A Gap Closer for Operatives

[Darthbarbarous]

The many posts above me, make no sense to me. You are all asking for some sort of gap closer, but then at the same time asking for an ability (such as a KB many have raised) which will create a gap between you and your target? So what is it, you want a gap closer or a gap creator? Because one directly contradicts the other.

 

My opinion on this is the following:

 

Gap closer: not needed you have stealth and can choose your target at your own will. you can choose when you wish to enter combat and when you wish not to enter combat. For those that say stealth is not a gap closer let me point this out. You are in stealth approaching a ranged class, they dont see you coming and you essentially walk right up beside them before engaging in combat on YOUR terms to start. At this point you have a ridiculous KD and lots of burst, as well as a stun. Gap closed and target effectively acquired and highly killable in this situation if you chose the right target to initiate combat. Now in the same scenerio another melee class starts to approach the same ranged target without stealth. The ranged target sees the melee coming and can start to prepare for the battle, essentially even start dpsing the target before it gets on him. If the melee uses force leap, the range target can be expecting (should be) it and have a KB/stun primed to counter. This is why people say stealth is a gap closer, because it allows the stealth class to close a huge range undetected and attack their chosen target, catching them offguard and giving them the upperhand. If things go to crap in your attempt, vanish, rinse and repeat when safe or on a better selected target.

 

If you have trouble locking down your target or killing them once you break stealth, then that is an entirely different problem of your own manifestiation, since you already have been given the tools to close any gap of your choosing, fight any target of your choosing, at any time of your choosing and have the upperhand in doing so.

 

The op/scound is not meant to go 52 and 1 in WZ's, it is meant to be a single target (med/light armor) annihilator in the right situation. I see this all the time, an op/scound runs into a group of enemy and tries to down a single target while getting beat on by 3 other targets. Guess what, that is the wrong approach to this class. FYI

Edited February 28, 2012 by Darthbarbarous

[ImSaved]

The many posts above me, make no sense to me. You are all asking for some sort of gap closer, but then at the same time asking for an ability (such as a KB many have raised) which will create a gap between you and your target? So what is it, you want a gap closer or a gap creator? Because one directly contradicts the other.

 

My opinion on this is the following:

 

Gap closer: not needed you have stealth and can choose your target at your own will. you can choose when you wish to enter combat and when you wish not to enter combat. For those that say stealth is not a gap closer let me point this out. You are in stealth approaching a ranged class, they dont see you coming and you essentially walk right up beside them before engaging in combat on YOUR terms to start. At this point you have a ridiculous KD and lots of burst, as well as a stun. Gap closed and target effectively acquired and highly killable in this situation if you chose the right target to initiate combat. Now in the same scenerio another melee class starts to approach the same ranged target without stealth. The ranged target sees the melee coming and can start to prepare for the battle, essentially even start dpsing the target before it gets on him. If the melee uses force leap, the range target can be expecting (should be) it and have a KB/stun primed to counter. This is why people say stealth is a gap closer, because it allows the stealth class to close a huge range undetected and attack their chosen target, catching them offguard and giving them the upperhand. If things go to crap in your attempt, vanish, rinse and repeat when safe or on a better selected target.

 

If you have trouble locking down your target or killing them once you break stealth, then that is an entirely different problem of your own manifestiation, since you already have been given the tools to close any gap of your choosing, fight any target of your choosing, at any time of your choosing and have the upperhand in doing so.

 

The op/scound is not meant to go 52 and 1 in WZ's, it is meant to be a single target (med/light armor) annihilator in the right situation. I see this all the time, an op/scound runs into a group of enemy and tries to down a single target while getting beat on by 3 other targets. Guess what, that is the wrong approach to this class. FYI

 

75% of Warzones nowadays are Huttball, which makes everything you posted pretty much pointless. It doesn't matter if you choose to initiate the fight, because if it's anywhere near the 900 ledges, railings, and drop-offs that are Huttball, you will be knocked off and have no way to re-initiate the fight.

 

I do my best to position myself so that I won't get knocked off, unfortunately, that only works on targets that stand still and spam their knockback skill mindlessly. An intelligent player always positions themselves appropriately before using a knockback, and in Huttball, it is essentially an "I-WIN" button vs. Scoundrels / Operatives. We have no way of re-engaging, or pressuring the target, and they simply continue whatever it is they were already doing.

