Vader vs Revan

[Aurbere]

Ya I found it lol, rather amusing. I did also post up some feats, on the last page if ya didn't get a look at those. Theres more I could have put, but just didn't feel like it.

 

Yeah, I saw. I think we can all agree that Vader would win this.

 

We as in people who know what they are talking about. I still laugh at the Revanites saying that Revan would win. Got a few chuckles out of the previous incarnation.

 

Correction: Vader would take a page out of Kyle Katarns book and ROFLcurbSTOMP Revan.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Aurbere

[Makoto_Shishio]

You realize that's non-canon, right? That was Game Mechanics. I actually read the Novels. Marek doesn't juice up on energy pylons to zap Vader. He never did anything to bolster himself when electrifying Vader. In the novels, Vader had to upgrade the insulation on his armor to protect himself better against Force Lightning, but Marek noted that a concentrated bolt could still get through the protection, and any damage in Vader's armor would provide an easy bypass and allow him to shock Vader directly.

According to the developers, its a scripted cutscene and what goes on a cutscene retcons the novel. This applies to the G canon movie novels as well according to lucas and sw.com. Though the novels don't show marek juicing himself up with the pylons, the comics and the game does.

 

And yes, Vader did upgrade his suit to better resist lightning but then so what? He still tanked Mareks lightning in the first game.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Makoto_Shishio

[Makoto_Shishio]

The talk of a characters potential has always been rather meaningless to me. Given enough time, any Force User could become as powerful, if not moreso, than Vader or Sidious. Vader's was claimed as 2x Sid's. Revan's in KotoR was said to be unlimited. If we went by such statements, then technically Revan could become the most powerful Force User ever, if he'd had the time to continue building power.

You do know that Revans "unlimited potential" is simply hyperbole right? Considering that redeemed Revan has already reached his peak(with "both sides of the force") and still had the smackdown laid on him by the Emperor. Besides, if we "went with such statements", An uninjured Anakin would have been THE most powerful force user ever, according to a certain director whose authority is way above yours.

 

So even if we did went with such statements, you're still wrong as always.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Edit: Nvrm this, I think I got what you were saying. Edited December 27, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[Makoto_Shishio]

What does it really matter anyway? Vader and Lift more than Revan, while Revan can actually Do More than Vader. Vader only has a handful of abilities he can use. Revan has a truckload, because he's using both sides of the Force equally.

And with Vaders "limited force" abilities he still outclasses Revan in force display.

And what does using "both sides of the force" equally mean other than meaning jack ****? G canon has several times stated that you can't "use both sides of the force", you can't be light AND dark.

I will always say Revan for my own reasons. For one, it having to take a Psuedo-Vader (The Wrath), Darth Nox, Ciper Nine and (presumably) the next Mandalore, to defeat a still weakened Revan on the Foundry.

With none of them, being at their peak.

People can claim "We don't know who he faced" well, it's basic Story Logic. FP's require 4 people. There are 4 classes, 4 stories. Having multiple of the same class in a FP is a Mechanic. The story is different. Storywise, one from each of the 4 classes would be in the Foundry.

And you do realize that "requiring 4 people" in a flashpoint is also gameplay mechanics right? Didn't you claim gameplay mechanics aren't canon?

 

I can also simply argue that i went in with my level 50 Op and then singlehandedly took out Revan.

So we have a Dartk Council member, the Emperor's private enforcer, the most skilled Agent in the Empire, and probably the most skilled and battle-hardened Mandalorian in the galaxy next to Mandalore himself. It took the four of them to overcome a weakened Revan. And we're still as of yet unaware if Revan was actually killed.

So by your logic, Vitiate is far weaker than Malgus, HK 47, Revan, The one and many other op bosses right? Since it was just one jedi, the hero of tython that laid the smack down on Vitiate? While it took four people to beat Malgus and Revan?

 

So Revan must be stronger than Vitiate... but how come its the other way around? How come the novel showed Vitiate beating Revan then???? Th!s m@k3s n0 s3n$3!!!!!!!

 

I mean it took one guy to "kill" Vitiate, but it took FOUR of THE best guys in the galaxy in their respective faction to take out Malgus?? If we go by your logic, none of this makes any sense.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Makoto_Shishio

[Makoto_Shishio]

You got a link/source to that bit?

This was stated by Leland Chee somewhere on the SW databanks. What goes on screen retcons what has been stated in the novel.

