Theme Park vs Sandbox, What Do The Players Think?

[AHChrist]

is that why every sandbox MMO fails miserably?

 

Minecraft has sold more copies than Swtor ..it also just got released on xbox. There is a huge market for sandbox.

Edited May 11, 2012 by AHChrist

[Goretzu]

Minecraft has sold more copies than Swtor ..it also just got released on xbox. There is a huge market for sandbox.

 

Aye, it's an oft trotted out falacy.

 

A bit like "PvP being a niche" when in reality more people are gaming in PvP on the internet than gaming in any other "niche" (probably every other gaming niche put together).

 

Even Minecraft is thriving with PvP now.

[dcgregorya]

Anyone that designs a game to be either is being daft IMO.

 

And decent game should be both.

 

Quoted for truth. At level 50 it should be a sand box. There's just not enough to do and dailies are painfully boring. SWTOR's big issues is that crafting is still pretty broken/bad and there's just not much meaningful to do at 50 without increasing server size and getting the economy and PVP working properly.

[Spankyjnco]

Quoted for truth. At level 50 it should be a sand box. There's just not enough to do and dailies are painfully boring. SWTOR's big issues is that crafting is still pretty broken/bad and there's just not much meaningful to do at 50 without increasing server size and getting the economy and PVP working properly.

 

Can't just TURN sandbox at max level, it either is, or isnt.

[Goretzu]

Can't just TURN sandbox at max level, it either is, or isnt.

 

You could, it would be easier and better to have sandy features throughout, but it's by no means a necessity.

[mattgyver]

Can't just TURN sandbox at max level, it either is, or isnt.

 

^^ What? That makes no sense. It's not Mt. Rushmore, it's a computer game.

[MandraMoody]

Loved pre-NGE SWG and I like SWTOR but it is very linear.

To have the best of both genre's would be ideal!

 

Imagine swtor with:

 

Fully explorable planets.

A totally free skill system. (look up the swg skill system that SOE trashed because non-mmo player focus groups couldn't grasp it in 30 seconds.)

 

Player housing ON planets (not talkin harvestors we don't need those/clutter, but HOUSING).

Player cities even.

 

Free open space flight and combat. You could fly or lightspeed over to a space station and dock or go flying with friends or duel them in space, testing the ship you literally could spend hours building

 

More open options for gearing. Crafters could make stat gear and even choose colors/etc. My BH or Jedi could wear ANY armor and likewise for other classes. Edit: also could use ANY saber/gun/blade/fist weapon etc.

 

Decor - you could decorate your house/ship/bunker - I know a guy who had a to-scale sandcrawler he lived in and had vendors in you could buy from. He had it decorated inside to look like the movies.

Creature mounts - tauntaun/dewback/bantha etc.

multi-passenger speeders

 

-too many things to list all here but that's a few.

 

Basically these and many other sandbox elements give the one thing SWTOR needs in large doeses...more choices to differentiate your character. I agree that themepark is needed too, but yes both.

Edited May 12, 2012 by MandraMoody

[Keta]

Loved pre-NGE SWG and I like SWTOR but it is very linear.

To have the best of both genre's would be ideal!

 

Imagine swtor with...

 

Some of what you're suggesting aren't bad ideas regardless of whether the game is 'sandbox' or not. Planets that are, for the most part, fully explorable are a good idea. Less linear space encounters are also good. Personally though i do not like the idea of fully open skill trees. I want a Jedi to be a Jedi and not an odd hybrid. I wouldn't mind a more open skill tree though.

 

Truthfully, I've had similar discussions with my long time guild mates (since DAOC released SI originally) and they're leaning more towards the sandbox type mmo these days while i really dislike the things. Interestingly though, none of them were fond of SWG in any of its iterations (including the original version) and there were a bunch of them that were early beta testers there.

 

Personally I'd be happy, or happier, if they'd add open rvr areas to many of the planets with some objectives to fight and hold ala WAR (no third realm so i can't say ala DAOC).

