Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[Goretzu]

9 years and only at 400k? Dude, I really think EA aims higher than that. 400k is niche.

 

The best you can hope for is a themepark with sandbox elements, not a full blown sandbox game. Pitch in ideas for space sandbox.

 

 

 

Any game that has 400,000+ have 9 years is doing well.

 

Especially given it's launch date.

[Anosa]

i will always be a fan of sandbox games

[Blurps]

Players vote with their wallets and the results of a good 10 years of MMO history are very conclusive. Edited May 8, 2012 by Blurps

[Sectix]

The interesting thing about SWTOR is that it could be either. The design of disconnected planets can be discouraging, or it could be turned into an advantage with a sandbox planet. They can do anything they want really and it fits because you have completely independent planets, and there is nothing broken about that it is space and that's how it's laid out.

[Dezzi]

The lack of even just a few sandbox elements is a detriment to this game. It needs to provide players something to do while they aren't waiting in line for the next ride.

[Neloth]

If TOR has proved ONE thing it is that a pure themepark mmo won't cut it anymore, despite the superb quality of TOR it just won't cut it. This is because players will burn through content faster than the devs can make it, especially so in TOR where content is so high quality compared to the rest of mmos.

 

The only solution to this as I see it is to make end-game heavily sandbox inspired, with that I mean:

- Conquestable land, some "RvR" or some incarnation of it

. Owning land gives you resource income, bragging rights, status and all that, which is needed as incentive to take land from others, it can be other players for PvP or raid mobs for PvE, preferrably both

- Owning the best PvP land takes guilds to cooperate, PvE land can be a "poor mans" land for getting some low quality land

. With those resources you can produce houses/structures/skyscrapers/siege weapons, whatever to consume said resources

- Crafting lends itself to the sandbox way, let players specialize in components other players need to make stuff

- Crafting needs to be heavilty customizble, craftng in TOR today is very static, every artifact shield generator I make I know someone else makes the exact same thing and will probably just undercut me. I hate to bring up SWG (it's dead, John) but it's crafting was good. Eve crafting also is good, too complex for most, but good inspiration

 

I like TOR, I want it to do better, but the LvL 50 Wall is too much for many, we need to empower the player at end-game, of course in addition to a few raids, flashpoints and warzones as we find them today. The level up experience as it is now is very good and fits well to learn the players the game, mechanics and lore.

 

One thing about the combat I think could make it more fun is less skill hotbars, more positioning and tactic, GW2 and Tera are doing quite well in that regard and I think it could work well for TOR. Have few base skills that combined with uprades under certain conditions give increased effects.

 

Just my 2 cents on the matter.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Neloth

[Goretzu]

The interesting thing about SWTOR is that it could be either. The design of disconnected planets can be discouraging, or it could be turned into an advantage with a sandbox planet. They can do anything they want really and it fits because you have completely independent planets, and there is nothing broken about that it is space and that's how it's laid out.

 

Exactly.

 

 

An RvR planet? No problem.

 

A sandbox planet with housing? No problem.

 

A minecraft planet where you can redesign the world? Ok a bit of a problem, but frankly possible.

[ferroz]

If TOR has proved ONE thing it is that a pure themepark mmo won't cut it anymore, despite the superb quality of TOR it just won't cut it. This is because players will burn through content faster than the devs can make it, especially so in TOR where content is so high quality compared to the rest of mmos.

The idea that the quality of the content is better than other themepark mmos (let alone significantly better) is laughable at best.

[Neloth]

The idea that the quality of the content is better than other themepark mmos (let alone significantly better) is laughable at best.

 

From your perspective perhaps, I've been around the block a few times and TOR's content is better than anything any other have ever made. (IMO )

[BJWyler]

PAt least with sandbox elements, I know if I log off, my player-run city or base might not be there when I come back and I may have a task ahead of me helping the rebuild. While some players don't like this approach, I do. It adds unpredictability and investment in your game. Something I just don't get with SWTOR.

 

Do you perchance play Stronghold: Kingdoms? I Alpha tested that game, and while it was great fun and a pretty smooth experience for an Alpha, the very thing you mention here is as big turn-off. Gone are the days of the catasser and poopsocker. In a general sense, gamers do not want to have to feel tied to a game 24/7 in order to enjoy it. The times have changed and the industry has matured because gamers (relatively speaking) have matured. Having some sandboxing is nice, but the kind you have depends on the game itself, and it should never prevent players from progressing through the game at the pace that they feel most comfortable with.

 

BJ

[Mallorik]

If TOR has proved ONE thing it is that a pure themepark mmo won't cut it anymore, despite the superb quality of TOR it just won't cut it. This is because players will burn through content faster than the devs can make it, especially so in TOR where content is so high quality compared to the rest of mmos.