Its common sense, if the novel stated Galen was a black man and the game and cutscenes with sets, , cgi etc etc shows Galen as a white man, well what will you go by? What you have read or what you have actually seen?

 

The ROTS novel depicts sidious lobbing off fistos head but in the movie it shows him getting impaled, this part is then retconned by the movie. The same actually applies to the ROTS game as well.

 

And this was stated in a Q and A thread titled "Holocron continuity database questions thread" on the starwars forums, but now that the website has gone under extensive rennovation, i can't find it anymore.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Makoto_Shishio

[Wolfninjajedi]

This was stated by Leland Chee somewhere on the SW databanks. What goes on screen retcons what has been stated in the novel.

Its common sense, if the novel stated Galen was a black man and the game and cutscenes with sets, , cgi etc etc shows Galen as a white man, well what will you go by? What you have read or what you have actually seen?

 

The ROTS novel depicts sidious lobbing off fistos head but in the movie it shows him getting impaled, this part is then retconned by the movie. The same actually applies to the ROTS game as well.

 

And this was stated in a Q and A thread titled "Holocron continuity database questions thread" on the starwars forums, but now that the website has gone under extensive rennovation, i can't find it anymore.

 

Ya I realized what, you put after doing a double take...am a lil tired.

[ReiKai]

According to the developers, its a scripted cutscene and what goes on a cutscene retcons the novel. This applies to the G canon movie novels as well according to lucas and sw.com. Though the novels don't show marek juicing himself up with the pylons, the comics and the game does.

Actually, it was the Novel that, as it comes After, Retcons the game. Not vice-versa.

 

And yes, Vader did upgrade his suit to better resist lightning but then so what? He still tanked Mareks lightning in the first game.

 

And Vader got wrecked in the 1st game by him too, and even Sid got knocked around by him.So am I really going to go by that, or what happens in the Novel that Retcons the Game Mechanics and makes the story legit?

 

You do know that Revans "unlimited potential" is simply hyperbole right? Considering that redeemed Revan has already reached his peak(with "both sides of the force") and still had the smackdown laid on him by the Emperor. Besides, if we "went with such statements", An uninjured Anakin would have been THE most powerful force user ever, according to a certain director whose authority is way above yours.

 

It's not hyperbole if it's true. Frankly, they all have unlimited potential. You give one of them immortality, and he can spend the rest of eternity becoming infinitely more powerful. Also, it wasn't "Redeemed Revan" that went against Vitiate. You're thinking Revan before being named the Prodigal Knight after defeating Malak. The one who fought Vitiate was "Reborn Revan", and you forget that Revan had been drugged and interrogated for years before he went to fight the Sith Emperor. Claiming he was at his best when doing so is ridiculous.

 

And no, if we went by what GL said, he'd only be 2x sid's Power. Which is meaningless in the face of someone who could have literal Infinite Power. So really, don't try these BS arguments, especially about a guy who stopped caring about his own creation.

[Trixdope]

Its funny how ppl talk **** about Revan losing any of his fights when the only 2 fights he lost was because he was severely weakend, Or severely weakend and against 4 ppl. At least he has an excuse why he lost. Whats Vaders and Sids? All both of them did was get there *** whooped in fights with everybody but for some reason there the most powerful people ever....lol

[MasterMe]

Yeah, I saw. I think we can all agree that Vader would win this.

 

We as in people who know what they are talking about. I still laugh at the Revanites saying that Revan would win. Got a few chuckles out of the previous incarnation.

 

Correction: Vader would take a page out of Kyle Katarns book and ROFLcurbSTOMP Revan.

 

Why is it people always have to exadurate it when Revan loses?

 

There are several not-so-great people who fought Vader and didn't TOTALLY get mauled like Luke from ESB and then there's Ferus Olin. Heck, Ferus Olin was beating (if I remember correctly) Vader at one point. I'm not saying Revan would beat Vader, but I think he'd give him a close fight for sure. Just look at what he did to Nyriss.

[Castiel]

Why is it people always have to exadurate it when Revan loses?

 

There are several not-so-great people who fought Vader and didn't TOTALLY get mauled like Luke from ESB and then there's Ferus Olin. Heck, Ferus Olin was beating (if I remember correctly) Vader at one point. I'm not saying Revan would beat Vader, but I think he'd give him a close fight for sure. Just look at what he did to Nyriss.

 

Heck, even Boba Fett beat Vader at one point......

