The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[Guioki]

Sorcs/Assassins have 10% base defence rather then 5% wich I belive is the amount all other classes have. So if you did not already take this into account, you should add 5% to Sorcs mitigation in the part of your post where you compare their mitigation with the medium and heavy armour classes.

 

/Solon

 

That is base defense which when talking about pvp mitigation is a joke, and all LS classes have 10% base, so maras and juggs too. This stat doesnt mitigate any tech/force abilities and if we want to start including white damage sorcs damage mitigation gets waaaaaaaay worse in comparison to other classes (sniper evasion etc).

[Keldaur]

That is base defense which when talking about pvp mitigation is a joke, and all LS classes have 10% base, so maras and juggs too. This stat doesnt mitigate any tech/force abilities and if we want to start including white damage sorcs damage mitigation gets waaaaaaaay worse in comparison to other classes (sniper evasion etc).

 

Maras/sentinels and guardians/juggs have a 5%, not a 10%.

 

You may think it's a joke, it's bad or whatever (you clearly don't play a class which most attacks are weapon damage based instead of force/tech), but it's something to take into account too when running numbers.

[Aidank]

It's what sorcs primarily stack, unlike a lot of other classes.

 

In other words, it should be easier for tank classes to come in, interrupt sorcs and kill them before we do sufficient dps to kill you. I didn't say it nerfed only sorcs, but it did nerf a sorc's ability to do damage as a glass cannon class.

 

Don't act like you don't know this.

 

I've already posted everyone's crit multipliers and stuff from talents in this game, sorcerers are effected by the surge nerf a lot less than everyone else.

[Tumri]

That means YOU CC YOURSELF in that moment, because you just nuked the sage/sorc and his/her shield was destroyed BY YOU.

 

Click shield off manually and you have a 3s AoE mezz on a 20 second cooldown. In addition to this if you shield someone else and THEY click off the shield the 3s AoE mezz activates. If you had a pre-made of 4 you could quite literally keep an entire team CC'd for 12-15 seconds. Read the OP and you'll know this stuff. This is about the 20th time I've had to point out to a Sorcerer how his own talents/abilities work. Read the OP.

[Aidank]

First of all, the root has to be skilled for 2 points. It is not a cc, it is a root. It breaks on damage, holds max 5sec if not disturbed.

Second, I guess you mean the shield explosion, which has to be skilled for 2 points, way up in telekinetics, at a very, very bad spot to spec, holds for 3sec and breaks on damage. Also for it to explode the sage/sorc shield has to be destroyed. That means YOU CC YOURSELF in that moment, because you just nuked the sage/sorc and his/her shield was destroyed BY YOU.

 

Even if no one does damage to you, not even the AOE SPAMMING sages/sorcs the maximal duration of CC is 3sec+5sec root.

 

Also if you play vs sages/sorcs: HUDDLING AROUND ONE POINT IS S T U P I D. They have AoE, they have kickbacks. YOU SHOULD KNOW THAT. It is like complaining about meele doing damage on you because he is in meele range. You get out of meele range. For sage/sorc you get out of packs.

 

Three things, one, You can click your bubble off whenever you want and cc people that way, even though it's only 3 seconds If you run into a huddle and can CC a couple people it's more beneficial than your shield was.

 

Two, you can't blame people for breaking a sorcerer's bubble, that's a tad absurd. How else are they going to kill us? Do you expect people to just ignore us if they don't want to get autocc'd?

 

Three, clumping up is pretty much unavoidable. How do you expect melee classes to kill ball carriers, how do you expect people to defend stuff in aldaraan & voidstar. In objective games expecting people to spread out is pretty ridiculous.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Aidank

[Guioki]

Maras/sentinels and guardians/juggs have a 5%, not a 10%.

 

You may think it's a joke, it's bad or whatever (you clearly don't play a class which most attacks are weapon damage based instead of force/tech), but it's something to take into account too when running numbers.

 

Actually I do also play a sniper, powertech and just started a sentinel, and sorcs go down faster then any other class because they have less hp lower armor and their only shield stops about 3.5k max.

 

For example, snipers get a AOE 20% damage reduction for any team members in it for 15 seconds? As well as a shield, as well as evasion, as well as a grenade that reduces the enemys accuracy by 45% for 6 seconds and blocks them going into cover aswell as more armor. All that vs a 3.5k max shield.

[Guioki]

Three things, one, You can click your bubble off whenever you want and cc people that way, even though it's only 3 seconds If you run into a huddle and can CC a couple people it's more beneficial than your shield was.

 

Two, you can't blame people for breaking a sorcerer's bubble, that's a tad absurd. How else are they going to kill us? Do you expect people to just ignore us if they don't want to get autocc'd?