 

I urge other classes to put themselves in our shoes, just use your imagination. A melee class, in Huttball, with no gap closing or speed increasing abilities. Go.

[hulkweazel]

The many posts above me, make no sense to me. You are all asking for some sort of gap closer, but then at the same time asking for an ability (such as a KB many have raised) which will create a gap between you and your target? So what is it, you want a gap closer or a gap creator? Because one directly contradicts the other.

 

My opinion on this is the following:

 

Gap closer: not needed you have stealth and can choose your target at your own will. you can choose when you wish to enter combat and when you wish not to enter combat. For those that say stealth is not a gap closer let me point this out. You are in stealth approaching a ranged class, they dont see you coming and you essentially walk right up beside them before engaging in combat on YOUR terms to start. At this point you have a ridiculous KD and lots of burst, as well as a stun. Gap closed and target effectively acquired and highly killable in this situation if you chose the right target to initiate combat. Now in the same scenerio another melee class starts to approach the same ranged target without stealth. The ranged target sees the melee coming and can start to prepare for the battle, essentially even start dpsing the target before it gets on him. If the melee uses force leap, the range target can be expecting (should be) it and have a KB/stun primed to counter. This is why people say stealth is a gap closer, because it allows the stealth class to close a huge range undetected and attack their chosen target, catching them offguard and giving them the upperhand. If things go to crap in your attempt, vanish, rinse and repeat when safe or on a better selected target.

 

If you have trouble locking down your target or killing them once you break stealth, then that is an entirely different problem of your own manifestiation, since you already have been given the tools to close any gap of your choosing, fight any target of your choosing, at any time of your choosing and have the upperhand in doing so.

 

The op/scound is not meant to go 52 and 1 in WZ's, it is meant to be a single target (med/light armor) annihilator in the right situation. I see this all the time, an op/scound runs into a group of enemy and tries to down a single target while getting beat on by 3 other targets. Guess what, that is the wrong approach to this class. FYI

Completely and utterly wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about. Try doing some research or actually playing the class before spouting your mouth.

 

The fact is, Ops cannot re-enter stealth at will. Give Cloaking Screen a 30 second cooldown and MAYBE I'll agree with you.

[wiazabi]

For people saying we got stealth as gap closer please explain assasin/shadows

 

forcespeed which is even usable in stealth

knockback ( wait somewhere in stealth and knockdown ballcarrier )

Pull if specced and alot of people do.

[Ozzone]

Yeah, name the other stealth classes that don't have a real gap closer. Stealth has never been a gap closer. When are people going to get that? Edited February 28, 2012 by Ozzone

[Ich_Bin]

Yeah, name the other stealth classes that don't have a real gap closer. Stealth has never been a gap closer. When are people going to get that?

 

Judging from the number of people ITT who have already said "STEALTH IS A GAP CLOSER" and have been proven wrong, and considering the fact that there are still people everyday who say that stealth is a gap closer... Probably never.

 

People hate Operatives because getting killed by one is the nastiest way of dying in this game. So they call for MORE nerfs and really have no idea how weak the class already has become.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Ich_Bin

[Ryotknife]

Yeah, name the other stealth classes that don't have a real gap closer. Stealth has never been a gap closer. When are people going to get that?

 

...there are only two stealth classes.

 

and yes, stealth can be used as a gap closer in certain scenarios. can stealth always be used as a gap closer? no, but stealth also has hundreds of applications in which it can be used compared to a "gap closer" ability 1-2 uses.

 

ops will start the fight off in melee range if they are in stealth, this is no different from a melee being forced to use their only gap closer right off the bat against a ranged and then not having a single gap closer for the next 45 seconds. and hell, my grapple cant always be used as a gap closer either.

 

i wouldnt mind seeing ops getting a 45 sec CD gap closer, simply to annoy the piss out of sorcs seeing how the other ranged (and really most of the other classes in general) can either not get away from ops at all or have an extremely difficult time of it, so a gap closer wouldnt really change this at all. course, then ops need to have their burst toned down more, although you can compensate that with energy regen talents or just upping energy regen baseline to increase sustained.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Ryotknife

[Cataphractone]

Ops/Scoundrels don't need gap closers. They have stealth, great burst damage and tons of stuns. What more do you want?