[Goretzu]

Loved pre-NGE SWG and I like SWTOR but it is very linear.

To have the best of both genre's would be ideal!

 

Imagine swtor with:

 

Fully explorable planets.

A totally free skill system. (look up the swg skill system that SOE trashed because non-mmo player focus groups couldn't grasp it in 30 seconds.)

 

Player housing ON planets (not talkin harvestors we don't need those/clutter, but HOUSING).

Player cities even.

 

Free open space flight and combat. You could fly or lightspeed over to a space station and dock or go flying with friends or duel them in space, testing the ship you literally could spend hours building

 

More open options for gearing. Crafters could make stat gear and even choose colors/etc. My BH or Jedi could wear ANY armor and likewise for other classes. Edit: also could use ANY saber/gun/blade/fist weapon etc.

 

Decor - you could decorate your house/ship/bunker - I know a guy who had a to-scale sandcrawler he lived in and had vendors in you could buy from. He had it decorated inside to look like the movies.

Creature mounts - tauntaun/dewback/bantha etc.

multi-passenger speeders

 

-too many things to list all here but that's a few.

 

Basically these and many other sandbox elements give the one thing SWTOR needs in large doeses...more choices to differentiate your character. I agree that themepark is needed too, but yes both.

 

 

 

I'm not sure they could really add the skill system to SWTOR (they maybe could add a secondary system that was skill based though), but pretty much everything else you mentioned above could be added to SWTOR, given enough development time (i.e. money and commitment).

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

Loved pre-NGE SWG and I like SWTOR but it is very linear.

To have the best of both genre's would be ideal!

 

Imagine swtor with:

 

Fully explorable planets.

A totally free skill system. (look up the swg skill system that SOE trashed because non-mmo player focus groups couldn't grasp it in 30 seconds.)

 

Player housing ON planets (not talkin harvestors we don't need those/clutter, but HOUSING).

Player cities even.

 

Free open space flight and combat. You could fly or lightspeed over to a space station and dock or go flying with friends or duel them in space, testing the ship you literally could spend hours building

 

More open options for gearing. Crafters could make stat gear and even choose colors/etc. My BH or Jedi could wear ANY armor and likewise for other classes. Edit: also could use ANY saber/gun/blade/fist weapon etc.

 

Decor - you could decorate your house/ship/bunker - I know a guy who had a to-scale sandcrawler he lived in and had vendors in you could buy from. He had it decorated inside to look like the movies.

Creature mounts - tauntaun/dewback/bantha etc.

multi-passenger speeders

 

-too many things to list all here but that's a few.

 

Basically these and many other sandbox elements give the one thing SWTOR needs in large doeses...more choices to differentiate your character. I agree that themepark is needed too, but yes both.

 

Heck, in that case, I´ll put my credit card into an envelope and send it to Bioware, to charge me whatever they want !

[tloops]

sandbox please...i loved the big open worlds of SWG

[Karabal]

is that why every sandbox MMO fails miserably?

 

Erm ok how many sandbox MMORPG's can you list? And then list the ones that have failed. Apart from the obvious (SWG). And also I think alot of posters on this thread do not understand the term. I've only played one truly sandbox MMO and that is EvE. I played it for 8 years and its going as strong now as it was 8 years ago. The EvE universe is Vast there are no realms, everyone plays with/against each other in a single universe. Anyone that has played EvE will tell you what I mean.

 

In SWTOR I could travel from one end of a map to the other on every planet in a couple of hours. If I were to do a lap of every star system in EvE it would probably take me weeks playing 24 hours a day. And wherever I go anyone else in the world can go too. That is a sandbox MMORPG. And there is no way Bioware can hope to emulate that. Not under EA anyway.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Karabal

[Monave]

Erm ok how many sandbox MMORPG's can you list? And then list the ones that have failed. Apart from the obvious (SWG).

