A Gap Closer for Operatives

[Vamina]

Operatives do not open for more than a properly specced deception Assassin.

Operatives and Assassins are not even close to the same DPS outside of stealth. Assassins out DPS them significantly.

 

You have never played an Operative so stop posting random ****.

Wrong on both counts.

 

My main is a 50 concealment Operative, and I have about a 50/50 win/lose ratio against Assassins outside of stealth depending on who manages their cooldowns better. If you think an Operative can't even come close to an Assassin's dps outside of stealth, you must be doing something wrong.

[Kazomir]

For classes that in lore have armors that "provide ease of movement"

Scoundrels and operatives definetly cant move faster than a trooper, who is armed with huge cannon and bulky armor.

[belialle]

As a healer, I'd much rather have an AoE knockback or some sort of AoE stun that doesn't break on damage. Flashbang is fairly useless in PvP. :] Edited February 16, 2012 by belialle

[Mazikeen]

Last time I played my scoundrel he had stealth as a form of gap closing and tendon blast as reliable snare...

 

This

 

What exactly do you guys want? Do you want a Paladin with an IWIN button or something?

[Mazikeen]

Not realistically in Warzones, no. In PVE, yes. A proper gap closer would let us get into melee range while we are already flagged for combat. Something that would mean we don't spend half a huttball game returning from the pits.

 

1. I use stealth just fine in WZs. Being able to move from point A to point B without being snared, stunned or attacked = win

 

2. Learn to not stand where a knockback will kick you into the pit. I'm level 41, valor rank 36 and got kicked into the pits a total of 2 times ever. EVEREVER!

 

Positioning, it's not just for the bedroom

[Vamina]

This

 

What exactly do you guys want? Do you want a Paladin with an IWIN button or something?

We want to be balanced along with the other melee classes, who all have gap closers that can be used in combat. I personally am not asking for a power that re-stealths and closes the gap, as that would be overpowered, but even our snare is worse than other snares even with investing in Pin Down.

[OldxLady]

Sigh... Go play Sentinel where we have 1 gapcloser and 1 channeled CC and 1 snare that bugs out 50% of the time...

[DrekorSilverfang]

Sigh... Go play Sentinel where we have 1 gapcloser and 1 channeled CC and 1 snare that bugs out 50% of the time...

 

I'm fine on my mara with 12s gap closer, 80% run buff, 4s invis/invuln + 30% runbuff, 20% damage reduction, 50% melee/ranged defense + 25% tech/force reduction and 99% damage reduction cooldowns.

 

Op has cloaking screen... oh and I guess evasion which doesn't work against any tech/force attacks... yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Edited February 16, 2012 by DrekorSilverfang

[Howbadisbad]

Wrong on both counts.

 

My main is a 50 concealment Operative, and I have about a 50/50 win/lose ratio against Assassins outside of stealth depending on who manages their cooldowns better. If you think an Operative can't even come close to an Assassin's dps outside of stealth, you must be doing something wrong.

 

No, that Assassin was doing it wrong. There is no reason Assassin should lose to Operative if they both start out of stealth other than skill/gear difference. If you think Operatives have DPS on par with Assassin then you are going against the general consensus of the hardcore PvE community.

 

50/50 win/lose ratio is not reflective of class balance because this game is not balanced around 1v1, and skill and gear are not factored in to give a less biased statistic.

 

Here's an analogy: You're a really good frame carpenter. You've been building houses for 10 years. You've just entered a competition with your co-worker to see who can nail the floor off faster. He stands on one side of the floor with his nail gun, you on the other side with your nail gun.

 

You begin, matching each other nail for nail. A couple minutes into the competition your boss comes over, takes away your nail gun and gives you a regular framing hammer. You adapt and begin hammering those nails in by hand as fast as you can. You're so good, in fact, that you're almost keeping pace with your co-worker, even while disadvantaged. But, the longer the competition goes on the farther ahead of you he pulls.

 

A few minutes later your boss comes and takes away your hammer and gives you a brick. Even though you're upset, you still want to win. So you're there banging nails in to the floor with your brick. At some point you have enough, realizing that no matter your skill level you will never be able to compete with your equally skilled co-worker who has the proper tool for the job.

 

You say something to your boss, trying to explain to him how he just nerfed you, when the cut-man standing off to the side, who doesn't know a thing about running a nail-gun, starts laughing at you, telling you that you just suck, and if you weren't so bad you'd still be able to compete. He starts telling you stories of how his uncle JimBob can nail 300k nails in a single workday, or how he wtfpwns Champion carpenters with a handful of nails and a small tinkerer's hammer, and how you should be able to do the same.