 

Three, clumping up is pretty much unavoidable. How do you expect melee classes to kill ball carriers, how do you expect people to defend stuff in aldaraan & voidstar. In objective games expecting people to spread out is pretty ridiculous.

 

Your talking about an ability that isn't part of the "OP HYBRID" build that everyone is using, the 0/13/28 build. The base shield doesn't have an aoe stun when broken, its a tier 4 ability in the derp tree which costs 2 points, so unless you want to give up far better abilities from the madness tree nobody will have it.

 

And people not spreading out is more ridiculous, have you seen the damage death from above does? Say hello to your entire team losing half their health from being clumped together.

[Aidank]

Your talking about an ability that isn't part of the "OP HYBRID" build that everyone is using, the 0/13/28 build. The base shield doesn't have an aoe stun when broken, its a tier 4 ability in the derp tree which costs 2 points, so unless you want to give up far better abilities from the madness tree nobody will have it.

 

And people not spreading out is more ridiculous, have you seen the damage death from above does? Say hello to your entire team losing half their health from being clumped together.

 

This thread is clearly about the 20/21 build, that I personally use on my sorc.

 

Unless you're just mindlessly going for top damage, 20/21 is way better than 13/28. You don't get far better abilities from madness, just some more dot damage in exchange for less burst and control. Backlash is probably the best talent in the entire game, and if you're giving that up to use a pve dps build in pvp... you're making a terrible decision

 

Second, I realize AoE in this game is ridiculously strong, that doesn't change the fact that it's completely impossible for melee classes in particular to avoid clumping up.

 

 

 

 

And sorcs don't have less HP by default, we've got the same amount of HP as any other class if we're using the same mods. If you choose to go all willpower mods over stamina mods then of course you're going to have less health, just like you would on any other class.

 

Not to mention, we've already gone over the calculations in here, it takes more effective damage to kill a sorcerer than pretty much any other class unless you do some 90% of your damage with kinetic/energy/weapon/ranged.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Aidank

[Keldaur]

Actually I do also play a sniper, powertech and just started a sentinel, and sorcs go down faster then any other class because they have less hp lower armor and their only shield stops about 3.5k max.

 

For example, snipers get a AOE 20% damage reduction for any team members in it for 15 seconds? As well as a shield, as well as evasion, as well as a grenade that reduces the enemys accuracy by 45% for 6 seconds and blocks them going into cover aswell as more armor. All that vs a 3.5k max shield.

 

Are you talking at 50 ?

 

At 50 with my gunslinger bm/champion their bubble makes them take more gcd's to kill than a merc/pyrotech (heavy armor), because even if they take more damage from my skills they have easiers way to LoS me or their bubble make up for it (it's around 4k when geared, not 3,5k, and that on a single fight means 20k health instead the usual 16k). The AOE 20% is 3mins cd and requires you to stay on cover, not a bubble free, and the smoke grenade is 1min cd against 1 enemy. You can't be serious comparing that utility to just 1 skill of the sorc, which also when specced right aoe blind.

 

The problem isn't the skill, it's all the CC the class can acquire easilly via hybrid. Stop de-railing the thread.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Keldaur

[Guioki]

How does the 20/21 even compare to the 13/28, 30% surge from the 28 points on death field and dots is greater then anything you gain from going 20 points into lightning.

 

The 3 second aoe mez from the bubble giving people resolve uncontrollably is laughable.

 

And I stand by my point that a sorc is easier to kill then any other class in the open, you can use all the numbers you want, and ignore all the other classes defensive abilities when coming up with these numbers, but until a combat log comes out so people can actually test then GG.

[Guioki]

Are you talking at 50 ?

 

At 50 with my gunslinger bm/champion their bubble makes them take more gcd's to kill than a merc/pyrotech (heavy armor), because even if they take more damage from my skills they have easiers way to LoS me or their bubble make up for it (it's around 4k when geared, not 3,5k, and that on a single fight means 20k health instead the usual 16k). The AOE 20% is 3mins cd and requires you to stay on cover, not a bubble free, and the smoke grenade is 1min cd against 1 enemy. You can't be serious comparing that utility to just 1 skill of the sorc, which also when specced right aoe blind.

 

The problem isn't the skill, it's all the CC the class can acquire easilly via hybrid. Stop de-railing the thread.

 

Only one of these CC abilities allows you to do damage while using it. The entire hybrid build is designed to just survive and run away. Basically all those skills added up and steath has more effect.

 

And if you can kill a merc easier then a sorc there is something wrong with the mercs you've been killing. Who cares how long a cooldown is? You only need to use it once per fight and chances are by the time you actually need to use it again it will be back up. It's not like you get focus fired every 20 seconds in a WZ.

