The reason Sorcerer/Sage CC is OP in PvP

[Lormif]

For a sorc you have to do about 30k damage. How many classes can say that about themselves?

 

and where exactly do you get that number? Out of your butt? 16k +3.5 (assuming this no one can comfirm it being that high) is 19.5.. If you are lucky you got a cast before battle and somehow lasted long enough too then you have 16+7 which is still 23.. So where exactly is the other 11.5k-7k coming from?

[Lormif]

The class is able to score 17 medals no problems, something is seriously wrong, I tried to carbonize \ dart \ grapple scoring sorc, he removes cc, then he bubbles and charges throught flames, If I am lucky and don't get stunned, I try to grapple him back 90% of the time grapple doesnt work on sprinting sorceers. What sorcery is that?

 

I am getting tired of this...

 

Please tell me this is some bad trolling attempt....

[_Flin_]

Flin is having a different discussion than the rest of us... well, most of us are way off topic. =) He was comparing the healing of Sorcerers with Commandos.

 

I can only judge the overpoweredness from my personal point of view. Which is the one of a Commando Healer. Since I do not know the fine points of the hybrid spec, I cannot add to that. Apart from "I have a hard time to hybrid, since my best stuff is top-tier".

 

Concerning overpoweredness of cc I cannot add anything. Only thing commandos have is QQ.

[da_krall]

I can only judge the overpoweredness from my personal point of view. Which is the one of a Commando Healer. Since I do not know the fine points of the hybrid spec, I cannot add to that. Apart from "I have a hard time to hybrid, since my best stuff is top-tier".

 

Concerning overpoweredness of cc I cannot add anything. Only thing commandos have is QQ.

 

LoL, your a commando healer - what you need to do to judge OPness is look in a mirror.

[BoDiE]

Still necro'ing this tired, irrelevant thread guys?

[YMIHere]

I can only judge the overpoweredness from my personal point of view. Which is the one of a Commando Healer. Since I do not know the fine points of the hybrid spec, I cannot add to that. Apart from "I have a hard time to hybrid, since my best stuff is top-tier".

 

Concerning overpoweredness of cc I cannot add anything. Only thing commandos have is QQ.

 

It's just that the OP has tailored this thread to a spec that can get most of the Sorcerer CC, and has even had it's title changed to suit it better. However, we have even had lore arguments in this thread so don't think you're the first. =P I just figured I'd point out to him why you're mentioning abilities outside of the spec that this thread was intended for.

[Tumri]

Still necro'ing this tired, irrelevant thread guys?

 

Are you going to ever post anything relevant or just continue chiming in like this?

[blodtann]

How many people play as 60+ valor ranked sage or sorc in this thread?

 

How many people actually understand the mechanics of these classes?

 

Reading most of this thread I have to conclude most of the sorc are op crowd are just looking for excuses as to why they cannot beat the sage or sorc, with the exception of the op, who at least formulates a decent argument.

 

Strongest ability vs a sorc is interrupt. All of our abilities can be countered. There is one big huge learn to play issue here. But some of you just cannot see that you need to learn your classes and their strengths and limitations. You remind me of the types at work that sit complaining about what others get paid.

 

Look at your class, read it's abilities, use your environment, use your stun AT THE RIGHT TIME, interrupt tele throw, root force speed, interrupt long casting heals, focus the wizard down.

 

That's what good players do. Bad players point at a class and cry Nerf it "because I don't bind my keys, I don't use my abilities smartly, I let sorc and sage cast and move, Iam defeated before the fight has begun, they have better gear than me its not fair, Why don't I get a self-heal like them? Sorc have abundant cc, they have a bubble like a paladin, they can heal and dps at the same time. They are immortal, unkillable (I have no gear and 23 valor rank at 50).

They do 5k burst crits whilst healing, solving a rubix cube, and inventing a cure for cancer.

Etc.

 

Or maybe you just need to accept you aren't that good, and some good players will excel with sorc and kick the crap out of you because you are not very good?

 

Because the thing is there are players that play other classes, do really well against sorc and sage and they are not complaining. So explain that?

 

This is a fair argument if that was also the case the other way around; how much timing and skills does it take for you to kill someone?