 

Okay, I've digressed enough... but, you'll either get the point or you won't.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Howbadisbad

[Mazikeen]

We want to be balanced along with the other melee classes

 

I'm sure they would like to:

 

1. Knock people on their faces

2. Stealth

3. Have a 30% armor pen buff WITH a poison DoT

4. Have self heals

 

Balance does not mean everyone has the same abilities. Balance means that, in a given scenario, a given class has a chance to come out on top. I do fine in PvP without a gap closer. Am I magical or are you just whining?

[Niaoru]

Sigh... Go play Sentinel where we have 1 gapcloser and 1 channeled CC and 1 snare that bugs out 50% of the time...

 

I did, and even though I'm only level 23(don't even have channeled CC yet), and most everyone is a considerable amount higher level then me, Huttball is infinitely more enjoyable on my Sentinel then my Scoundrel. Even having the opportunity to jump back up to the top after getting pulled or knocked down is satisfying enough.

 

I'm sure Sentinel/Marauders have an annoying time in Huttball, I'm not debating that. All I'm saying is try only playing a class without any sort of jump/knockback/pull/sprint for a week or so, and you will be so grateful and excited to have that one gap closer that you have now.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Niaoru

[vindianajones]

I'm not trying to be an *** here, but hasn't stealth always been considered a gap closer? If you need a better snare, so be it, but giving an additional gap closer to a stealth class with high burst seems to be too much.

 

EDIT: Then again, now that I think about it, Assassins/Shadows have stealth and Force Speed, so maybe I'm mistaken. I don't play an Operative and don't see many of them around anymore, so it's kind of hard for me to tell what they do or do not need.

Edited February 16, 2012 by vindianajones

[Niaoru]

I'm not trying to be an *** here, but hasn't stealth always been considered a gap closer? If you need a better snare, so be it, but giving an additional gap closer to a stealth class with high burst seems to be too much.

 

It has, but this game you don't drop combat as easily as other games. You can't just wait 6 seconds or whatever and restealth. If you get hit by a coincidental AoE from someone that isn't near you, you are now stuck in combat and unable to restealth until that person dies.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Niaoru

[Howbadisbad]

I'm sure they would like to:

 

1. Knock people on their faces

2. Stealth

3. Have a 30% armor pen buff WITH a poison DoT

4. Have self heals

 

Balance does not mean everyone has the same abilities. Balance means that, in a given scenario, a given class has a chance to come out on top. I do fine in PvP without a gap closer. Am I magical or are you just whining?

 

You are wrong. Balance is how much a class brings to the table vs other classes. Operatives don't bring anything another class can't, so they are underpowered.

 

Also, most melee classes do have most of the following + much more things that Operatives don't.

1. Knockback (Everyone except juggs I believe)

2. Mara and Assassin have this

3. Certain classes like Assassin get armor pen on certain moves

4. They tend to have better survivability and/or self heals

[Skryve]

I would LOVE to have any of the following:

 

a) Shadowstep (push button, pop up behind target), even with a limited range (say 20m) it would still be extremely helpful for getting back on a healer who is just running in circles cleansing our snare.

 

b) Evasive Imperative (evasion gives 30% speed) moved to concealment, or just lower in the medic tree.

 

c) Lower CD on cloaking screen, would make stealth a more usable gap closer and wouldn't blatantly unbalanced things with the nerf to hidden strike.

[Mavkiel]

Of course agents need a gap closer. Our ranged attacks are basically a joke. Every other class say except for mercs have some means of getting into range of a target fast. And they at least are a ranged class.

 

As it stands, soon as I exit stealth I either kill the target within a few seconds (which is impossible if the target was at full health, or has a bubble) or I just do some damage and die.

 

Escape, isn't an option. Cloaking screen? That thing is a sad joke, 2 minute timer if its spec'd and it breaks on any dot. Purge the dots you say? Well chances are good one of a eight councliers you just got grouped against dotted you. Oh and the real kicker? Using your two minute timer and dying to a dot or ae gives that person a free 1vs1 assassin medal. Grats, you just made his day.

 

Attack or jugg/sorc or republic equivalent? If they have half a brain all they do is use throw/knockback on you and go about their business. You will not catch up to them in time. Also, since your in combat, no stealth for you.

[Howbadisbad]

I would love to see Operatives without stupid high cooldowns on their bread and butter moves and energy costs adjusted to stop Operatives from going energy starved for using these moves more than once.

