A Gap Closer for Operatives

[Vamina]

actually, i don't think flashbang gives any resolve considering i've had 3 flashbang debuffs on me at the same time and only a 1/2 full resolve as well because i was 4 second sorc stunned (surprise surprise) just prior to the flashbangs.

 

and if an operative outside of being being cc'd by one of the ten thousand cc's in this game is letting anyone get more than 10m from them then they're bad. They also have cover/snipe/other numerous ranged attacks that ARENT 10m that still hit ridiculously hard for them to be all out considered a "melee" class. I call ********.

If by "hit ridiculously hard" you mean for Snipers, then yes. The Operative advanced class doesn't have talents that enhance those abilities, which means they hit about as hard as swinging a limp noodle, especially if the target has any kind of gear or is receiving an occasional heal. Using said abilities also requires us to be rooted in place, which leaves us no options for taking down anything other than a nearly dead target.

[rlpirate]

a class that walks around invisible wants a gap closer. now i seen it all.

[Vamina]

Sorry, did you forget about that blaster rifle in your hands?

 

Honestly they should just get rid of the blaster rifle for ops and replace it with twin knifes or something because nobody uses it.

 

Overload is pretty hard-hitting to me as a sniper and ops have a skill which boosts its damage. Try using it when they eventually get up of the ground.

 

Don't think of yourself as a melee class without a gap closer.

Think of yourself as a melee class with ranged attacks.

 

Don't ignore your blaster rifle.

Overload has a 10m range, so I would hardly call that a ranged attack. It also doesn't hit for near the damage as our knife attacks, so at that point we may as well just Sever Tendon and Shiv/Lacerate. Don't talk about how Operatives work when you play a Sniper, it is not the same thing.

[Vamina]

a class that walks around invisible wants a gap closer. now i seen it all.

Another class that walks around invisible already has one. Move along.

[rlpirate]

Another class that walks around invisible already has one. Move along.

 

how about this, give operative a teleport button that puts him right behind someone while staying cloaked? or how about giveing u snipe from cloak? Is that enough?

 

if u cant get on someone while being invisible u need to stop playing games, my lvl 11 troll operative has no problem geting on people lol.

[Ngamok]

Any class that can stunlock kill from out of the shadows doesnt need additions tbh

 

You guys are the vanilla wow rogues

 

They really can't do that anymore.

[Evil_Santa]

At the base, how many CCs do Ops have?

[Vamina]

how about this, give operative a teleport button that puts him right behind someone while staying cloaked? or how about giveing u snipe from cloak? Is that enough?

 

if u cant get on someone while being invisible u need to stop playing games, my lvl 11 troll operative has no problem geting on people lol.

Well, this one obviously didn't read the thread. I don't want an operative gap closer that keeps us in or refreshes stealth, and any operative that uses snipe needs to reroll. Also, lol at another person who doesn't have a 50 operative saying stealth is a perfect gap closer and the class needs no tweaks whatsoever.

[XForget]

how about this, give operative a teleport button that puts him right behind someone while staying cloaked? or how about giveing u snipe from cloak? Is that enough?

 

if u cant get on someone while being invisible u need to stop playing games, my lvl 11 troll operative has no problem geting on people lol.

 

We don't need a gap closer out of combat, we need one in combat. I think we all know how to press the stealth then sneak button and walk to someone. Its the fact that because there are so many ccs, slows and pushbacks and pulls in this game that we need a gap closer. Its like people thinking that operatives can crit for 6 - 7k no youre retarded im 5/5 BM, if you think with even full BM + expertise buffs that we can even regularly get that 5k medal with the surge + operative nerf you've lost it.

[Ryotknife]

They really can't do that anymore.

 

they can still do that, and im full champ geared.

[Xippin]

I'm sure they would like to:

 

1. Knock people on their faces (assassins/shadows can do it, and they have sprint / knockback)

2. Stealth (assassins can do it, and they have sprint / knockback)

3. Have a 30% armor pen buff WITH a poison DoT (Guardians can do a 40% armor debuff, and they have leap/push (20% passive 20% ability); Mercs can do 20% from range and have a knockback)

4. Have self heals (Sorcs/Sages and Mercs/Commandos both have self heals, and can benefit from alacrity to boost heal casting speed, where as alacrity will not help a scoundral dps in anything but healing...the others get faster cast/channel times for their dps abilities as well as heals.

