Pros and Cons of Dual Advanced Classes

[Reynnas]

Copied and pasted from the Community Q & A this past Friday. BTW this is not the first post from a dev on the subject.

 

*Aurozia: Will there be a dual specialization system in the future? Will there be a possibility of changing advance classes as well?

 

Daniel Erickson: We have no plans for switching advanced classes - which we see as fundamentally different class designs- but dual spec is in the works and coming soon.*

 

That isn't a definite no! But this is an argument as to why there should and why there shouldn't be, not why BioWare is saying. It's your opinions, not what BW says.

[Emeda]

I'll compile a list of why and why there shouldn't be dual advanced classes based on feedback and my own opinions, as well as solutions to allowing them. I'll start off by listing why I think there should be both advanced classes available(at a certain point).

 

By saying solutions to allowing them are you not admitting that you will be bias in what you say. To me sound like a let me here the pros and cons and I will take all the pros and then tell everyone why we should have duel AC specs

 

Pros/Why

-Feeling more bonded to your character

Not really since one day you can be a healer and 5 min later you can be a tank then 10 mins later your a DPS. Yes your playing the same toon but even you dont know who you really are.

-Less time spent leveling alts(depends on whether or not you enjoy it)

Well right now thats the only thing to do in this game.Just look at all the people who love this game and 99% say role an alt if you want to play the game and have content.

-Less time spent gearing alts(datacrons especially)

Thats what 2-3 hours to get them all (minus the ballon ride and the +10)

-More trade due to people(who don't enjoy leveling alts) buying craftable items for both of their ACs

What craftable items do you really by in this game? really, that you would actually list this as a pro.

 

 

Cons/Why Not

-People may need for other AC(Solution: Master looter or need only available if the armor type is equippable for that AC; Due to no cross-realm LFG, you don't have to group with a person again[ignore them])

-Less diversity(Switching between two characters isn't any more diverse than using the same character)

-Possibly less materials/crafted items for certain professions due to limit on a single character

-ACs are completely different classes(Wrong, each AC shares the same primary stats so ACs are really just different playstyles)

 

Solutions

-At level 50, make a quest chain for each class(large preferably) that allows you to respec one or both of your specs to either AC aka you can have one spec as a sage and one as a shadow, both shadows and the ability to change one to sage, etc. and only have to pay normal respec price to to switch a spec between either AC.

 

No, just please stop with the Duel spec with AC options. Your pros are pointless and all it does is allow you to be everything in the game. Tank healer and DPS.

 

Solution: leave it the way it is and dont allow duels specs of AC or even duel specs. If its not broken dont fix it because Bioware will end up breaking it when they fix it.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Emeda

[Lord_Scythe]

ACs are not classes. You choose your class, like Jedi Knight, at the creation point.

 

This is the best explanation of class I have seen on this board.

 

Jedi Knight would be your story. Your AC is your class either Jedi Guardian or Jedi Sentinel.

 

To OP:

 

Your not getting dual AC. There were polls done and the majority of the community were against it. Sounded like the Dev team did not like the idea either from some of their posts.

[ExarchCathedra]

Con: Cheesy munchkin min/max male bovine fecal material.

 

Pro: No worse than multiple 'specializations'; once something is broken it doesn't really matter into how many pieces.

[Reynnas]

If you want to arbitrarily define "class" as something that must be chosen at level 1, then that's your choice. I'll go with the game designer's definition of class.

 

The name "advanced class" means it comes from the same standard or generalization but more advanced or specialized in a certain direction, as show below.

 

ad·vanced

adjective

1.placed ahead or forward: with one foot advanced.

2.ahead or far or further along in progress, complexity, knowledge, skill, etc.: an advanced class in Spanish; to take a course in advanced mathematics; Our plans are too advanced to make the change now.

3.pertaining to or embodying ideas, practices, attitudes, etc., taken as being more enlightened or liberal than the standardized, established, or traditional

 

*Only quoting the definition because that argument is somewhat off-topic and I'd like to put it to rest.

[Emeda]

Your not getting dual AC. There were polls done and the majority of the community were against it. Sounded like the Dev team did not like the idea either from some of their posts.

 

What polls? any links to them.