[Makoto_Shishio]

Actually, it was the Novel that, as it comes After, Retcons the game. Not vice-versa.

Not according to what has been established in canon.

 

 

And Vader got wrecked in the 1st game by him too, and even Sid got knocked around by him.So am I really going to go by that, or what happens in the Novel that Retcons the Game Mechanics and makes the story legit?

Again, it isn't gameplay mechanics if the whole scene is scripted. And yes, its not hard to believe that galen gave sidious a knockout, considering that both Sidious and the game director stated that he, right behind Anakin, had the potential to be the most powerful force user.

 

 

It's not hyperbole if it's true. Frankly, they all have unlimited potential. You give one of them immortality, and he can spend the rest of eternity becoming infinitely more powerful. Also, it wasn't "Redeemed Revan" that went against Vitiate. You're thinking Revan before being named the Prodigal Knight after defeating Malak. The one who fought Vitiate was "Reborn Revan", and you forget that Revan had been drugged and interrogated for years before he went to fight the Sith Emperor. Claiming he was at his best when doing so is ridiculous.

Yeah its hyperbole, whether you like it or choose to not accept it is irrelevant. Vitiate was more than a thousand years old, yet countless sources backed with feats still reign Sidious, despite only having a few decades of training as the undisputed most accomplished and powerful sith lord in galactic history.

 

There are limits to how much one can achieve and id argue that even in the SW verse, ones genetics(or in this case midi-cholorians) determine how far one can achieve with the force(which again, is stated by both lucas and chee) which is why Anakin skywalker has been stated to have had the most potential of any force users due to his unusually high midicholorian count.

And no, if we went by what GL said, he'd only be 2x sid's Power. Which is meaningless in the face of someone who could have literal Infinite Power. So really, don't try these BS arguments, especially about a guy who stopped caring about his own creation.

Ergo, you decide to ignore established canon, why are you even bother debating then? "Literal Infinite Power"? Hyperbole mate, and it was being stated by a fallible in universe character unlike Anakin and Galens potential which were both stated out of universe by their creators.

[Makoto_Shishio]

Why is it people always have to exadurate it when Revan loses?

 

There are several not-so-great people who fought Vader and didn't TOTALLY get mauled like Luke from ESB and then there's Ferus Olin. Heck, Ferus Olin was beating (if I remember correctly) Vader at one point. I'm not saying Revan would beat Vader, but I think he'd give him a close fight for sure. Just look at what he did to Nyriss.

 

Claiming Vader would "roflstomp" Revan is a tad bid ridiculous, both are extremely powerful and capable force users. Personally i do see Vader winning this, but it won't be without Revan giving him a hellish and brutal fight.

[MasterMe]

Claiming Vader would "roflstomp" Revan is a tad bid ridiculous, both are extremely powerful and capable force users. Personally i do see Vader winning this, but it won't be without Revan giving him a hellish and brutal fight.

 

I agree. It's good to see somebody else who can say that Revan loses without saying that he loses by a landslide.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Heck, even Boba Fett beat Vader at one point......

 

No he didn't.

[Darkondo]

Heck, even Boba Fett beat Vader at one point......

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKGz6NMZRvQ yea this pretty much sums up Vader vs Fett

[Aurbere]

Why is it people always have to exadurate it when Revan loses?

 

There are several not-so-great people who fought Vader and didn't TOTALLY get mauled like Luke from ESB and then there's Ferus Olin. Heck, Ferus Olin was beating (if I remember correctly) Vader at one point. I'm not saying Revan would beat Vader, but I think he'd give him a close fight for sure. Just look at what he did to Nyriss.

 

By saying that Revan would give Vader a close fight is like saying that Revan could beat(or come close to beating) Obi-Wan, Plo Koon, Count Dooku, Cin Drallig, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, and the list goes on.

 

Sorry, but Revan doesn't stand a chance against any of the above, let alone Vader himself.

[Wolfninjajedi]

Actually, it was the Novel that, as it comes After, Retcons the game. Not vice-versa.

The novels usually come out before anything else. The movie novels came out before the movies, and the game(in this cause TFU) novels came out before the games themselves. So Reikai that isn't right..

 

TFU(Novel)= Aug 19th, 08

 

TFU(Game)= Sept 17th, 08

Edited December 27, 2012 by Wolfninjajedi

[MasterMe]

By saying that Revan would give Vader a close fight is like saying that Revan could beat(or come close to beating) Obi-Wan, Plo Koon, Count Dooku, Cin Drallig, Yoda, Kit Fisto, Mace Windu, and the list goes on.