 

Balance does not mean everyone has the same abilities. Balance means that, in a given scenario, a given class has a chance to come out on top. I do fine in PvP without a gap closer. Am I magical or are you just whining?

 

I could honestly care less, I still win 1 vs 2 and 1 vs 3 fights even after the balancing they did to us. But our team utility is sorely lacking when it comes to huttball. I do not necassarily think we need a gap closer, but I would like to see the range on tendon blast (our snare) increased to maybe 15 feet from 10, which would allow us to still be able to snare people from a moderate distance and increase the range on quick shot (stupid little energy intensive spam ability) increased to 20 feet from 10. I also feel that Fight or Flight / Energy screen belongs in the healing tree as well. I think FoF / ES in the dps tree is overpowered.

 

As for the healing scoundrals do, I do not feel our healing is above and beyond Sorcs/Sages or Mercs/Commandos since they can benefit from alacrity, and we can't. At most on our 8 second Mez (breaks on ANY damage) we can get 2 heals off (2.5 seconds per heal), and only 1 heal off during our 4 second stun, which also means to do that...we don't do ANY damage to you while we are healing and we have no way to out-distance you too get more then that number of heals off in that timeframe due to our only run speed buff outside of our 2 min cooldown (disappearing act/vanish) being a result of our stun and even then it's only 30% which still won't get you out of range of a ranged dps/leaper unless you are standing right next to something to LoS them.

 

Mez

8 - 1.5 (global cooldown) = 6.5 - 2.5 (heal 1) = 3.5 - 2.5 (heal 2) = 1 Second left

 

Stun

4 - 1.5 (global cooldown) = 2.5 - 2.5 (heal 1) = 0 (very difficult to do, easily interrupted)

[Xippin]

they can still do that, and im full champ geared.

 

I'm 4/5 BM with power > surge > crit stacking now and while I will admit I OCCASIONALLY crit for 5k, it's just that...BARELY 5k (highest is 5092) on a 50 sorc with no pvp gear. Using Expertise buff + Rakata attack adrenal + BM Power relic I will OCCASIONALLY break 5k on a 12k sorc. Any Champion geared sorc with 16k+ hp's...won't happen.

 

SS or it doesn't happen.

[raelimar]

flash grenade is on a short cooldown. it lets you get in melee range. use it. if it doesn't get you in melee range, it gets you within tendon blast range, and root isnt effected by resolve.

 

lol, what? Operative Flashbang has a 10m range, it's basically a melee attack. And it's not on a short cooldown - it's 60 seconds. Force Leap is 15 seconds, Force Speed is 30 seconds. Troll more. This thread isn't going to get any constructive replies. People are still butthurt about getting blown apart by Operatives before 1.1, so they're not going to care about or even consider the actual shortcomings of the class.

 

As for Stealth...yes, we have it. So do Shadows. That doesn't prevent them from using Force Speed.

Edited February 19, 2012 by raelimar

[Vamina]

they can still do that, and im full champ geared.

Like the other guy said, if you're hitting a target with no gear that's completely unbuffed while blowing every offensive cooldown in your arsenal, you might break 5k damage on a crit. That however does not mean the class is fine without an in-combat gap closer, because (to spin the broken record again) EVERY other melee class has one along with better survivability.

[Ich_Bin]

This thread isn't going to get any constructive replies. People are still butthurt about getting blown apart by Operatives before 1.1, so they're not going to care about or even consider the actual shortcomings of the class.

 

Sad but true.

[Wheem]

Healing spec'd Scoundrels and Operatives need some buffs to survivability, escape option(s), damage output (probably in the form of much lower energy consumption on attacks, rather than messing with per-hit damage too much), and utility.

 

LOLBURST!!1!one!!1! (aka, Scrapper or Concealment) spec'd Scoundrels and Operatives need some buffs to survivability and some nerfs to damage output. They're hardly the only ones that need to do less damage, though. If there's to be any sort of skill-based PvP in this game, the time-to-kill for certain classes/specs simply needs to be increased; Scoundrels and Operatives are still offenders in this regard, just not the only ones.