[Reynnas]

Pros/Why

-Feeling more bonded to your character

Not really since one day you can be a healer and 5 min later you can be a tank then 10 mins later your a DPS. Yes your playing the same toon but even you dont know who you really are.

-Less time spent leveling alts(depends on whether or not you enjoy it)

Well right now thats the only thing to do in this game.Just look at all the people who love this game and 99% say role an alt if you want to play the game and have content.

-Less time spent gearing alts(datacrons especially)

Thats what 2-3 hours to get them all (minus the ballon ride and the +10)

-More trade due to people(who don't enjoy leveling alts) buying craftable items for both of their ACs

What craftable items do you really by in this game? really, that you would actually list this as a pro.

 

-I feel more powerful if I can choose to be any of the three, rather than an army of alts specialized into one AC.

-I personally enjoy PvP quite a bit in this game, and even though there aren't as many endgame options as in WoW or Rift, there will eventually be more as the games evolves.

-2-3 hours I could spent doing something I enjoy and getting something more powerful. And a response to this would probably be that datacrons are optional but you want to do anything you can to help your character grow, and this has more immediate results than farming gear(which is more fun).

-It is a minor pro, I admit that.

[HelinCarnate]

Because there are not enough Troopers and Consulars on Republic side. And we could sure use more Bounty hunters and Inquisitors on Empire side.

 

Why play a class that is limited to heals/damage or tank/damage when you can do tank/heals/damage depending on your mood.

 

Dual AC would make this a 2 class game instead of an 8 class game.

[Reynnas]

You already pointed out why I hope this is never implemented OP. Some jack hole being in the group and then rolling on items for their "other" AC, completely disregarding the ones present who can use it. This happened in wow, and it just ticked me off. If you queued as a tank, then stop taking the dps gear for your "other spec"

 

I also tried pointing out some solutions. In WoW, if someone cross-realm is on ignore, I don't think you're grouped with them, and if you ignore someone on your server, then you never have to group with them.

[Russkiier]

Dual AC is something that should not happen. I am ambivalent about dual spec (within the advanced class), but the advanced classes are, in my experience, different playstyles

Class: Sith Inquisitor

AC: Sorceror

Role: Ranged Healer OR Ranged DPS

AC: Assassin

Role: Melee tank OR Melee DPS

 

Both AC's have different abilities, as a sorceror I probably use 3-4 skills available to the assassin (lightning strike, double slash, force lightning, crushing darkness?) [correct me if any of those skills aren't assassin]

 

as a healer i would have no idea how the mechanics of a tank-asin work, and as such be a detriment to my party

 

The imperial agent is another example

AC: sniper

ranged dps

AC: operative

Stealth dps or Stealth healer

knowing how to play sniper is not indicative of knowing how to play an operative

 

peace

[xyloh]

Personally as nice as it would be not having to level an alt because at level 30 I wish I chose the other advanced class would be nice... but I have to say NO to being able to be both Shadow and Sage, Gunslinger and Scoundrel, etc etc etc...

 

For one... in the other MMO I played... Druids/Palies abused the fact that they could play multiple roles WAYYYYYY to much.

 

"Hey guys I wanna be a tank"

 

Next week: "Hey guys I'll heal if you need me too"

 

Next week: "Healing is boring, I'm going to DPS"

 

Next week: "Hey guys need me to tank again??"

 

Yeah... not interested in loot whores and spec swappers especially since respec is free once a week...

 

The only way I will consider/endorse swapping advanced class... is if it's before end game... and preferably before level 40 as I hope people would actually learn how to use all their skills once swapped.

 

But personally I researched classes/Advanced Classes and I am happy with my main other than I cannot get the color saber of choice since it is not available to republic at all.

 

Think about your play style and live with it.

Edited February 15, 2012 by xyloh

[Zachajariah]

They already said no AC respecs. Can we just move on?

 

If you roll a Jedi shadow, under no circumstances should you be allowed to switch to a sage; go back to WoW.

[Atrix]

Why is this still being discussed? It was shot down.

 

The major problem here is BioWare chose the wrong wording when describing the initial type of character you choose. In all honesty the Trooper, BH, Smuggler, Knight, Consular, Inquisitor, IA, and Warrior should have been called... STORYLINES.