 

Actually, although I personally stopped playing SWG after the so-called Combat Upgrade (CU), but it ran for nearly 8 years despite SOE and its idiotic decisions so I really do not consider it a failure.

 

Despite all the bugs and flaws, SWG had a greater feel of immersion and connection with the game where you actually feel (and are) a piece of a dynamic universe. In short, it's much more similar to the real world compared to the theme park rigidness.

 

As far as community goes, there is absolutely NO comparison between this community and that of SWGs. In SWG the community was EVERYTHING and that is what makes a sandbox work.

 

On the other hand, the pure sandbox has weaknesses such as lack of content or weak or poor story lines. In this regard, even though it lacked much of a story or much needed content, SWG had the rich story and lore from the first three SW movies to work with. So even though it was a pure sandbox, it had the advantage of being set in a universe where most, if not ALL the players were intimately familiar with.

 

With that being said, you can take a sandbox like SWG and put theme park elements for those who want more of a linear guided MMO experience or those who want to have both.

 

There is no reason to believe that a game could have both elements and apply them well where you have a game that caters to a much wider audience. It's not a matter of having your cake and eating it too but rather having your cake and have enough for EVERYBODY to have a piece too.

 

With the current design of TOR, it would be unrealistic for them to try and add sandbox elements and it would probably be clumsy and half-baked if the attempt to do it.

 

I'm hoping in the future, we will have something like a SWG2 (Bioware you listening???) that will incorporate the best elements of both styles.

[mattgyver]

1) There is no reason to believe that a game could have both elements and apply them well where you have a game that caters to a much wider audience. It's not a matter of having your cake and eating it too but rather having your cake and have enough for EVERYBODY to have a piece too.

 

2) With the current design of TOR, it would be unrealistic for them to try and add sandbox elements and it would probably be clumsy and half-baked if the attempt to do it.

 

3) I'm hoping in the future, we will have something like a SWG2 (Bioware you listening???) that will incorporate the best elements of both styles.

 

1) fully agree

2) This isn't necessarily so and here you disagree with your previous statement. The Rakghoul plague event was something they added that wasn't half baked, and worked great. They showed that they can add things that are interesting and fun. Given a new planet and a different approach, I think that the Design Team could make a great place to fight, harvest, build, and adventure.

3) This game would have to be long dead and gone before anybody makes another SW MMO. If that happened I doubt it would be BW making it.

[Gharlane]

Theres actually quite a few sandbox games other than EvE, several with ffa/full player looting PvP (if thats your thing).They tend to be niche games, but the total market is substantial and there are some new sandbox titles coming out. I still play an old quirky and oddly charming little game called "Ryzom" which has totally open character development, a spell/skill builder system, complex crafting system, a huge sandbox world, day/night, weather, seasons, really clever monster/fauna ai...oh and not only can I run the shadows on a crappy old PC but they look WAY better than the shadows in SWTOR.

Theme park games are like...well a theme park, once you have "ridden the rides" your done. I have really enjoyed SWTOR the VO content/class stories are amazing but its more like a single player game that you play for a couple months and then move on from.

[Monave]

1) There is no reason to believe that a game could have both elements and apply them well where you have a game that caters to a much wider audience. It's not a matter of having your cake and eating it too but rather having your cake and have enough for EVERYBODY to have a piece too.

 

2) With the current design of TOR, it would be unrealistic for them to try and add sandbox elements and it would probably be clumsy and half-baked if the attempt to do it.

 

3) I'm hoping in the future, we will have something like a SWG2 (Bioware you listening???) that will incorporate the best elements of both styles.

 

1) fully agree

2) This isn't necessarily so and here you disagree with your previous statement. The Rakghoul plague event was something they added that wasn't half baked, and worked great. They showed that they can add things that are interesting and fun. Given a new planet and a different approach, I think that the Design Team could make a great place to fight, harvest, build, and adventure.