 

A gap closer.

[Howbadisbad]

Ops/Scoundrels don't need gap closers. They have stealth, great burst damage and tons of stuns. What more do you want?

 

Great burst and tons of stuns? compared to what?

 

Other classes? Nope.

 

They are middle of the pack burst and have 2 melee range stuns.

[hulkweazel]

...there are only two stealth classes.

 

and yes, stealth can be used as a gap closer in certain scenarios. can stealth always be used as a gap closer? no, but stealth also has hundreds of applications in which it can be used compared to a "gap closer" ability 1-2 uses.

 

ops will start the fight off in melee range if they are in stealth, this is no different from a melee being forced to use their only gap closer right off the bat against a ranged and then not having a single gap closer for the next 45 seconds. and hell, my grapple cant always be used as a gap closer either.

 

i wouldnt mind seeing ops getting a 45 sec CD gap closer, simply to annoy the piss out of sorcs seeing how the other ranged (and really most of the other classes in general) can either not get away from ops at all or have an extremely difficult time of it, so a gap closer wouldnt really change this at all. course, then ops need to have their burst toned down more, although you can compensate that with energy regen talents or just upping energy regen baseline to increase sustained.

Key words "IF WE'RE IN STEALTH".

 

We can't stealth in combat. Sometimes it takes forever to get out of combat, even if you're not fighting anything. It's also ridiculously easy to get into combat. We have one ability to force stealth on a three minute cooldown. Try seeing how often an Op can stealth in Huttball.

 

For some reason people seem to think Ops can go in and out of stealth at will. This simply is not the case.

Edited February 28, 2012 by hulkweazel

[AdmiralOnasi]

Yeah give you guys a gap closer! You really need one since you stealth up on someone and backstab the crap out of them knocking them down and spamming backstab. Give me a break with the gap closer crap your class is still OP just ask chillz on Vulkar Highway who devastates people using back stab. A gap closer yeah whatever!

 

It's ridiculous posts like this that got the class broken in the first place.

[gryhmr]

When an operative doesn't open on me for half my health before I can begin to fight back and apply a snare and a dot at the same time then sure give them a gap closer. until then they are perfectly fine.

[hulkweazel]

When an operative doesn't open on me for half my health before I can begin to fight back and apply a snare and a dot at the same time then sure give them a gap closer. until then they are perfectly fine.

Have you played the class at all? No? Then S.TFU. You don't know what you're talking about.

 

Why do people like you think you know everything about a class you've never played? I'll say it one more time. In caps this time: OPS CANNOT FREELY GO IN AND OUT OF STEALTH. IT'S NOT POSSIBLE.

[Slurmez]

you have RANGE as well as melee hence no closer, stop crying

[astrolite]

When an operative doesn't open on me for half my health before I can begin to fight back and apply a snare and a dot at the same time then sure give them a gap closer. until then they are perfectly fine.

 

I'll take 100% crit on my abilities and have an unbreakable stun in exchange for no gap closer. Sounds like a fair deal. That is what you think we have after all, so it wouldn't be any change from your standpoint.

[astrolite]

you have RANGE as well as melee hence no closer, stop crying

 

So ranged classes shouldn't have knockbacks/roots/snares - they have RANGED after all.

[Dystopic]

I'd laugh if bioware gave ops shadowstep.

[hulkweazel]

you have RANGE as well as melee hence no closer, stop crying

Shows your ignorance. Op's range is useless. We have a normal attack, Snipe (Only usable in cover, which is useless in most situations for Ops), a 10 meter ability, and a weak DoT. Yeah that's going to scare people.

 

Ops are NOT A RANGED CLASS. Can ignorant people like you please stop making stupid comments?

[Ich_Bin]

When an operative doesn't open on me for half my health before I can begin to fight back and apply a snare and a dot at the same time then sure give them a gap closer. until then they are perfectly fine.

 

This is exactly what I mean. Operatives are the most hated class in this game. Everyone only remembers the situations in which an Operative got the jump on them and says they are overpowered. Those people have never played an Operative let alone played one in Huttball, so they really have no idea what they are talking about.

That's just how it is.