 

Then as you move up through the starting areas and get use to basic abilities and playstyles, you can pick your true CLASS.

 

If you don't like the way the character class system is here, stop playing. It isn't going to change and shouldn't. Blizzard isn't going to let you dual spec Priest and Shaman. The comment was made that the core abilities are the same. I like how it gives you the taste of very basic abilities early on to help you decide which want you want to go. However, you don't really see Sorcerers running around using Thrash or Saber Strike all the time - well unless they aren't aware of what their class is. LOL

 

Just like in WOW every class can sit there and melee a target, not that it is going to do much for casters. Mages have Fireball, Warlocks have Shadow Bolt...essentially the same spell just a different graphic. You could argue those are almost the same core abilities. Should Blizzard allow people to dual spec Mage & Warlock on one character? No. That's just stupid.

 

BioWare did a different spin on the introductory storylines. Instead of basing them off of race like WOW does, they based it off of the background story of the character. My character can have roots as either a Bounty Hunter or Imperial Agent and begins their journey from there. Being Chiss or whatever doesn't really mean anything. Just like starting out in WOW as a Mage or Warlock doesn't really mean much. Death Knight is really the only time you are going to see full story immersion into a class storyline.

 

I really don't see the point behind all this. At the end of the day dual or respecing Advance Classes will never happen. Not all games are created equal and the biggest issue BioWare has right now is all these people trained in the thinking of Blizzard and WOW applying those same definitions here. They don't apply. This is Bioware's world and not Blizzard's. If you like the other system better, by all means and head back.

 

Let's stop wasting time of the Devs and others on issues that are already dead.

[Reynnas]

Because there are not enough Troopers and Consulars on Republic side. And we could sure use more Bounty hunters and Inquisitors on Empire side.

 

Why play a class that is limited to heals/damage or tank/damage when you can do tank/heals/damage depending on your mood.

 

Dual AC would make this a 2 class game instead of an 8 class game.

 

Because you enjoy the playstyle or even look of the limited class or you don't like one of the combat roles at all. I don't understand why people are so intent on wanting people to play classes that they don't like or trying to alter someone's preferred playstyle or role. Also, I don't see why they're so determined with having more classes. If a class is underplayed, everyone who is for balanced class representation can make one if they're that resolute in their stance.

[Reynnas]

They already said no AC respecs. Can we just move on?

 

If you roll a Jedi shadow, under no circumstances should you be allowed to switch to a sage; go back to WoW.

 

This is about pros and cons, not what BW says. Reinforce why you think they shouldn't be allowed to switch with your thoughts. And please keep it civil/non-flaming/etc.

[Russkiier]

Because you enjoy the playstyle or even look of the limited class or you don't like one of the combat roles at all. I don't understand why people are so intent on wanting people to play classes that they don't like or trying to alter someone's preferred playstyle or role. Also, I don't see why they're so determined with having more classes. If a class is underplayed, everyone who is for balanced class representation can make one if they're that resolute in their stance.

 

If you dont like the class you choose, roll an alt! or respec!

 

if you realize around level 25-30 that this class is not for you, it will likely take you only a month or two of casual gaming to get to that level again with a different class (or advanced class). If you stick with mechanics that you hate until 50 that is a YP not a DP. Just because you were too stubborn to realize that you dont like ranged casters until lvl 50 does not mean you should get to spec to a new class. I mean, if heal-spec sorc can spec to tank-spec assassin, arent juggernauts tanks too, so why can't i respec to juggernaut?

 

dont play something you dont like and expect people to pity you

[Reynnas]

Dual AC is something that should not happen. I am ambivalent about dual spec (within the advanced class), but the advanced classes are, in my experience, different playstyles

Class: Sith Inquisitor

AC: Sorceror

Role: Ranged Healer OR Ranged DPS

AC: Assassin

Role: Melee tank OR Melee DPS

 

I'm not trying to be a fanboy for any game here, but both WoW and Rift, the other leading MMOs, have all roles available within each class(Albeit it only some classes, even with some having both ranged and melee dps, and others only having pure DPS).