 

Once the damage output comes down a bit, I think we can have a realistic discussion about the ability to close gaps easier. As it stands right now it'd just make things feel even more like a first person shooter, "Oh he blew the 3 minute CD to break my stun, then snared me and started running - LOLGAPCLOSE LOLCRIT LOLCRIT - k he's dead."

Edited February 19, 2012 by Wheem

[vedranpauk]

Healing spec'd Scoundrels and Operatives need some buffs to survivability, escape option(s), damage output (probably in the form of much lower energy consumption on attacks, rather than messing with per-hit damage too much), and utility.

 

 

 

On contrary I'm founding that my hybrid heal spec (23/16/2) has just awesome survival , ye I'm running in full PvP gear with 3 pts of BM gear , usualy can tank 2-3 folks in lesser gear rank for some time , only part where I found our healing lackluster is when lacking TA/UH in emergency situations with people on very low... As we don't have instant shield target and our instant heal needs TA/UH...

 

Only change I would love is ability to produce TA/UH on demand via some skill with 30sec-1min CD... As 2sec cast and 30% RNG on HoT still ain't reliable and going into melee to blaster whip someone isn't option for high end PvP situations...

[Wheem]

On contrary I'm founding that my hybrid heal spec (23/16/2) has just awesome survival , ye I'm running in full PvP gear with 3 pts of BM gear , usualy can tank 2-3 folks in lesser gear rank for some time , only part where I found our healing lackluster is when lacking TA/UH in emergency situations with people on very low... As we don't have instant shield target and our instant heal needs TA/UH...

 

Only change I would love is ability to produce TA/UH on demand via some skill with 30sec-1min CD... As 2sec cast and 30% RNG on HoT still ain't reliable and going into melee to blaster whip someone isn't option for high end PvP situations...

Survivability largely depends on who you're fighting. My Scoundrel is in primarily Champion gear with a couple Centurion pieces (blaster pistol, chest, and 1 implant, if I remember correctly), so I'm not exactly undergeared - at least by reasonable (Republic) standards. I'm currently Rank 56 (oh boy is it slow to rank as a healer; my Sage is already almost caught up and hasn't invested nearly the same time and effort), so Battlemaster isn't in the cards yet.

 

When I'm in games with bad players who turn around to fight someone else every time I Dirty Kick them and/or run around an obstacle, then yea my survivability is pretty good. In those cases I can sometimes go entire matches without ever dying, but all it really takes is 1 or 2 players who know what they're doing and I'll get rolled pretty easily. Sometimes I can even get rolled by bads, since the Imperials hold Ilum basically 24/7 and such an enormous number of them are Battlemasters (seriously, I'll see more Imperial Battlemasters in one single game than I'll see on the Republic side in a week).

 

My Sage, on the other hand, is wearing inferior gear and has 0 points in the healing tree right now, yet still has superior survivability. Force Speed, a Knockback that roots for 2-5 seconds, 30m range on interrupt/snare/stun, and the ability to remove every melee snare except for Tendon Blast (which is the least common one to be hit with) all together makes for some pretty solid kiting ability (not to mention Huttball utility with all that + Rescue).

 

I'll also point out that Operative/Scoundrel healers are by far the easiest for me to kill on my Sage (or my Scoundrel for that matter, during the rare times I'm spec'd DPS). The only way they can possibly escape me is with Disappearing Act, and that usually only works if I'm being newbish and not anticipating it with a Force in Balance at the ready.

[rlhaas]

For all of the ignorant here, let me give you the definition of 'gap closer': Gap-closer refers to an ability to travel a medium-length distance instantly or very quickly. The best known example of this is probably Blink, although other abilities such as Grapple, Force Leap, and Jet Charge would apply as well. Hey mouth-breathers, does stealth fall into this category? Um, no. So stop it with the 'stealth is your gap closer, duh!' posts, because you're wrong. Learn your dang PvP.

[deltaminus]

So stop it with the 'stealth is your gap closer, duh!' posts, because you're wrong. Learn your dang PvP.