[Aidank]

How does the 20/21 even compare to the 13/28, 30% surge from the 28 points on death field and dots is greater then anything you gain from going 20 points into lightning.

 

The 3 second aoe mez from the bubble giving people resolve uncontrollably is laughable.

 

And I stand by my point that a sorc is easier to kill then any other class in the open, you can use all the numbers you want, and ignore all the other classes defensive abilities when coming up with these numbers, but until a combat log comes out so people can actually test then GG.

 

For one, resolve is a joke, people die way too fast for it to really matter.

 

and with a 20/21 build you gain an extra 10 seconds off force speed, a 3 second mezz on a 20 seconds cooldown on yourself, or less if you're using it on everyone around you, and you can get either barrage or bindings, giving you either a whole lot more burst or a whole lot more control that doesn't effect resolve.

 

All you lose from this is 30% crit multiplier on dots & field, 15% damage on affliction, and 2 seconds on crushing darkness.

 

With 20/21 you're so much more helpful to your team it's ridiculous. It makes scoring in huttball incredibly easy, it makes kiting brainless, and you've got even more burst than you do in 13/28 assuming you took bindings.

 

13/28 is a pve build, and for warzone heroes that just go for top dps.

 

 

 

Secondly, if you choose to stick your head in the sand despite all the numbers we've posted how do you expect anyone to take you seriously? If we don't need to worry about this game's mechanics and we can argue based on fictitious numbers then sorcerers crit for 20,000 damage and need nerfed asap.

 

And the calculations do take other defensive cooldowns into account. It takes more damage to kill a double bubbled sorcerer than it does to kill a dps powertech using his bubble.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Aidank

[Tumri]

Actually I do also play a sniper, powertech and just started a sentinel, and sorcs go down faster then any other class because they have less hp lower armor and their only shield stops about 3.5k max.

 

For example, snipers get a AOE 20% damage reduction for any team members in it for 15 seconds? As well as a shield, as well as evasion, as well as a grenade that reduces the enemys accuracy by 45% for 6 seconds and blocks them going into cover aswell as more armor. All that vs a 3.5k max shield.

 

As others have mentioned already those abilities have extensive cooldowns. A Sniper/Gunslinger or another class with good defensive cooldowns will have them up 1/5 fights at best. Assuming a Sorcerer magically lost all of his CC and escape abilities the bubble puts him on par with higher armor classes and with the advantage of not being demolished by high internal/elemental damage. Another advantage of bubble is that the lower the total damage taken in 20s is the more effective it is in comparison to better armor.

 

If you actually compare a heavy armor wearer to a sorcerer with both of them attempting to keep the enemy at bay when possible the Sorcerer will pull ahead simply because a much larger percentage of all of the damage that their target inflicts will be mitigated by bubble. The math I used was for a worst-case scenario where the Sorcerer gets beat on for an extended period of time and doesn't get a second bubble off. If I were to account for the the Sorcerer kiting the enemy the heavy armor wearer would pale in comparison.

[Keldaur]

 

and with a 20/21 build you gain an extra 10 seconds off force speed, a 3 second mezz on a 20 seconds cooldown on yourself, or less if you're using it on everyone around you, and you can get either barrage or bindings, giving you either a whole lot more burst or a whole lot more control that doesn't effect resolve.

.

 

You forgot to add the 5/2s root to the knockback.

[Aidank]

You forgot to add the 5/2s root to the knockback.

 

that's bindings. Some 13/28 builds take it, some take barrage instead.

[Keldaur]

that's bindings. Some 13/28 builds take it, some take barrage instead.

 

How can people pass on any of both ? Yeh i know, to go full dps, and that would be surely with barrage, but well, can't assume 100% ;p

[Tumri]

Here's the build Aidank is most likely referring to:

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRrZcrcRsMk.1

 

This is another variation that pretty much the same thing but without reliance on Deathmark DoTs and has a bit more RNG burst with Forked Lightning.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201ZfcbMdRbhZcMcRsMz.1

 

Here's another slight variation for those that want to Tab-DoT more.

 

http://www.torhead.com/skill-calc#201Zfc0MdRbZcrcRsMkM.1

 

You can pretty much modify the build however you want as long as you take the core talents and you'll do exceptionally well. The 0/20/21 is the one I found to be most popular though.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Tumri

[Vyrr_Has]

Before there are any changes made to sage/sorcerer talents, trees or abilities, I'd like to see Bioware address the oversight/bug which allows DoTs to continue to tick after the sage/sorcerer is defeated (they really should be removed immediately upon death, for balance purposes). I suspect the average damage total for sages and sorcerers would decline significantly without that working in their favor.

 

I also think disallowing Force Shield from contributing to healing medals would be a step in the right direction as well. Credit toward protection medals would be appropriate, but as it stands now, it gives the impression that sages/sorcerers are out-healing everything under the sun.