 

For one... in the other MMO I played... Druids abused the fact that they could play multiple roles WAYYYYYY to much.

 

"Hey guys I wanna be a tank"

 

Next week: "Hey guys I'll heal if you need me too"

 

Next week: "Healing is boring, I'm going to DPS"

 

Next week: "Hey guys need me to tank again??"

 

Yeah... not interested in loot whores and spec swappers especially since respec is free once a week...

 

I agree that that is very obnoxious, but those people will probably end up leveling a ton of alts with different specs and no real gear rather than the same character with no real gear. Nor do you have to play with those peoples, as I also try to avoid playing with those kinds of people.

[Reynnas]

Why is this still being discussed? It was shot down.

 

[Text]

 

Let's stop wasting time of the Devs and others on issues that are already dead.

 

Please read the bottom of the first post.

[Reynnas]

If you dont like the class you choose, roll an alt! or respec!

 

if you realize around level 25-30 that this class is not for you, it will likely take you only a month or two of casual gaming to get to that level again with a different class (or advanced class). If you stick with mechanics that you hate until 50 that is a YP not a DP. Just because you were too stubborn to realize that you dont like ranged casters until lvl 50 does not mean you should get to spec to a new class. I mean, if heal-spec sorc can spec to tank-spec assassin, arent juggernauts tanks too, so why can't i respec to juggernaut?

 

dont play something you dont like and expect people to pity you

 

The juggernaut has a different tanking playstyle than an assassin tank, although minor or major, I'm not sure. They also have different gear priorities and looks. I'm also not asking for pity, I'm merely suggesting/discussing reasons why I think the idea would be beneficial.

[xyloh]

I will commend the OP on responding to each "Naysayer" and being persistent...

 

But I actually enjoy the fact that no class/advanced class can swap between all 3 roles for the reasons I have already posted.

 

After all there are other MMO's that cater to those who wish to invest everything into one character and play all roles...

Edited February 15, 2012 by xyloh

[Emeda]

They already said no AC respecs. Can we just move on?

 

Nope this is going to be brought up all the time until they get what they want. Bioware says no now but sooner or later they are going to give in because they always give in, even though it destroys the game in the process. But like Bioware these people dont care about the game itself but only what they get from it.

[Reynnas]

I will commend the OP on responding to each "Naysayer" and being persistent...

 

But I actually enjoy the fact that no class/advanced class can swap between all 3 roles for the reasons I have already posted.

 

After all there are other MMO's that cater to those who wish to invest everything into one character and play all roles...

 

I play a few other MMOs, but they don't have nearly as much story or character progression(story-wise), nor do they have the feel of epicness that you get from just you and your companion being the heroes. This is probably the most enjoyable out of the other MMOs that I play atm, and I'd like to be able to devote more of my time to this rather than others, but I just feel like I can't because my character is limited by an unneeded barrier(my opinion).

 

P.S. As I said, your other reasons are valid, but there are solutions to dealing with those types of people.

[Reynnas]

Nope this is going to be brought up all the time until they get what they want. Bioware says no now but sooner or later they are going to give in because they always give in, even though it destroys the game in the process. But like Bioware these people dont care about the game itself but only what they get from it.

 

I still don't understand how giving people an option breaks the game for everyone else when that person would otherwise miserably grind through the same content again or just not play that AC at all, limiting their experience and enjoyment of the game.

[CygnisJunior]

On one hand I don't want to go through my class's story line again

 

But on the other hand, advanced classes are really damn different.

[xyloh]

I play a few other MMOs, but they don't have nearly as much story or character progression(story-wise), nor do they have the feel of epicness that you get from just you and your companion being the heroes. This is probably the most enjoyable out of the other MMOs that I play atm, and I'd like to be able to devote more of my time to this rather than others, but I just feel like I can't because my character is limited by an unneeded barrier(my opinion).

 

P.S. As I said, your other reasons are valid, but there are solutions to dealing with those types of people.

 

If you truly enjoy the story line part... roll one of each and forget advanced classes... this actually hurts your argument imo

 

 

And as far as solutions to dealing with loot whores and spec swappers... dealing with those people are not worth opening up roles.

Edited February 15, 2012 by xyloh