 

Considering we can spec into a movement speed boost when we vanish, most have it spot on when they say stealth is our gap closer. The fact that the movement speed boost is tied to vanishing, while the one Assassins get is not, is what really irks me.

 

The other situational gap closer we have is taking cover, although I haven't been able to reproduce some of the random interactions I've had from taking cover. Sometimes I'll get pulled to sandbags in Huttball when I use it. Once it even pulled me across a gap to the sandbags on the scaffold above the pit, like when someone leaps across, again this is something I can't seem to control or reproduce.

 

So separating the movement speed boost from vanishing, or making the roll from taking cover more consistent and predictable would be nice.

Edited February 19, 2012 by deltaminus

[mandrillagon]

Operative:

 

-Worst healer in the game

-Worst stealther in the game

-Worst DPS in the game

-NO utility in Huttball

 

That is just how bad op/scoundrel are in pvp. In pve side of the game serious raid ops groups, and hard mode, nightmare groups will not even take an op healer or dps spec because they gimp the group.

[saido]

isnt stealth a gap closer?

 

+1 (10char)

[rlhaas]

Considering we can spec into a movement speed boost when we vanish, most have it spot on when they say stealth is our gap closer. The fact that the movement speed boost is tied to vanishing, while the one Assassins get is not, is what really irks me.

 

The other situational gap closer we have is taking cover, although I haven't been able to reproduce some of the random interactions I've had from taking cover. Sometimes I'll get pulled to sandbags in Huttball when I use it. Once it even pulled me across a gap to the sandbags on the scaffold above the pit, like when someone leaps across, again this is something I can't seem to control or reproduce.

 

 

Dude. When you vanish, you're either already IN melee range and are re-vanishing to apply another HS trying to kill off a player OR you're trying to get the Hell out of dodge. THAT'S what CS is for, it's not a damn gap closer. I love how you quoted a tiny part of what I said, and conveniently left off the exact definition of a gap closer that proves outright that stealth in ANY incarnation does not fit there. Gimme a break. How the heck is taking cover a gap closer?! READ THE DANG DEFINITION. If you're taking cover as an operative, you're doing it wrong. Like you said, go ahead and try it in battle and get pulled all over the place instead of where you want to go. Why should we have to rely on such wonky mechanics? When you see a Jedi leap from the ground to the second level in Huttball, THAT'S a gap closer. When you get grappled from behind THAT'S a gap closer. When you get Jet Charged, THAT'S gap closer.

Edited February 19, 2012 by rlhaas

[pgilli]

Whoever is saying Operatives open for as much as any kind of shadow/assassin should be flogged. Shadows do great dmg, but their opening options are lulz (lol 2 second stun & minor dmg) after that it takes at least 3 gcds to properly ramp up for their burst (for infil anyway, didn't get on the telekinetic bandwagon and dots are for casters)... at which point they can drop some bombs. I don't even know many of operatives abilities, but when you can open with a stun and lol burst someone for 50% hp or more well... if you don't see my point by now about opening capabilities you fail.

 

Secondly, Ops do not need a gap closer or a spammable slow cause a different class has one... it's called class homogenization, which is what ruined wow and if you keep crying will ruin this game. If you want a tool your class doesn't have, but a different one does REROLL.

 

Fallenlore - 50 Jedi Shadow

Hellwraith - 50 Trooper Commando

Rakata Mind Prison

[saido]

Dude. When you vanish, you're either already IN melee range and are re-vanishing to apply another HS trying to kill off a player OR you're trying to get the Hell out of dodge...

 

You're right with the definition of a gap-closer -- I took the position of 'Eh. You have stealth" which serves the role of allowing you to approach your target from a position of advantage in a sense 'in lieu of a gap closer'.

 

I play a Sniper and a BH (Merc) -- sure I see Marauders and Powertechs leap from platform to platform. Or I get grappled / force-pulled into flame. And sure I wonder what that Jetpack I have is for exactly. Sure we have some short-range knockbacks for some breathing room for half-a-second.

 

Stealth is a huge advantage for a player. Giving Operatives the ability to 'leap' like a Marauder... That's a huge advantage gain! If we're going for that can my Sniper have Stealth and can my Merc jet-charge as well?