Remember WoW's World PvP?

[Zlashie]

Yup, the WoW Devs emphasized on bringing World PvP back to its former Vanilla glory.

 

I sure hope this is true. We can only wait and see....

 

If I got a cookie everytime the Blizzard devs promised something.

 

Ok first, vanilla world pvp was based on community, so the first thing Blizzard need to do is remove Cross-server features, reduce/change their LFG tool system and balance server faction.

 

- Remove Cross server stuff, Check

 

After that, we ofcourse want to make sure people atleast are on "foot" when they pvp otherwise they will just fly away from eachother. This means the next zone has to be flyfree OR blizzard will remove the ability to fly in azeroth.

 

- Remove/Reduce the power to fly with flyingmounts, Check

 

Ofcourse, we would also want fast paced action which isnt based on a "IWIN" stat, so this would mean removing Resillience because Resillience is the biggest difference between vanilla and tbc+ pvp.

 

- Remove/Reduce Resillience, Check

 

Finally In order for world pvp to happen, Blizzard would need to create a "zone" were most instances are, e.g Black Rock Mountain which had: BRD, UBRS, LBRS, Molten Core, BWL, Most of the fun stuff at that time.

 

- Make Sure Instance locations become popular zones, Check

CONCLUSSION

Dont count on Vanilla World pvp to return. Blizzard allready made too many changes against it, and if they are seriously going to change all of the above things then Blizzard are the best trolls in the history of gaming.

[EternalFinality]

World PvP has two phases.

 

1. The leveling phase. This is the best part of world pvp, when you meet and fight other people around your level (or sometimes above your level) while leveling. This is also your first exposure to how classes match up 1 on 1 and it provides valuable experience.

 

2. The max level phase. This is when you world PvP simply with the goal of screwing with others. This in turn causes others to rally to the defense and larger conflicts break out.

 

Contrary to what some people say, you CAN design your game for both of these phases. World PvP doesn't "just happen." I'll use some examples from WoW, where they did design for it, but you might not have even noticed the subtlety.

 

How you design for 1)

 

• You must have a zone that most people will pass through, either because it is a hub to other zones or questing lines pass through the area. High traffic, if you will. In Booty Bay in WoW, the boat was NOT directly next to the flight point - you had to move through the city to get to it. In TOR you teleport everywhere.
   
  
• You must have various level ranges passing through this area for various reasons. This is key.
   
  
• You must have both faction's quests take them to the same general area, such that players will come into contact with each other. At this point conflict is inevitable.
  

 

Stranglethorn Vale (also Tarren Mill) in WoW fit these constraints, and that's where most of the world PvP occurred.

 

TOR fails the above conditions because the leveling phase is too short, and because all their planets keep the factions sequestered in their own areas, crippling conflict before it starts.

 

Their obscenely lax death penalties also give little incentive to fight anyone else.

 

How you design for 2)

 

• You must have an interesting feature in the zone that causes people to return to it. In Stranglethorn Vale's case in WoW, it was the arena in the center where you could fight people on your own faction to the death - a unique interesting location. Later they added the fishing contest, and a nearby raid zone.
   
  
• You must have people pass through this zone to reach end game content. The "jump" to reach Upper Blackrock Spire is a perfect example, as were the chains to Molten Core.
   
  
• You can have a sparse resource that people want that respawns infrequently. World bosses like the dragons in WoW were a good example. An inbalanced faction couldn't "zerg" the dragons because only the group that tagged it got the loot so it was either a race to tag or other guilds just left. So you wouldn't get overwhelmed by one faction. Another group on the other faction, even a small group, all but guaranteed you would be unable to beat these bosses if you weren't allowed to fight in peace. Thus, fierce competition and world PvP occurs around these resources.
  

 

Ilum fails to meet ANY of the above criteria, and that is why it fails.

 

All other end game content doesn't make you travel anywhere, you just teleport there and back with no effort risk or conflict.

Edited February 16, 2012 by EternalFinality

[sheerhatred]

Wow was not pvp. If you want to talk pvp shadow bane and daoc. WoW version of pvp is what is killing the mmo industry with its care are pvp.

[glenbruton]

Tarren Mill was awful. Any sane person hated it!

[Ryotknife]

pvping in Stranglethorn vale while waiting for my 1 hour BG queue.

 

also, not world pvp related but...

 

Alterac valley games that lasted DAYS.

[swils]

Tarren Mill.. using the Hunter's trap exploit to climb 50ft in the air and snipe errrbody... good times.

[Zlashie]

Wow was not pvp. If you want to talk pvp shadow bane and daoc. WoW version of pvp is what is killing the mmo industry with its care are pvp.

 

PvP Means Player Versus Player

 

Last time I checked I am a player, and If I am hitting another Player I am pretty sure that is pvP right there.

 

Also your post is subjective

[Stranden]

Glass half empty?

 

I have fond memories of that time, moreso because everyone was exploring their classes and had little idea of item sets, stats and overpowered talents. People were playing for fun and albeit it lag and zergfests it still rocked!

 

The battlegrounds and arenas had scope but they ruined world pvp. Playing other titles before wow like UO the hard part was being the tough open world where you could get attacked and lose your items. MMO's these days lose that ruthless edge.

 

Thats the thing though. Now you find so much info on the internet before you play the game, and exploring it isnt any fun because the information is so easily obtainable anyway (so everyone else have done it when you finally discover it).

 

The old and good might never work again. Unless they make a huge game with an enormous playerbase on the same server which can keep things alive and kicking!

[Gformutorila]

Remember South Shore and Tarren Mill?

Remember Isle of Quel'Danas?

Remember Booty Bay?

 

Some of the best times I've had... /nostalgia

R.I.P. early days of WoW *sniffles

 

I can just hope that the SWTOR devs can eventually develop World PvP that is half as fun as those moments....

 

I remember and I hated it. Guards in booty bay were bugged for a long time so allies could kill horde in booty bay and the guards did nothing. Or the fact the there were 4 times more allies on my serevr then horde. Which resulted in allies constantly raiding Ogrimar. Also meany horde flight master were constantly getting ganked. What also didn't help that allies have their transpoty inside the city and horde had to run out to take the zep. I remember doing over 4 corps runs to get from the Orgimar gate to the zep. Even getting ganked on the zep was commen.

 

Tarren Mill was a horde ghost town. All the quest givers and flight master were getting killed all the time.

 

Yes world PvP sucked in WoW, early battle zones were great AV lasting for over 12 hours etc. I played arena season 1 and 2. But if you were not a Paladin, Rogue or Druid arena was not for you. if you played resto or enhacement Shamen you had no place in arena.

 

in WoW the classes were balanced based on how populair they were. This meant that Paladin has been overpowered since day one and Shamans did not even have their own developer unlike every other class. Remember the bus shock incedent?

[Dayfax]

Yup, the WoW Devs emphasized on bringing World PvP back to its former Vanilla glory.

 

I sure hope this is true. We can only wait and see....

 

They claim this before every expansion is released & never implement a damn thing around it.

 

It wasn't an accident that world PvP died almost completely after TBC. That was by design.

[wtfnonamefree]

When we look back on events from our youth, we are likely to remember many things as being excellent, or awesome, or brilliant. We just forget how we decided on their excellence or brilliance. With a broader base of experience as an adult, it takes a lot for us to be truly awed. So, we decide that things must have been better when we were younger.

 

(source: http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/ulterior-motives/200908/the-past-is-both-better-and-less-intense-the-present)

[Sabbathius]

I can just hope that the SWTOR devs can eventually develop World PvP that is half as fun as those moments....

 

It never will. Instancing, safe zones, etc. In WoW, NOWHERE was safe! Being in the capital city wasn't safe. Huge, seamless world with zero safety. Taking a boat from one continent to another? Better make sure it's empty! BLAM, Ambush. Will never happen on a shuttle in SWTOR.

 

That's why WoW had 11 mil subs, and SWTOR has...whatever it actually has. It's quite simple.

[Maziline]

Well stated sir, as I completely agree. SWTOR is fun, but I'm afraid I might return for Mists.... >_>

 

Why bother returning to WoW for another crappy expansion when you could play GW2?

[KrustyDog]

Oh god, Tarren Mill.

 

That was the place TO BE!

 

Classic WoW forever has my heart.

 

Indeed, but Quel Danas was mondo epic as well. I literally never left that island for 6 monthes after it started.

[KrustyDog]

I remember and I hated it. Guards in booty bay were bugged for a long time so allies could kill horde in booty bay and the guards did nothing. Or the fact the there were 4 times more allies on my serevr then horde. Which resulted in allies constantly raiding Ogrimar. Also meany horde flight master were constantly getting ganked. What also didn't help that allies have their transpoty inside the city and horde had to run out to take the zep. I remember doing over 4 corps runs to get from the Orgimar gate to the zep. Even getting ganked on the zep was commen.

 

Tarren Mill was a horde ghost town. All the quest givers and flight master were getting killed all the time.

 

Yes world PvP sucked in WoW, early battle zones were great AV lasting for over 12 hours etc. I played arena season 1 and 2. But if you were not a Paladin, Rogue or Druid arena was not for you. if you played resto or enhacement Shamen you had no place in arena.