 

Backstab 9s cooldown

Hidden strike Requires stealth

Shiv 6s cooldown

Lacerate Requires HS and Shiv

 

 

Seriously ***. No other class has a 9s cooldown on their main damage dealer.

[FalmeseReb]

I would love to see Operatives without stupid high cooldowns on their bread and butter moves and energy costs adjusted to stop Operatives from going energy starved for using these moves more than once.

 

Backstab 9s cooldown

Hidden strike Requires stealth

Shiv 6s cooldown

Lacerate Requires HS and Shiv

 

 

Seriously ***. No other class has a 9s cooldown on their main damage dealer.

 

Focus guardian has a 9s cd on force slam.... thats their main damage dealer.

[Tokosteef]

I would love to see Operatives without stupid high cooldowns on their bread and butter moves and energy costs adjusted to stop Operatives from going energy starved for using these moves more than once.

 

Backstab 9s cooldown

Hidden strike Requires stealth

Shiv 6s cooldown

Lacerate Requires HS and Shiv

 

 

Seriously ***. No other class has a 9s cooldown on their main damage dealer.

 

dont forget you need to be behind an opponent for backstab.

[Howbadisbad]

Focus guardian has a 9s cd on force slam.... thats their main damage dealer.

 

I don't think tanks are supposed to put out good DPS tbh.

 

What about sundering strike? Armor pen and decent damage + builds focus

Edited February 16, 2012 by Howbadisbad

[Migrayn]

Any class that can stunlock kill from out of the shadows doesnt need additions tbh

 

You guys are the vanilla wow rogues

 

Um stunlock requires more then 1 stun. No operative can kill me with his opening. Their hidden strike only knockes me down for 1.5s they can land 1 more attack usually before I cam up. Then I just heal and run or stun them.

 

The most they can do is about 40-50% from burst then you can just run away.

 

Other classes can crit just as hard, yet are much more durable out of stealth.

 

Stealth is not a gap closer it is for opening only. A gap closer is something used on runners or against ranged who are shooting you, or against kiters.

 

Shadows/sins have stealth yet they have force speed as well. They can also spec for a pull and do not loose stealth while doing so.

 

Seems a bit lopsided to me.

[savionen]

When you compare Operatives to Shadows, Shadows have Force Run, but they don't have a ranged auto-attack nor really any ranged attacks.

 

Even though almost all damage with an Operative comes from melee ofc, they still have a few ranged attacks. Giving them Shadowstep would just make Operatives flat out superior to Shadows.

[Mavkiel]

When you compare Operatives to Shadows, Shadows have Force Run, but they don't have a ranged auto-attack nor really any ranged attacks.

 

Even though almost all damage with an Operative comes from melee ofc, they still have a few ranged attacks. Giving them Shadowstep would just make Operatives flat out superior to Shadows.

 

Ranged auto attack, are you kidding me? Anyone who is using that for dps is in idiot. at best its something to do while you close distance. I'd gladly give that up for any sort of gap closer. Hell I'd toss in grenade as well.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Mavkiel

[Vamina]

I'm sure they would like to:

 

1. Knock people on their faces

2. Stealth

3. Have a 30% armor pen buff WITH a poison DoT

4. Have self heals

 

Balance does not mean everyone has the same abilities. Balance means that, in a given scenario, a given class has a chance to come out on top. I do fine in PvP without a gap closer. Am I magical or are you just whining?

I believe you said in your earlier post that your Operative is level 41. Since we like making numbered lists, here's one for you.

 

1. You haven't played an Operative at level 50, and thus haven't seen the affects of pvp gear from the viewpoint of one.

2. You seem to be trying very hard to claim Operatives are totally balanced, which leads me to believe yours is just a garbage alt and would like to see less competition for your main.

3. To say I'm whining is ridiculous, as I have done no such thing in any post I've made. I even said in my initial post that I agreed with the balancing of Hidden Strike and would have no issue with a possible gap closer being a talented ability to avoid the possibility of game breaking hybrid builds.

4. Your list is made up of stuff that is done better by other classes.

[XForget]

Ranged auto attack, are you kidding me? Anyone who is using that for dps is an idiot. at best its something to do while you close distance. I'd gladly give that up for any sort of gap closer. Hell I'd toss in grenade as well.

 

Our ranged is great for Ilum wars especially grenade, but I wouldn't care if my rifle shot *********** paintballs to have a gap closer, remember kids, stealth is out of combat, stop using that as an excuse to say operatives do not need a fix.