 

.

 

the only thing swtor has proven to me is that the bioware devs did little to no research on how to make a successful mmo and what to do to retain those subs, or they did research it then said well f that ive got a better idea and they were dead wrong.

 

They made a game that removed all the risk and accomplishment of old school mmo's like wow did(which is fine), then refused to add any of the quality of life mmo standards wow has and thought that they would actualy have a succesful game.

 

And on sandbox games, always good in theory, but ive never seeen a good one. and i do not count eve, sure its massively multiplayer but it is nothing like a traditional mmo at all, different player base, different kind of game.

[MoltenRog]

SWG was a sandbox and never reached above 1million subs ever in its 8 years of service, wasn't that successful amirite? no but seriously in terms of this, don't lean on SWG to be a financially successful game for its time.

[Dezzi]

Do you perchance play Stronghold: Kingdoms? I Alpha tested that game, and while it was great fun and a pretty smooth experience for an Alpha, the very thing you mention here is as big turn-off. Gone are the days of the catasser and poopsocker. In a general sense, gamers do not want to have to feel tied to a game 24/7 in order to enjoy it. The times have changed and the industry has matured because gamers (relatively speaking) have matured. Having some sandboxing is nice, but the kind you have depends on the game itself, and it should never prevent players from progressing through the game at the pace that they feel most comfortable with.

 

BJ

 

But that's the problem SWTOR faces, isn't it?

 

I'm repeatedly fed this story about "locusts devouring content too fast" by posters on this forum, but at the end of the day, if the game doesn't gate its content in some way (time, credits, etc.), then players will burn through it--which isn't good for the game in the mid to long term. Yet games like SWTOR, which lack of any real risks or time-consuming sandbox content, encourage players to burn through content.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Dezzi

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

From your perspective perhaps, I've been around the block a few times and TOR's content is better than anything any other have ever made. (IMO )

 

What do you mean by "better content" ? If it´s voiceovers and VO, then YES absolutely.

If it´s the unfortunately just small number of mysteries and hidden things (Datacrons), Mystery Egg, then I´d say NO.

If it´s the kind of repetitive Kill X Click Y missions, then definitely NO.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Goretzu]

SWG was a sandbox and never reached above 1million subs ever in its 8 years of service, wasn't that successful amirite? no but seriously in terms of this, don't lean on SWG to be a financially successful game for its time.

 

It was the 2nd most successful (Western) MMORPG of all time at that time.

 

The number of MMORPGs that reached 1,000,000 subs is small. The number that did it before WoW launched is ZERO.

 

Successful.... is a very subjective thing, and saying that SWG didn't have 1,000,000 subs when none of it's the competitors of it's generation came close to that either isn't suggesting it wasn't.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

SWG was a sandbox and never reached above 1million subs ever in its 8 years of service, wasn't that successful amirite? no but seriously in terms of this, don't lean on SWG to be a financially successful game for its time.

 

Did SOE spend countless millions on advertising SWG like EA spent on TOR?

Certainly not.

Did the NGE WoWifying and un-sandboxing break SWG?

Yes.

Also SWG started when MMOs playing was by far not that "mainstream" as it is today.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Neloth]

What do you mean by "better content" ? If it´s voiceovers and VO, then YES absolutely.

If it´s the unfortunately just small number of mysteries and hidden things (Datacrons), Mystery Egg, then I´d say NO.

If it´s the kind of repetitive Kill X Click Y missions, then definitely NO.

 

When I say something about how good content is, I mean: VO, cinematics, the story behind it, the objectives I had to do, how challening I found it, did it manage to capture my interest in the moment, how different it was from the other content, how fun it was, yes "fun" is very difficult to determine, but if I found the sum of the encounter to be entertaining, then it is fun for me.

 

All mmo content is in it's basic from Kill, Click, Collect, the different is how it is dressed up and TOR beats the rest of the mmos out of the water.

[Mallorik]

It was the 2nd most successful (Western) MMORPG of all time at that time.

 

The number of MMORPGs that reached 1,000,000 subs is small. The number that did it before WoW launched is ZERO.

 

Successful.... is a very subjective thing, and saying that SWG didn't have 1,000,000 subs when none of it's the competitors of it's generation came close to that either isn't suggesting it wasn't.

 

Yeah out of what? 3 mmos? eq, daoc and asherons call?

[ferroz]

It was the 2nd most successful (Western) MMORPG of all time at that time.

meh, it barely edged out a game that was 6 years older than it, and never touched the one that was 4 years older than it.