 

Making any adjustments before addressing those issues would be a mistake, as they do skew the accuracy of any comparisons or balance passes.

[Karizza]

And here i thought the BH/Trooper was the op class. Sorcs/Sage dies continually to those classes. I know the class is versatile Sorc/Sage but dps over powered doesnt seem to be a description I would use. At lower levels the class shines and at higher levels other classes take over the superior dps roles. Armor and defense is a joke on the class.

 

You are going to win some fights and lose some fights. Nerfing a class down like they did the op/scoundrel doesnt solve a thing but make other classes the discussion to neuter next round. Instead of fixing what is broken and exploited the devs have to waste time trying to apease the crys. Think about what levels you are fighting. Are you 50 ? Are you fighting high geared 50's with no expertise gear? These points matter completely on how well you stack up.

 

As far as CC goes there is way too much in the game. Every class has some form and sometimes 3-4. There is never any imunity time on the breaker so chain CC happens all the time. Maybe this post should be about scaling back every classes CC and moving all CC to the top of healing trees. I always felt all through beta that PvP was very Warhammerish in its set up. This is because all the CC that is rampant like that game. Anyways whatever the opinions one thing is certain. Both sides are mirrored and anything deemed op is balanced to both sides.

[Keldaur]

Before there are any changes made to sage/sorcerer talents, trees or abilities, I'd like to see Bioware address the oversight/bug which allows DoTs to continue to tick after the sage/sorcerer is defeated (they really should be removed immediately upon death, for balance purposes). I suspect the average damage total for sages and sorcerers would decline significantly without that working in their favor.

 

I also think disallowing Force Shield from contributing to healing medals would be a step in the right direction as well. Credit toward protection medals would be appropriate, but as it stands now, it gives the impression that sages/sorcerers are out-healing everything under the sun.

 

Making any adjustments before addressing those issues would be a mistake, as they do skew the accuracy of any comparisons or balance passes.

 

Noone is talking about damage charts or medals. But yeah, they got the best heal in-game, the barrier.

[Tumri]

I also think disallowing Force Shield from contributing to healing medals would be a step in the right direction as well. Credit toward protection medals would be appropriate, but as it stands now, it gives the impression that sages/sorcerers are out-healing everything under the sun.

 

Dumb idea because that would be an enormous buff to their medal gains. No class in the game can get DPS+Healing+Protection medals. A lot of them can only get DPS medals. If you made bubbles count as protection they could just get the healing medals through hardcast healing and then spam bubble a few times for protection medals. I know it's irrelevant to the discussion at hand but I just thought I'd mention how dumb this change would be. Sorcerers would be getting 15 medals a game.

[Guioki]

Why anyone would want a point in Lightning storm without having forked lightning is beyond me. You lose dps spamming Lightning strike compared to force lightning to get a proc that has a 10 second internal cooldown compared to wrath which adds 20% damage.

[WhiteKnightOmega]

I hate complaining about any class but this class is getting rediculous. they have all the utility in the world to win hutball. speed. grips. shields. heals. I'm coming across this way too much. All they have to do is knockback speed burst grip win. Nothing I can do as a marauder.

 

http://i44.tinypic.com/2ur6u1e.jpg

 

http://i42.tinypic.com/30wo26o.jpg

 

http://i42.tinypic.com/b7geud.jpg

 

These are 3 games in the last 2 days where I've seen this. There was no chance for us to win this.

[YMIHere]

Understand this and understand it well! Animation times are still off between a Sage a Sorc. Telekinetic Momentum is broken on the Sage side and there is a long thread to it and no one cares on the Bioware side to respond to it. http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=124285 show me that Bioware will address this then we will talk.

 

Sorc Nerf! Sages are broken and if Bioware can't address it then it's game over for me next month.

 

While I don't think the animation delay should be different for classes I do want you to know that these annoy me to no end when they are a killing blow. I will literally lose control of my character completely and he'll stand still for the half second or so it takes to damage me, then I'll fall over and die. The delay needs to be fixed, I'm just telling you in case it makes you feel a little better knowing that you can cause a bit of nerd rage. =) Took me a minute to figure out why I was dieing like that.

[YMIHere]

I originally rolled a sorc because that was what I planned on playing from day 1. After playing at 50 and fighting against numerous sage/sorcs I've come to the conclusion that the class is very 1 dimensional and can be played with your eyes closed. I can basically go up to anyone on the map and 1v2 them solo.

 

Explain. I can't even 1v1 most classes if you can 1v2 them then we can definitely talk nerf, just explain how. If you're a great player I can see you succeeding in a 1v2 against bad players, but great player on great player explain.