, an expanded companion system can be a great idea.

 

I agree a pure sandbox is not a good market $$$ game.. it's just too hardcore niche.. However, I hybrid of such I think can work quite well..... WoW along with all the clones since (TOR is a clone) are just too linear to play.. Atleast WoW had multiple starting zones and paths which to level in.. But Rift, and TOR.. there is only one path, and one path only.. The replayablity is horrid... What I would like to see is more dynamic zones, class development and leveling.. Who wants to play a cookie cutter game for more then 6 months? not I..

[dynastynyy]

is that why every sandbox MMO fails miserably?

 

Eve Online failed miserably?

 

Also, SWG's sandbox elements arent what made it fail, it was Lucas' greed.

[mattgyver]

Eve Online failed miserably?

 

Also, SWG's sandbox elements arent what made it fail, it was Lucas' greed.

 

disregard the Sandboxes fail argument, it doesn't apply to this situation.

[Syadasti]

I agree a pure sandbox is not a good market $$$ game.. it's just too hardcore niche.. However, I hybrid of such I think can work quite well..... WoW along with all the clones since (TOR is a clone) are just too linear to play.. Atleast WoW had multiple starting zones and paths which to level in.. But Rift, and TOR.. there is only one path, and one path only.. The replayablity is horrid... What I would like to see is more dynamic zones, class development and leveling.. Who wants to play a cookie cutter game for more then 6 months? not I..

i think, that´s the point. and i think it is too late to change things here.

a levelpath where you had to choose, sandboxing endgame or atleast an endgame beyond OP/FP grind for gear or daily gear for credits.... WoW had back in BC a entry zone what was formed by players by doing daily quests. Yes, completly scriped, but it was fun to see "something change".

 

Bigger levelplanets would be nice with an option to choose between 2 or 3 so the second character don´t see the same again, class-storys could be fixed be level (same story on all planets to choose of, so nothing is missed). starting-Planet by class (level 1-10) -> fraction planet (10-20) -> choose between A, B or C (all 20-28) -> Choose between D, E or F (29-36) choose between G, H or I (37-45) - Correlia (46-50)-> Illum (endgame). Or maybe make corelia the endgame PvE (with all daily quests) and Ilum the PvP-planet by increasing the levels by planet and gained by the intermezzos between the acts. Act 1 would include fraction Planet + the choosen one from a-c; act 2 would be shorter and just the second choosen planet + a longer intermezzo, act 3 would be the rest.

This would need 17 planets, there are 17 Planets right now in the game. But it´s to late to change it now.

 

Maybe we will see some improvements to endgame during the next 12 months, but nothing in the near future.

[Blazenor]

I think some people think that Sandbox MMOs are greater than Theme Park MMOs, but I believe that one is not better than the other just different. What MMO players do crave is something that is in between the two genre of MMOs.

 

1. A world that is non-static but with define direction, however this does not mean being guide by the hand

2. Huge customization on all levels of gameplay

3. Decisions made by players that has a real impact to the environment

4. Well define endgame, but with huge amount of choices on what they are

[Goretzu]

Personally, I do like sandbox. I liked the sandbox nature of games like Eve Online and Mount & Blade. I just don't believe sandbox MMOs can become a great success to rival WoW.

 

If you want sandbox in this game, an expanded companion system can be a great idea.

 

 

 

 

Mount and Blade is an excellent example.

 

An indy game with the best melee combat system around.

 

And it's sold loads for a fairly simple and unhyped game.

 

 

But then imagine Mount and Blade with all it had AND a serious RPG back end (or a MMORPG back end). Nirvana.

 

 

 

But instead everyone is trying to remake WoW and unsurprisingly people don't want that....... and again NOTHING will likely ever rival WoW subs...... but if anything does it will not be a remake of WoW with a different skin.

 

 

 

Games like Warhammer Online didn't fail because they "weren't WoW", they failed because they were release far too early in an unfit state - WAR simply wasn't fit fo purpose at release - and in WARs case had their developement budget destroyed before it was even released (no dungeon or zone was ever developed for WAR post release - even LOTD was 90% done before the game went Live) - now SWTOR has definately suffered from being released too early, but still it was in a much better state than WAR or AoC when released.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Goretzu

[Darth_Moonshadow]

Eve Online failed miserably?

 

Also, SWG's sandbox elements arent what made it fail, it was Lucas' greed.

 

Eve Online is boring.

 

Seriously. It is. It's designed to be that way.

 

Don't believe me? The article itself!

 

Is that not the weirdest thing?

[Zephrus]

I love the character main quest line. That is a "theme-park" like feature. Having said that, I think the main issue with my continuing this game is lack of solo end game content. Adding more sandbox-like features will increase end-game content and enhance replay and RP viability.

 

Features like:

 

Player housing.

Improved crafting. Dropping the strange and unworkable "you can't craft but your minions can, but they all have the same skill as you".

World PVP that actually changes control of areas and means something.

A player crafting-based economy.

Player-initiated quests.

Tamable pets.

Stronger guild support with guild ships, housing and alliances/wars.

Space fleet actions.

Integration of space and land game with landing, blockade and evacuation actions.

Piracy.

Convoys.

Critical wounds which require either like a day or a week in the bacta tank or cybernetic replacement (like Luke and Anakin).

Support for player-made cinematics and machinima.

GM ingame events, something more thoughtful than now you have a disease, and will explode. If you could actually play a rakghoul till killed that would be cool.

Other forms of player associations in addition to guilds, such as cults, criminal syndicates, neutral organizations.

Rewards for grey Jedi/Sith.

Stronger RP support with weddings, funerals, wars, treaties and the like.

Space exploration.

Planets with semi-randomly generated terrain and settlements and monsters.

Space trade routes, a big feature of the lore.

 

Just some ideas. I don't think its so much a matter of theme park versus sandbox as incorporating the best elements of both.

 

And no, I never played SWG, though I'm really sorry I didn't play pre- Combat Upgrade and pre-NGE. It sounds like it had many of the features I feel like this game could benefit from. This game IMO borrows a lot from DCUO (strangely enough), so why not borrow from a game which was so beloved and had such high replay value and solid community?

Edited May 11, 2012 by Zephrus

[Goretzu]

Eve Online is boring.

 

Seriously. It is. It's designed to be that way.

 

Don't believe me? The article itself!

 

Is that not the weirdest thing?

 

 

That's the thing though a "sand box" game doesn't have to be like EvE (never mind a Hybrid Theme-sand-park-box game ).

 

It's like saying all cars (Themeparks) are the same. When although they might be different from motorbikes (Sandboxes) they are at least as different from each other in one extreme to the other. Then somewhere in-between Car and Motorbikes even pretty much meet.

 

You can have a casual "sandbox" game (like Minecraft) and you can have a massively hardcore one (like EvE), you can have casual and hardcore "themepark" games too.

 

 

 

But in SWTORs case...... the current game with a great RvR zone bolted on (think with a

SW Skin! ) and a

or

type space expansion........ how could that NOT be better than the current game?