 

The number of MMORPGs that reached 1,000,000 subs is small. The number that did it before WoW launched is ZERO.

No, both lineage and lineage 2 had more than 1 million before wow launched. You can qualify that with "western mmo" but that throwing qualifiers on it like that is bordering on doublespeak.

[ferroz]

Yeah out of what? 3 mmos? eq, daoc and asherons call?

You left out a lot of them. Among them: UO was nearly as popular as SWG, even at SWG's peak

 

see

• http://web.archive.org/web/20110714105823/http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart2.html
  
• http://web.archive.org/web/20110714105201/http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart3.html
  

[PendragonPrime]

I am not entirely sure what folks mean when they mention a "sandbox" game. I suspect many folks mean *different things* when talking about the concept of a "sandbox mmo" than each other.

 

Personally, when I think "sandbox" I think of a game which prizes player freedom over all else. In essence, I think of Elder Scrolls. And tbh I've never loved the Elder Scrolls games. I don't give a rat's *** if I can travel to some random lake and fish in it. Why the hell do I want to fish in some random lake? Or how many different kinds of bugs I can eat in the capital city. Totally meaningless trash.

 

I play games to be a hero. To solve the ancient mystery. To rescue the princess. To save the galaxy from the life-destroying super-whatever that's threatening to atomize it. I play it to encounter NPCs I actually care about, that have some depth to them. I play it (if it's an MMO) to make and have fun with friends. While saving the kingdom/universe/timeline/etc.

 

If I can do all this in a "sandbox" game, great!

 

But If being untethered means wandering through a field of disconnected content with no meaning, then tether me up and open up the themepark doors.

Edited May 8, 2012 by PendragonPrime

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

All mmo content is in it's basic from Kill, Click, Collect, the different is how it is dressed up and TOR beats the rest of the mmos out of the water.

 

To me the problem is that the Kill, Click and Collect are not dressed up AT ALL in TOR. It´s just naked Kill, Click and Collect.

 

Why is collecting a datacron more fun than collecting a keycard from the 10.000th mob I had to slash?

Because the way to reach your collection goal with some datacrons is a mixture of exploration, puzzle solving, arcade (although the jumping mechanics are below sub par) and permanent reward.

 

I did not find any quest where you do something else than walking up to some container or mob and reach goals with a few button clicks.

Edited May 8, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Kubernetic]

Theme Park to start with. Sandbox elements added in over time.

[PendragonPrime]

I did not find any quest where you do something else than walking up to some container or mob and reach goals with a few button clicks.

 

I agree, and this is a fair critique. That said, SWTOR is in its infancy. Every game is going to have to make tradeoffs at launch, one simply cannot have one's cake and eat it too with a budget and marketing deadline. WoW has a lot of diverse quest mechanics these days, ranging from the standard kill/click, to things as awesome as moving chase scenes where you throw bombs at chasing wearwolves from the back of a motorcycle.

 

But wow has had years and years to continue to develop its tech. It too began with killing 10 rats/boars/etc. Although I know it's hard, we have to resist the urge to compare SWTOR to games that have had years of design iteration, and expect it to have all the same bells and whistles. Even Greg Street, lead systems designer for WoW, famously once said that if WoW were to launch today, it couldn't compare with WoW.

 

The voice-acting and writing have thus far managed to hold my interest despite the weak quest tech. So long as they continue to improve upon it with new quest tech going forward and continue providing the voice-acting I love, they'll do all right by me.

 

They are granted some leeway at launch, what will determine my loyalty is whether they are content to leave it at kill/click, or continue to grow their quest tech along with future content.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

I am not entirely sure what folks mean when they mention a "sandbox" game.

 

By sandbox many usually mean putting all subscribers into the same "realm", an actual universe. If any subscriber goes to Tattooine, he can meet everyone else playing TOR on this planet, which needs to be signifcantly bigger and offering more questing areas to spread the players out.

Right now planets are small because they only need to be presented to a small number of players at the same time.

It´s like many small divided cinemas with small screens versus one big hall with a giant cinemascope screen to host the whole audience.

 

Usually the crafting is lot harder to discover, so the stuff you craft can get a lot more valueable or "special".

 

Also sandbox means giving the player the opportunity to change the worlds at least in some areas and to some degree, e.g. housing areas, conquerable guild- or player cities. That usually comes with day/night change, limited resources for mining to build stuff. This also works in space, faction controlled space or planets - you see this is heading into a more dynamic game world, which can change anytime, even politically.

e.g. in EvE, over time these mechanics lead to galaxy maps like this:

http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Verite/20090204.png

Edited May 8, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst