kweassa Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 If you used the time spent whining on this forum to learn your classes, this thread would be dead by now... Seriously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 ]They are free kil for mara/sentinel AND few other ACs/specs, they cant kill any healer spec, they are easiest class to shut down, they dont have ANY burst.... and yet baddies cry nerf lol. Aint happening. You're ignoring the other 100 times I(and other posters) have shown why Sorcerers using hybrid CC specs have too much control. It's like you have amnesia and just ignore every post before yours. You've been proven wrong many times in this thread. 1. They aren't a free kill unless they don't use their abilities. Read through past arguments. 2. They can do as well as most others. The most effective healer killers are those with interrupts on 6s talented CDs(Marauders and Powertechs). Other than those two everyone else is about even in terms of being able to solo a healer. Soloing healers isn't efficient regardless. Tunneling a healer alone is stupid when you could kill them a lot faster with two people and move on. 3. They are by far one of the most difficult classes to shut down if they bother to actually use their excessive CC. 4. They have burst equivalent to most others. You're comparing a Sorcerer's burst to Mercenaries, Operatives, and Assassins and two of those are dependent on being able to burst. Mercenary damage is better than Sorcerer damage but they don't have the excessive control(and they're the rDPS with the second best PvP toolkit). 5. The "baddie" part has been proven wrong so many times that the argument actually flipped a few times and people started saying that if I had no problems killing bad Sorcerers then I shouldn't be asking for a nerf to their excessive CC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) If you used the time spent whining on this forum to learn your classes, this thread would be dead by now... That explains the 6 sorcerers and 6 sages in every warzone. Edited February 20, 2012 by savionen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baalazar Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) That explains the 6 sorcerers and 6 sages in every warzone. Thats a complete overstatement with no facts to back it up. If people actually start writing actual facts of why sorcs are op then they might have a decent argument. All i ever see is that sorcs can kill me when all their abilities are up. Well no *********** **** ofc a sorc if going to win if all of their cds are up. Why the **** are you chasing a sorc/sage to begin with? The classes are more balanced in this game than WoW and people still complain. Anyone who has faced a frost mage in wow wouldn't be complaining about sorc/sages. Edited February 20, 2012 by Baalazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustinxDuff Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) People say sorcs are op, and anti-melee yet I face roll them on my sentinel.. This leads me to believe that the majority of posters who hate on sorcs are having l2p issues. (last time someone posted something to this effect they had a picture of their ui on another thread w/out a single keybimd.. C'mon man lol).they are very predictable, wear light armor, have a Bubble that is gone after one hit, and get owned when slowed following the root from force leap. Believe it or not sorcs aren't completely faceroll and have a more complex rotation then tracerLoL (but definately not as strenuous as a sentinel rotation). Either or stop whining and learn how to counter them.. Almost every spec of any class can do so. Sounds like the sorcs you are fighting aren't very good. Edited February 20, 2012 by JustinxDuff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Thats a complete overstatement with no facts to back it up. If people actually start writing actual facts of why sorcs are op then they might have a decent argument. All i ever see is that sorcs can kill me when all their abilities are up. Well no *********** **** ofc a sorc if going to win if all of their cds are up. Why the **** are you chasing a sorc/sage to begin with? Ignore the 96 pages in this thread then. Sorcerer/Sage has the most CC of any class, but is also ranged, and has the most survivability. Light Armor + Bubble is better than Heavy Armor + Reactive Shield. You're arguing that a Sorc will win if they have all their cooldowns up? Or that you shouldn't chase a Sorc? Why should they automatically win? They also have SHORT cooldowns. If they attack you what are you supposed to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) ^96 pages in this thread and another 120ish pages in the last. Thats a complete overstatement with no facts to back it up. If people actually start writing actual facts of why sorcs are op then they might have a decent argument. All i ever see is that sorcs can kill me when all their abilities are up. Well no *********** **** ofc a sorc if going to win if all of their cds are up. Why the **** are you chasing a sorc/sage to begin with? The classes are more balanced in this game than WoW and people still complain. Anyone who has faced a frost mage in wow wouldn't be complaining about sorc/sages. So you're saying they auto-win with their cooldowns up. Their longest CD is 60 seconds. You're saying they get a free kill with minimal effort every 60 seconds. This is in addition to the free turret time they get while someone isn't focusing on killing them. WoW's Frost Mage was squishy when caught and died if there wasn't a healer around. SWTOR's Sorcerer is like a SPriest with self-healing/bubbles that doesn't cause them to go OOM quickly. They also have CC that's pretty much on par with what Frost Mages had but with less CC immunity(no blink). Edited February 20, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tirium Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 I just kill Sorcs/Sages, seems to work well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baalazar Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Ignore the 96 pages in this thread then. Sorcerer/Sage has the most CC of any class, but is also ranged, and has the most survivability. Light Armor + Bubble is better than Heavy Armor + Reactive Shield. You're arguing that a Sorc will win if they have all their cooldowns up? Or that you shouldn't chase a Sorc? Why should they automatically win? They also have SHORT cooldowns. If they attack you what are you supposed to do? Because a ranged class who knows how to kite will all their abilities up is going to win. As a melee you shouldn't be chasing a sorc halfway across the map they are going to dot you up and run away. You have to play smart and catch them off guard. Everybody expects this game to be faceroll. It already is for the most part. How much easier do you want this game to be? Right now as it stands sorcs have low survivability if you can corner them. A marauder/sentinel can make quick work of them. IF Sorc/sages didn't have the sprint and the utility they have every class would wipe the floor with them. 96 pages of people need to learn to play the game is all i see. Edited February 20, 2012 by Baalazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 You're saying a Sorcerer should be able to win every fight, I get it. You must want faceroll if you want to automatically win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) IF Sorc/sages didn't have the sprint and the utility they have every class would wipe the floor with them. Sprint and their baseline utility already make them the most capable kiters in the game. They don't need the extra hybrid spec talented CC. It's too much on one player. Saying "A sorcerer will win unless you catch them off guard" is contradictory to the idea that they're balanced. A balanced class does not automatically win unless caught off guard. Edited February 20, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baalazar Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 You're saying a Sorcerer should be able to win every fight, I get it. You must want faceroll if you want to automatically win. Any class with all their cds up should win if they are a good player. There are some exceptions to this, but this a true statement for most classes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baalazar Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) Sprint and their baseline utility already make them the most capable kiters in the game. They don't need the extra hybrid spec talented CC. It's too much on one player. Saying "A sorcerer will win unless you catch them off guard" is contradictory to the idea that they're balanced. A balanced class does not automatically win unless caught off guard. Maybe the blind could be removed and the bubble could be nerfed a bit. Would that make you happy? Lets also nerf guard while were at it. Edited February 20, 2012 by Baalazar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattotwo Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Too much cc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guioki Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The thing is everyone thinks the bubble protects 4k+, it doesn't. The bubble is 3-3.5k on a well geared player. The aoe mez is half as long as every other classes aoe mez, and is meelee range only. The only thing it does is give sorcs time to react to being jumped by meelee. Now the OP keeps telling people to read the last 90ish pages to see all the "proof" posted and yet anyone who does actually read all 90 pages can see how many times hes been proven wrong. Someone makes a valid argument and he tells them to stop trolling. He posts a pic of him doing top damage as a mara in a huttball (sorcs favorite wz) with several sorcs in it, and as soon as it is pointed out he removes it. Any post made with valid points in it he spams to the next page so people don't read it. This has to be the most elaborate troll post in the history of trolling or the most idiotic OP ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) The thing is everyone thinks the bubble protects 4k+, it doesn't. The bubble is 3-3.5k on a well geared player. The aoe mez is half as long as every other classes aoe mez, and is meelee range only. The only thing it does is give sorcs time to react to being jumped by meelee. My bubble math in the OP uses a 3.5k bubble. That's typical of any Sorc with decent gear(and by decent I don't mean champion gear with the default mods. I mean remodded good gear). The AoE mezz is half the duration of a Marauder AoE mezz but with a 4.5s or 20s cooldown as opposed to a 1.5 minute cooldown. You're looking at the duration(AoE mezz rarely lasts the full duration anyways) and totally ignoring the fact that it's essentially spammable over a semi-lengthy battle. Sorcerers have a lot of CC. That's the problem. You can't compare a single stun and say "X class has the same thing" because "X class" doesn't have all of the other CC that Sorcerers have. Sorcerers simply have too much all at once. --- If your best argument is "Well you [as a former WoW glad ranked player by the way] did really well in some huttball matches against some keyboard turning Sorcerers that didn't even know they had an ability called Force Slow and didn't understand that Whirlwind worked on players so you must be totally wrong about everything!" then I'm afraid you're beyond the reach of reasoning. Edited February 20, 2012 by Tumri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Ricky Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 ^ can any1 tell me why this guy thinks if he says the same crap enuf times it will be true? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 ^ can any1 tell me why this guy thinks if he says the same crap enuf times it will be true? Because he's correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baalazar Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Because he's correct. 97 pages of rants don't make you correct. They just make you look like a fool. Majority whining doesn't mean you are right. It just means alot of people are wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumri Posted February 20, 2012 Author Share Posted February 20, 2012 97 pages of rants don't make you correct. Except for the fact that I used math, comparative analysis, and practical scenarios to prove my point over the course of over 200 pages of discussion. I also trimmed down my original list of complaints as I was proven wrong. What's left is stuff that hasn't been proven to be balanced in the slightest. If debate=rant to you then I don't know how you could ever function in a real world setting where people argue, debate, and quarrel all the time using facts and analysis to fight for what they believe is correct. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baalazar Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 Except for the fact that I used math, comparative analysis, and practical scenarios to prove my point over the course of over 200 pages of discussion. I also trimmed down my original list of complaints as I was proven wrong. What's left is stuff that hasn't been proven to be balanced in the slightest. If debate=rant to you then I don't know how you could ever function in a real world setting where people argue, debate, and quarrel all the time using facts and analysis to fight for what they believe is correct. The facts are the sorcs excel in utility and healing. They don't have very strong burst damaage and if focused aren't really that hard to kill. You ignore the fact there are other classes that excel in other areas just as much as sorcs excel in the areas i just stated. That doesn't make a class op it just means they were suited to that particular task. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quesadilla Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 The thing is everyone thinks the bubble protects 4k+, it doesn't. The bubble is 3-3.5k on a well geared player. The aoe mez is half as long as every other classes aoe mez, and is meelee range only. The only thing it does is give sorcs time to react to being jumped by meelee. One bubble is not OP. But most sorcs are staying around to cast 2 or 3 bubbles. With a 20 second cooldown if they had already had one on them with a couple seconds left before someone breaks it, then they cast it on themselves again a couple seconds into the fight, 20 seconds later they will have had 3 bubbles before the fight is over. At 3.5k a pop that is well over half of even the best geared sorcs' HP. The only CC that I have a problem with from sorcs/sages is the grace period they were given on whirlwind/force lift. That talent seems crazy OP to me, and should at the very least also heal a player rapidly like it would an NPC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guioki Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 One bubble is not OP. But most sorcs are staying around to cast 2 or 3 bubbles. With a 20 second cooldown if they had already had one on them with a couple seconds left before someone breaks it, then they cast it on themselves again a couple seconds into the fight, 20 seconds later they will have had 3 bubbles before the fight is over. At 3.5k a pop that is well over half of even the best geared sorcs' HP. The only CC that I have a problem with from sorcs/sages is the grace period they were given on whirlwind/force lift. That talent seems crazy OP to me, and should at the very least also heal a player rapidly like it would an NPC. Finally someone who actually comes up with some valid discussion points. As for the bubble, the math that the OP and many others in this thread have used shows that one bubble will take a sorc in line with other classes toughness. Which surely isnt OP. The second bubble will take the sorc in line with other classes defensive abilities such as the sniper 20% damage reduction, shield, and evasion. Powertechs -20% accuracy aoe, shield, and 4% aoe reduce enemy damage abilities. Other classes have just as much, such as the maras 99% damage reduction and the assassins resistance vs tech/force cooldown. This doesnt seem OP to me at all, sorcs are still more squishy at the end of the day because of all of that. Now Whirldwind/froce lift are the same duration as most other classes mez, except the graphic is different and most other classes mez's are AOE. There is a 2 sec stun attached to it when talented to, which if done wrong can give a 0 resolve player full resolve for only 2-3 seconds of CC. Whirlwind plus any one other cc (knockback/electrocute/shield bubble popping) will give a full resolve bar and no damage can be applied during this time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
savionen Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 (edited) The facts are the sorcs excel in utility and healing. They don't have very strong burst damaage and if focused aren't really that hard to kill. You ignore the fact there are other classes that excel in other areas just as much as sorcs excel in the areas i just stated. That doesn't make a class op it just means they were suited to that particular task. They also excel in CC and mobility. The problem is they excel at way more things than any other classes. And no, they do NOT have poor survivability with bubble. Over a short fight they can end up casting 1-2 bubbles ontop of a pre-casted bubble, that's 7-10.5k damage that is blocked. Please tell me another class that can negate that much damage, aside from Marauder's Undying rage, if you decide not to CC them. The hybrid spec for Sorcerers have mobility, survivability, moderate damage, the most CC of any class, and then moderate utility/healing. They're the best CC class, mixed with being 90% as good at just about everything else. If you want to be a tank as a juggernaut, you have to sacrifice a lot of damage, etc. With the Hybrid spec Sorcerers really don't sacrifice much in PvP. It's not uncommon for a Sorcerer to get 400k+ damage and then 200k+ healing and 100+ protection in one match. Are Sorcerer healers OP? No. A pure DPS build? No. The hybrid spec is what needs to be nerfed. Edited February 20, 2012 by savionen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth_Ricky Posted February 20, 2012 Share Posted February 20, 2012 this guy trys to say what devs 'intent' but cant back it up A Madness Sorcerer is supposed to have some CC and a lot of Mobility due to a reliance on instant casts and DoT effects. A Lightning Sorcerer is supposed to have a lot of defensive CC and very limited Mobility due to reliance on hard casts. ^ he cant back up 'suppose to' What I'm trying to emphasize is how stupidly well the bottom halves of the two trees synergize. It's obviously not intended and needs to be changed without breaking the full 31 point specs. ^ he cant back up 'not intended' but i know what devs want... for us to do hybrid as much as we like. cos they gave us 41 pts and it only take 5 pts to go to next lvl in a tree. u cant even use all the pts u got, in 1 tree. so devs back me but tihs spammer keeps claimin on what devs want and how class is suppose to be, but cant back it up. so yea. like i was sayin. he keeps puttin out crap and thinkin if he say it enuf its true lol. sorc trees: heal/aoe dmg/one target dmg... any hybrid who dont go to top of tree cant do as good for w/e the tree is for, as the ppl who go to the top of tree. they do some of 1 and some of other. UM I DUNNO WHY MAYBE COS ITS A HYBRID?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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