 

/blodtann

[blodtann]

My biggest gripe about sorcs is that pretty much everyone plays them now. It's common to see 4+ sorcs in every wz. Yesterday in wz was idiotic; 6 sorcs on the opposing teams. Worst loss we had was sorcs with these numbers;

-500k dmg, 100k heals

-400k dmg, 75k heals

-330k dmg, 30k heals

 

We had 1 kill combined. I did 330k dmg with 0 kills. Did we suck? Not really. It's just impossible to kill sorc heavy teams. All of them have bubbles all the time. They all heal each other. Focusing on 1 target cannot take them down because they heal each other.

 

Why should I play my class which cannot heal, does less damage than a sorc and is way more squishy? This is the real question. There is really no compelling argument to NOT play a sorc; you get it all with no penalties.

 

This is the issue which needs to be addressed.

 

/blodtann

Edited February 16, 2012 by blodtann

[Dregas]

Ok so after being part of the original thread, and reading this entire new thread I see one reoccurring/dominant argument made in favor of Socs being working as intended.

 

"Well, once you interrupt them they can't do anything and become uber vunerable."

 

So two questions:

 

1. If i am a melee character with an interrupt that only works when I am in melee range, how am i supposed to interrupt you when i am chain CC'D/slowed at range? (btw I've already hit my CC break skill)

 

2. Once I get to you and interrupt force lighting, do you seriously have nothing else you can do to create distance, defend yourself, or dmg me with?

[Baalazar]

Ok so after being part of the original thread, and reading this entire new thread I see one reoccurring/dominant argument made in favor of Socs being working as intended.

 

"Well, once you interrupt them they can't do anything and become uber vunerable."

 

So two questions:

 

1. If i am a melee character with an interrupt that only works when I am in melee range, how am i supposed to interrupt you when i am chain CC'D/slowed at range? (btw I've already hit my CC break skill)

 

2. Once I get to you and interrupt force lighting, do you seriously have nothing else you can do to create distance, defend yourself, or dmg me with?

 

Being chain cced isn't just one class that means multiple people are attacking you. That has nothing to do with individual class balance.

 

In a nutshell you shouldn't be charging 3-4 guys by yourself anyway.

[adrenalinee]

Just like the Shadow gameplay nerf, I feel nerfs should affect damage output strictly. The game was intentionally designed with innovation in mind (at least, I hope this is the case when BW created the possibility of having hybrid specs). WoW eliminated this completely because balancing it was a nightmare. You are now forced to put in X amount of points in order to open the next tree.

 

Following BWs logic of allowing Hybrid builds/gameplay/styleplay, I felt that a few nerfs were unjustified, and will continue opposing these suggested types of changes (removing CCs, removing utility, removing buttons essentially).

 

I play both a shadow and a sage. I also play a couple of other alts regular (sentinel and commando).

 

The #1 thing I want in this game in terms of class balance is NOT removing hybrid and class utilities. For example, I would have much rather had BW nerf Shadow DAMAGE while in combat stance. So rather than -5%, I would have preferred them trying 10%, or 15%. Instead, they nerfed the damage by making the class incredibly clunky to play in tank stance (for those that care, Project now costs double in combat stance while infiltration spec'ed). The real issue for Shadows/Assassins is that you need to trade MITIGATION for DAMAGE. This is a constantly evolving thing in an MMO. It also is highly dependant on gear, understanding how your stats work together, and understanding when/how to use what's available to you. Instead, it was taken away completely (pretty much) and replaced with "unfun".

 

I would rather nerf the damage on telekinetic wave and force in balance than take away the CCs/AOE Roots/Stuns.

 

Following this line of logic, I also feel Sorcerers/Sages do too MUCH damage when in large groups. With 1 person doing damage, Sage damage is manageable compared to other classes. Both Shadow and Guardian are capable of putting out more burst (different types of damage for different classes, it's acceptable). However, when there's 3 sages, what ends up happening is the GROUP BURST phenomenon. 1 Sage could do 4-7k damage amongst 3-5 people. 3 sages would be doing 15 (probably within 2-3 GCDs of each other) to 3-5 people at once. This is my concern in a warzone considering how small some of them are designed (Voidstar comes to mind).