 

Sorry, but Revan doesn't stand a chance against any of the above, let alone Vader himself.

 

A matter of debate that is.

[steaktrooper]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKGz6NMZRvQ yea this pretty much sums up Vader vs Fett

 

That video was mildly hilarious. "Hey maybe if we walk in the woods with our lightsabers all on no one will see us!"-Jedi logic.

[Aurbere]

A matter of debate that is.

 

Is it? Who do we have?

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi- The Soresu Master. Has defeated enemies like General Grievous and Darth Maul, not to mention Anakin Skywalker himself.

Plo Koon- One of the most skilled practitioners of Djem So of all time and one of the most powerful Jedi in the Golden Age.

Count Dooku- The Master of Makashi (which is a for dedicated to lightsaber dueling) and was once considered the Chosen One. Defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin soundly in multiple engagements and could duel on even terms with Mace Windu.

Kit Fisto- Master of the Shii-Cho form which allowed him to defeat General Grievous with relative ease. If Revan went up against him with two blades, Kit would win easy.

Mace Windu- I don't even need to say anything here. He defeated Darth Sidious. Revan is no match for him.

Yoda- Kinda speaks for himself.

Cin Drallig- Battlemaster of the Jedi Order and combat instructor to Obi-Wan, Anakin etc.

 

Vader could keep up with many of these Jedi (pre-Mustafar he defeated Dooku and Drallig). The only ones that could give the Dark Lord trouble (and beat him) are Yoda and Mace Windu. Vader was one of the most dominant lightsaber duelists of all time.

 

Vader trounces Revan.

 

Edit: The reason Revan can't beat any of the above is because he is simply outclassed. By the time of the Golden Age, the lightsaber forms had evolved far beyond what Revan could comprehend. The great Masters of the Order were some of the best ever seen (as noted above). Vader is THE Jedi Killer. Revan is just another kill for him.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Aurbere

[MasterMe]

Is it? Who do we have?

 

Obi-Wan Kenobi- The Soresu Master. Has defeated enemies like General Grievous and Darth Maul, not to mention Anakin Skywalker himself.

Plo Koon- One of the most skilled practitioners of Djem So of all time and one of the most powerful Jedi in the Golden Age.

Count Dooku- The Master of Makashi (which is a for dedicated to lightsaber dueling) and was once considered the Chosen One. Defeated Obi-Wan and Anakin soundly in multiple engagements and could duel on even terms with Mace Windu.

Kit Fisto- Master of the Shii-Cho form which allowed him to defeat General Grievous with relative ease. If Revan went up against him with two blades, Kit would win easy.

Mace Windu- I don't even need to say anything here. He defeated Darth Sidious. Revan is no match for him.

Yoda- Kinda speaks for himself.

Cin Drallig- Battlemaster of the Jedi Order and combat instructor to Obi-Wan, Anakin etc.

 

Vader could keep up with many of these Jedi (pre-Mustafar he defeated Dooku and Drallig). The only ones that could give the Dark Lord trouble (and beat him) are Yoda and Mace Windu. Vader was one of the most dominant lightsaber duelists of all time.

 

Vader trounces Revan.

 

Edit: The reason Revan can't beat any of the above is because he is simply outclassed. By the time of the Golden Age, the lightsaber forms had evolved far beyond what Revan could comprehend. The great Masters of the Order were some of the best ever seen (as noted above). Vader is THE Jedi Killer. Revan is just another kill for him.

 

Well I guess my attempt to not start a debate wasn't good enough. Fine. Here goes:

 

Revan:

- One of the greatest duelists of his time

-defeated Malak. We've been through this. Due to Bastila's battle med, Malak's dark nexus (Star Forge advantage) was gone but he still had many bodies to suck life from. Revan (likely) had to fight Malak 3-4 times in a row. That's impressive.

- defeated MtU (in war and in one-on-one)

- defeated the entire Korriban academy

- defeated Darth Bandon

- defeated Darth Nyriss in a second (Darth Nyriss > Scourge + Surik)

- understands both sides of the force (doesn't use 'em both I know)

- influenced Vitiate into doing the Treaty of Coruscant (I think)

- great tactician

 

So yeah...

it IS debatable. Are you trying to say it isn't debatable? Do you realize how illogical that is?