[SammuelSK]

When an operative doesn't open on me for half my health before I can begin to fight back and apply a snare and a dot at the same time then sure give them a gap closer. until then they are perfectly fine.

 

And yet on my BH and Sniper, the class that gives me the least ammount of concern is an operative. In both situations I know I've got the tools available to me to get rid of them instantly.

 

So maybe you are the one that needs to L2P?

 

Sorcs, without question, have even more abilities available to them to lock down, kite and destory an operative. So what is this magic class that still gets destoryed by operatives? Marauders and Juggs? Assassins? I think not.

[Mongrul]

Shows your ignorance. Op's range is useless. We have a normal attack, Snipe (Only usable in cover, which is useless in most situations for Ops), a 10 meter ability, and a weak DoT. Yeah that's going to scare people.

 

Ops are NOT A RANGED CLASS. Can ignorant people like you please stop making stupid comments?

 

operatives are a ranged class no matter how much you dont want them to be. just cause 1 of 3 trees focuses on melee doesnt mean the whole class is a melee class

 

also if you list the melee abilities there will be less than those ranged ones you named

 

take a look in the ignorant mirror

Edited February 28, 2012 by Mongrul

[ImSaved]

When an operative doesn't open on me for half my health before I can begin to fight back and apply a snare and a dot at the same time then sure give them a gap closer. until then they are perfectly fine.

 

When an Operative doesn't have to burn every Biochem consumable and CD available to do this, then I might take you seriously.

[Forthehonor]

operatives are a ranged class no matter how much you dont want them to be. just cause 1 of 3 trees focuses on melee doesnt mean the whole class is a melee class

 

also if you list the melee abilities there will be less than those ranged ones you named

 

take a look in the ignorant mirror

 

 

First of yes there is the lethality spec(which is a medium range 10-20 meter spec) but its pretty much **** in pvp(not sure bout pve)

I guess you could argue healing is ranged but if a operative healer needs a ta, it is useful to be in range to use shiv, also the main utility spell debilitate is also melee range, so even operative healing is a ranged-melee hybrid of sorts.

 

But the spec that most operatives use is concealment, since its the only viable damage dealing spec(i might even dare say only viable spec at all, the healing spec is....bad)

 

Also regarding your witty "also if you list the melee abilities there will be less than those ranged ones you named"

Sure il name the abilities we use.

 

These are the ranged abilities That operatives use reguarly in pvp

Rifleshot

Overload shot

Frag grenade

Corrosive dart.

Only overload shot does anywhere near decent damage, and its on a 10 meter range(consider that melee range is 4 meters) so it is nearly melee anyway.

Sure there are some more like snipe and explosive probe, but we never ever use those abilities because they require you to be in cover, and the act of rolling into cover locks you in cover for about a second when going out of cover, which makes it totally useless and unviable in any real pvp.

 

Our main damage dealing abilities are:

Shiv(melee range)

Backstab(melee range and behind target)

Acid blade (adds a dot to next hiden strike or backstab, and gives armorpen)

Hidden strike (melee range)

Lacerate (melee range)

 

ther's also our stun of course: debilitate(melee range)

 

So i think its pretty easy to see that operatives are a melee class in the most used spec, even the others have to go into melee range sometimes.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Forthehonor

[ImSaved]

operatives are a ranged class no matter how much you dont want them to be. just cause 1 of 3 trees focuses on melee doesnt mean the whole class is a melee class

 

also if you list the melee abilities there will be less than those ranged ones you named

 

take a look in the ignorant mirror

 

Sawbones is a healing role, so it's skill range is insignificant. Scrapper is a pure melee spec, with only 3 skills having greater than 10m range, all of which hit ridiculously low. And Dirty Fighting is "supposed" to fill our ranged role, unfortunately it only adds one ability to the 30m list and it does not proc Upper Hand, so you're still required to be in melee range to any significant amount of damage.

 

No, there is not more ranged abilities than melee ones. And no, having a couple minor abilities to use from a distance while chasing someone does not make it a "ranged" class.

[Wren_Atticus]

Last time I played my scoundrel he had stealth as a form of gap closing and tendon blast as reliable snare...

 

lol That is precious.

 

Shadows/Sins have stealth and Force Speed.

 

And Tendon Blast does nothing when they are more than 4 yards in front of you.