 

This is my opinion on this matter, and I more than welcome criticism. But I am against anything that CHANGES a class by removing the utilities which make it fun/important in PvP. In short, I would prefer the nerf come in the form of AOE damage (FIB and TKW) moreso than its CC/utility, which is an important role Sages/Sorc play for their teammates.

[savionen]

Being chain cced isn't just one class that means multiple people are attacking you. That has nothing to do with individual class balance.

 

In a nutshell you shouldn't be charging 3-4 guys by yourself anyway.

 

Between a stun, mez, and blind on knockback/bubbleburst you can keep somebody stunned, mezzed, rooted or blinded for literally 30+ seconds out of a minute with 1 sorcerer... and snare them for the other 30 seconds.

Edited February 16, 2012 by savionen

[Baalazar]

Between a stun, mez, and blind on knockback/bubbleburst you can keep somebody stunned, mezzed, rooted or blinded for literally 30+ seconds out of a minute with 1 sorcerer... and snare them for the other 30 seconds.

 

After you mez resolve bar is full. If the player isn't stupid then they will just kill you after you mez them and not waste their free cc break to get out of it.

 

Almost everyone who complains about another class being is OP is the same guy who doesn't know how to play his class or counter other ones. I've yet to see a valid argument against classes being truly "OP".

 

OP= Paladins one shotting people with judgements.

 

OP does not = somone being able to kite another class and kill them.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Baalazar

[Sirolos]

Ok so after being part of the original thread, and reading this entire new thread I see one reoccurring/dominant argument made in favor of Socs being working as intended.

 

"Well, once you interrupt them they can't do anything and become uber vunerable."

 

So two questions:

 

1. If i am a melee character with an interrupt that only works when I am in melee range, how am i supposed to interrupt you when i am chain CC'D/slowed at range? (btw I've already hit my CC break skill)

 

Depends on the type of melee you are.

Assassin's dont have any problems sticking to a target, because we have the same utility as our sister AC.

I have seen and played against maruaders that rip Sorcs/sages to shreads and I have seen and played against Operatives that Lolspank Sorcs/sages. I think it depends on the situation and time.

For example your probably not going to win against any class without your CC break when they have theirs + CC available.

And your definitely not going to win when you start a fight with a ranged character as a melee...at ranged. With no LoS around.

2. Once I get to you and interrupt force lighting, do you seriously have nothing else you can do to create distance, defend yourself, or dmg me with?

 

As a 31 balance sage you wouldnt stay at melee range longer than 3 seconds if you dont have a way to lock me down.

operatives and assassins do this without effort.

Murauders can do it, but they have to work a little harder to do so.

 

Or you could roll a Vanguard or Powertech and laugh at the entire game as you tank and burst your way through everyone

[Cruxe]

Between a stun, mez, and blind on knockback/bubbleburst you can keep somebody stunned, mezzed, rooted or blinded for literally 30+ seconds out of a minute with 1 sorcerer... and snare them for the other 30 seconds.

 

Mez = 8 seconds

 

Stun = 4 seconds

 

Shield Stun = 3 seconds

 

KB = 5 seconds

 

You = Bull*****ter

[blodtann]

After you mez resolve bar is full. If the player isn't stupid then they will just kill you after you mez them and not waste their free cc break to get out of it.

 

Almost everyone who complains about another class being is OP is the same guy who doesn't know how to play his class or counter other ones. I've yet to see a valid argument against classes being truly "OP".

 

OP= Paladins one shotting people with judgements.

 

OP does not = somone being able to kite another class and kill them.

 

So when a 30 hunter was able to kite and kill a level 60 rogue in WoW that wasn't op (you could never catch up to them, and you could never run away from them)?

Comon.

 

Every other MMO I have played followed some basic rules;

Pure DPS does more damage than a healing class. Healers are squishy and should be protected. Not this game. Apparently healers are supposed can stand face to face with melee dps and just lol in this game.

 

I'm not even talking about the retarded amount of cc in this game, that's beyond the point.