3) This game would have to be long dead and gone before anybody makes another SW MMO. If that happened I doubt it would be BW making it.

 

 

Yes I agree the Rakghoul event was a nice touch they did there. I hope we see more of these types of events which help with the emmersion. I guess I meant that it would seem easier to add theme park elements to a sandbox than vice versa but then again I'm not a designer so it's just speculation on my part.

 

Yes and sadly it will be a looong time before we see another SW MMO...but we can always hope!

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

every planet after 50 should be sandbox open world, that's the kind of endgame I'd like to see.

Add one vast planet each year with new stuff to conquer/explore and build houses and player cities

[Tiaa]

I think that this game is a very poor example of a sand-box MMO.

 

This game isn't even a MMO in my opinion.

 

It's just a single-player hub game with multiplayer features.

[ConradLionhart]

Sandbox people need to propose in a better way.

 

What would make SW:TOR stand out so much with new features that it is possible to drag players from bored WoW players?

 

Sandbox. A theme-park MMO with some good sandbox features. Something that WoW doesn't have.

 

Then people would be more receptive to that idea. SW:TOR does need to offer something different in order to get a share of WoW players.

[Fredcat]

Sandbox > Themepark every time. One thing I know for sure is people weren't bored in SWG 2-5 months after release. I've taken a few weeks break from this game to play ME3 and a couple other games and honestly I haven't really missed SWTOR. There's just nothing to do interesting other then warzones for me, and the same 4 with the same people over and over has gotten boring. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that BioWare knocks one out of the park with these upcoming expansions, but judging from what I've seen the first 5 months I have serious doubts. Everything in this game is just so dumbed down compared to other popular MMO's.

[ConradLionhart]

Sandbox > Themepark every time. One thing I know for sure is people weren't bored in SWG 2-5 months after release. I've taken a few weeks break from this game to play ME3 and a couple other games and honestly I haven't really missed SWTOR. There's just nothing to do interesting other then warzones for me, and the same 4 with the same people over and over has gotten boring. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that BioWare knocks one out of the park with these upcoming expansions, but judging from what I've seen the first 5 months I have serious doubts. Everything in this game is just so dumbed down compared to other popular MMO's.

 

I read somewhere that 1.4 will have exciting space content or something.

[BrainSplatter]

I really have a persevering dislike for the term "themepark" as it applies here, but if I'd theoretically have to choose between playing in a virtually static world and one the player can alter, shape, change, or even 'live in', well... of course I'd like some sandbox or 'sim' elements thrown in.

[Lord_Ravenhurst]

What if there is a license restriction for BW and SOE? Would explain the rail shooters in Clone Wars Adventures and TOR. Would explain the strict WoW like design.

Perhaps LucasArts is doing something MMO open world style based on the Battlefront/X-Wing series inhouse and they want to keep the genres apart.

Edited May 13, 2012 by Lord_Ravenhurst

[Goretzu]

Sandbox people need to propose in a better way.

 

What would make SW:TOR stand out so much with new features that it is possible to drag players from bored WoW players?

 

Sandbox. A theme-park MMO with some good sandbox features. Something that WoW doesn't have.

 

Then people would be more receptive to that idea. SW:TOR does need to offer something different in order to get a share of WoW players.

 

 

 

The one HUGE advantage Star Wars has over most other MMORPG IPs is that it has SPACE.

 

SWTOR can have a Jump to Lightspeed side...... which is something the likes of which WoW can never have (well unless they go all Spelljammer).

 

They also missed a HUGE trick with RvR - Ilum should have had at the least one of the 3 paret RvR basins from Warhammer Online just copied over.

 

 

A decent space expansion and decent RvR and SWTOR is a new game....... then add more sandy features and you've got a GREAT game.

[Ghaiana]

SWTOR will never be a sandbox, it's not how the game is designed (story driven). They can however add features that give people a wider choice in variation, or extend existing features (like legacy, crafting)