 

in WoW the classes were balanced based on how populair they were. This meant that Paladin has been overpowered since day one and Shamans did not even have their own developer unlike every other class. Remember the bus shock incedent?

 

Less than 3 days into wow I was in undercity and watched a huge raid. In that moment wow intrigued me like no other game and I went on to play for years. It was and is always the pvp that makes or breaks games.

[Maziline]

It never will. Instancing, safe zones, etc. In WoW, NOWHERE was safe! Being in the capital city wasn't safe. Huge, seamless world with zero safety. Taking a boat from one continent to another? Better make sure it's empty! BLAM, Ambush. Will never happen on a shuttle in SWTOR.

 

That's why WoW had 11 mil subs, and SWTOR has...whatever it actually has. It's quite simple.

 

However while WoW had 11 million subs World PvP was barely in the game, I'm an altoholic and I've leveled a countless amount of alts, and in the recent 1.5 years I've barely seen any player of the opposite team, and if I did it was most likely a level 85.

 

I'm quite sure that a lot of people will have grown tired of the game before the patch with new content that comes out in march, and hopefully SWTOR and WoW will lose a whole lot of subscribers when GW2 comes out, and then the developers will have to work hard and make good content to keep subscribers.

[Mayams]

Glad you liked it, I didn't. I was one of those Horde newbies trying to level up but couldn't cause the whole place was overran with Alliance zergers trying to out compete each other to Grand Marshal.

 

I loved it personally. I was a 20ish Shaman going for his water totem (before they just handed em to you) and I HAD to go to Tarren Mill for the quest. That made it the most challenging quest I've ever had to this day. I had to bring along a party of friends (all of similar level) and we had to apply tactics and ingenuity just to get me to the town, AFTER 3+ HOURS! I didn't just skip down the road and snatch up a glass of water before porting out.

 

Additionally, I used to love stifling raids en route, I remember holding back 3 raids at the door to BM back in the day. I remember riding raid strong to Ony's cave only to find another raid grouping up to go in - so we steam rolled and proceeded to smack them back down until every last one managed to sneak into her lair, we could care less if we ever saw that dragon we were having too much fun. I remember skirmishes between me and a couple friends and a few alliance that escalated over the course of hours until dozens were in the zone going at it.

 

I remember a few high level sith ganking me also... yay.

 

P.S Who tried to grind to marshall/warlord in open world PvP, was that even possible? I remember that grind too although not well - days without sleep do that to ya I guess.

[Bullwrath]

Remember Books? Before the time of required visual stimulus and twitchy controls?

 

Video Games suck putridly but MMOs while better than video games couldn't shake a stick to Crime & Punishment, Lord of the Flies, or Odsseus... those were the days!

 

You are now my hero.

[Bullwrath]

It never will. Instancing, safe zones, etc. In WoW, NOWHERE was safe! Being in the capital city wasn't safe. Huge, seamless world with zero safety.

Except Shattrath. And Dalaran. And dungeons. And raids.

 

But other than those places (where players spent most of their time), there were no safe places.

 

 

That's why WoW had 11 mil subs, and SWTOR has...whatever it actually has. It's quite simple.

 

WoW had about 5 million subs in North American and Europe at it's zenith. It has many fewer than that now. Most of the 1.8 million subscriptions that WoW has lost have been lost in these most lucrative markets. SWTOR has 1.7 million now in those very places.

 

 

Faulty statements, wrapped up in faulty logic, all wrapped up in a tinfoil hat.

 

 

As for the OP remembering "world PvP in WoW" with rose-colored nostalgia, if it happened on your server, awesome, but it evolved into 4 people fighting to the death in Arenas being the focus of that game's PvP. WoW PvP has been declining for years.

[EternalFinality]

Except Shattrath. And Dalaran. And dungeons. And raids.

 

We're talking about before Burning Crusade. I thought that much was obvious.

 

SWTOR has 1.7 million now in those very places.

 

You don't believe Blizzard, but you believe Bioware.

 

There is a term for this....

[Ngamok]

Remember before WoW ruined MMOs with carebare instant gratification themeparks?

 

SWTOR sucks putridly but WoW while better than SWTOR couldn't shake a stick at EvE, SWG, or DaoC...those were the days!

 

Only played SWG and WoW but I agree. Latter half of TBC brought about the welfare epics and that is what people expect now. Instant gratification about doing something solo rather than doing end game content with others since MMOs are all about Massively Multiplayer. Maybe we should rename most of these games MSOs (Massivle Singalplayer) because all people do is log in and do dailies for coin and Q for battlegrounds by themselves and then complain they got killed by premades.