 

Give me ONE compelling reason NOT to play a sorc in pvp (for a gunslinger I can give you a ton of reasons).

 

/blodtann

[savionen]

Mez = 8 seconds

 

Stun = 4 seconds

 

Shield Stun = 3 seconds

 

KB = 5 seconds

 

You = Bull*****ter

 

Over a minute means 3 knockbacks and 3 shield stuns.

 

8 sec, 4 sec, 9sec, 15 sec = 36sec.

Edited February 16, 2012 by savionen

[FodderofCannon]

Cool story bro. Need a pat on your back? Does it make you feel better calling other players basically reta.rds because you are too terrible to beat the class and your ego is too fragile so you need to boost it by calling other players names?

It was easy at level 22? Which class is not easy to play? Answer is none, all are easy to play. Especially at that level.

 

NO really. I found the class to be over the top. Perhaps the class is hard for you?? I kill sorcs regularly on my shadow, they are certainly kill-able, they are just OP when played properly. I found them really, really easy.Din't you? You have played the class right? I am being serious here, you must admit that the class is stronger than most, if not all other classes in pvp?? With all the cc in the game, ranged has a huge advantage to begin with, but with sorc its ranged+heals+insane utility.

 

And, just in case you weren't paying attention: I just said DON'T NERF them.

 

Just to remain balanced, I will level mine to 50 and then see how it changes, but realistically I can't see how it would get worse. All I am saying is pre-50 they have insane utility, great damage, and can heal. In the right hands they don't really have any weakness that I can see. I honestly was laughing when I did wz's cause the class just wrecks stuff. I would have thought I was just awesome if I din't understand how much more difficult other classes are.

 

I called no person names. I just said it's a handicap class. Its fotm. It's easy to play. This is my subjective opinion (as is yours) so you can safely ignore it if you disagree.

 

You and I know secretly you know I am right. Nobody wants to be nerfed, and you are afraid of it. I get it.

[Cruxe]

Over a minute means 3 knockbacks and 3 shield stuns.

 

8 sec, 4 sec, 9sec, 15 sec = 36sec.

 

 

Think you forgot about resolve.

[savionen]

Think you forgot about resolve.

 

Resolve doesn't work on roots or snares.

[shaidarlol]

Over a minute means 3 knockbacks and 3 shield stuns.

 

8 sec, 4 sec, 9sec, 15 sec = 36sec.

 

and out of those 36s, you can't take a single point of damage or else it's only 6-8s,

nice

[Baalazar]

So when a 30 hunter was able to kite and kill a level 60 rogue in WoW that wasn't op (you could never catch up to them, and you could never run away from them)?

Comon.

 

Every other MMO I have played followed some basic rules;

Pure DPS does more damage than a healing class. Healers are squishy and should be protected. Not this game. Apparently healers are supposed can stand face to face with melee dps and just lol in this game.

 

I'm not even talking about the retarded amount of cc in this game, that's beyond the point.

 

Give me ONE compelling reason NOT to play a sorc in pvp (for a gunslinger I can give you a ton of reasons).

 

/blodtann

 

I can give you alot of reasons to play powertech/vanguard,merc/commando, jug/guardian, and shadowtank,sintank. Some of the other classes are lacking the utility of said classes. The solution to nerf said classes, but to maybe give more utility to ia, and smuggler.

 

In wow a rogue in stealth could one shot ambush a level 30 hunter btw.

Edited February 16, 2012 by Baalazar

[Cruxe]

Resolve doesn't work on roots or snares.

 

And a grand total of one of those CCs is a root/snare.

[savionen]

and out of those 36s, you can't take a single point of damage or else it's only 6-8s,

nice

 

Whirlwind doesn't immediately break on damage. I've actually taken the whole 8 seconds while taking damage before.

 

The root turns into a 2sec stun. So if you were spam-attacking the person you could still get 26 seconds. You use the blind to gain distance.

 

And a grand total of one of those CCs is a root/snare.

 

Even if the resolve bar is full, because you decide to whirlwind, stun, and then shield break back to back, resolve still goes away after like 4 seconds. During that time you can still 5 second root somebody and get away. So, lol.

Edited February 16, 2012 by savionen