 

EDIT: and you mentioned the "outclassed" by future generations again. I've explained how this doesn't apply to individuals before. As for the Jedi having dueling techniques that Revan couldn't comprehend due to thousands of years between them - wrong. Kreia herself said that Tulak Hord was a FAR better duelist then the likes of Meetra Surik. How is that so? He came a LONG time before Meetra.

Edited December 27, 2012 by MasterMe

[Aurbere]

Well I guess my attempt to not start a debate wasn't good enough. Fine. Here goes:

 

Revan:

- One of the greatest duelists of his time

-defeated Malak. We've been through this. Due to Bastila's battle med, Malak's dark nexus (Star Forge advantage) was gone but he still had many bodies to suck life from. Revan (likely) had to fight Malak 3-4 times in a row. That's impressive.

- defeated MtU (in war and in one-on-one)

- defeated the entire Korriban academy

- defeated Darth Bandon

- defeated Darth Nyriss in a second (Darth Nyriss > Scourge + Surik)

- understands both sides of the force (doesn't use 'em both I know)

- influenced Vitiate into doing the Treaty of Coruscant (I think)

- great tactician

 

So yeah...

it IS debatable. Are you trying to say it isn't debatable? Do you realize how illogical that is?

 

Sometimes I wonder why I even bother...

 

One of the best duelists of his time? Yes. On the caliber of those mentioned above? No.

Defeated Darth Malak: Not that impressive. Vader could have steamrolled everything in the Star Forge with ease.

Defeated MtU: All those mentioned above could as well.

A Korriban academy filled with mostly students that had a meager grasp of the Dark Side at best. Vader walked into a trap set by 8 Jedi Masters(note MASTERS) and took out (I think) 5 of them before help arrived.

Bandon? Please. Even Darth Maul could beat him.

Nyriss unleashed all of her power in one blast. Revan turned that blast against her to destroy her. That doesn't speak well for Nyriss.

Revan understands both sides of the Force? Maybe, not to the degree of those mentioned above. Mace Windu and Yoda could contemplate the Dark Side without being corrupted. Revan doesn't understand the Force to the same level as Yoda or Mace Windu.

Revan only survived his mental battle with the Emperor because of Meetra Surik's spirit helping him. Look how that turned out. Vader's will is indomitable.

Great Tactician? So is Vader.

 

You do realize that none of these accomplishments compare to Vader's. If we want to go off of feats, then Vader still wins.

[Aurbere]

EDIT: and you mentioned the "outclassed" by future generations again. I've explained how this doesn't apply to individuals before. As for the Jedi having dueling techniques that Revan couldn't comprehend due to thousands of years between them - wrong. Kreia herself said that Tulak Hord was a FAR better duelist then the likes of Meetra Surik. How is that so? He came a LONG time before Meetra.

 

Was Traya there? Does she personally know Tulak Hord? Character statements are N-Canon.

[MyDarkSunshine]

I think Aurbere, you're missing MasterMe's point. The point is, that like many things in life, fiction or otherwise, the relative power of characters within the Star Wars universe is debatable. Which it absolutely it. One could make an argument suggesting Vader post-suit was slow with a lightsaber, fought to a standstill by an old and unfit Obi-Wan; which based on the movie interpretation of said battle (and thus G-canon) he was. Now don't get me wrong, I know that probably isn't how Lucas envisioned the event or how it should be viewed; but that argument follows reasonably sound logic. Based on scenes from the movies many of these apparently amazing Jedi could be viewed as entirely incompetent.

 

The entire argument based off the "Golden Age of the Jedi" is entirely speculative, as that could mean so many different things. Without further clarification it should not be used to decide all Jedi of a certain time period are vastly superior. It is also flawed as you're comparing Jedi to each other, and you almost always follow a circlular argument of "this guy could beat this guy that could fight this guy fairly and that guy could beat him and he's the greatest Jedi ever in the greatest age of Jedi". Okay, hyperbole on my part but it does come off that way to a certain extent. The only real indicator of their relative strengths is Lucas' direct comment on Anakin's power, and some made about Sidious and Luke. Most these comments, whilst canon, are also merely products of Lucas wanting to keep his toys super special, which makes for lame story but unfortunately has to be considered fact. However given Lucas has never commented on the relative power of EU characters (indeed, many times he's stated he doesn't read their stories) you have no way of saying "[insert character] is better than [insert character] by canon law". Thus, it is open to debate.

Edited December 27, 2012 by MyDarkSunshine