Just so you guys know when tab targeting and complaining about having to cycle through 6 people...The tab targeting system in this game is dumb. So the trick to targeting the person running right in front of you, closest to you, is to DROP your target, THEN tab. So you're shooting your pewpew ultra grav round telekinetic throw at someone, and someone else comes in front of you that you want to pewpew down. If you just tab, you will cycle to the next person that was next when you targeted the first person. So, click off target (I have clicking ground releases target option checked), then tab. It auto finds the closes person to you on your screen.

If you have champion geared and are getting crushed in WZs or PvP in general against battlemasters, you are bad. That said, it certainly is unfair to those who legitimately obtained their ranks.

Basically, Ilum is a dumber form of Tarren Mill/South Shore.

Agreed, and also, make clicking players actually possible. It's retardedly difficult to accomplish this. I have an easier time playing starcraft 2 at 300 APM while managing 5 bases than I do clicking someone in this game. Or alternatively, you can fix the fricking OPS UI so people on your team actually show up on them for crying out loud.

Since I've gotten FIB, in every voidstar/huttball, I've topped 300k from level 20-37 now. In Alderaan, you're looking at 250-300 tops if you're actually playing objectives and defending points. Mercs and Commandos come nowhere near sages, and you are the hard counter to those classes. A lot of people are smoking crack in this thread too. The only sages that question sage dps in 2/3 warzones are bad ones. You guys are insane if you think Mercs/Commandos can even compare to sages. The amount of utility we get and the amount of overall damage we do is insane.

I'm not certain why people are so against premades. First of all, it's not as if it's an 8 man premade. Second of all, any good players know what they're doing. On Voidstar, if you're killing 2 people and you noticce you have 5, it's time to move to the other side. On Alderaan, if you're fighting 5 v 5 on a node, and you start killing a few people, probably the other side or middle will be hit next. The only map that premades (especially guardians/sages) really can rock is Huttball with passing/pulling/cooldowns. I regularly beat premades with people on my team that know how to play. Am I the only player that has a faction that has solid players? I'm on the Fatman, Republic side by the way.

I think you're bad. I run with a premade of 2 (me and one other) 50% of the time and we beat 4 man premades regularly. I soloqueue 30% of the time and we win most of the games as well. On top of that, we beat 11v8 premade exploit stuff. Maybe you should stick around a premade. You may win more than you think if you're a solid player. You can also help direct people around. Sure, it's more work, but it isn't much more work. It isn't like WoW when it was a premade of 10 or 15. But really "I leave the moment I see it's a premade" sounds pretty pathetic.

The moment someone stops chasing is the moment I turn around and telekinetic throw again. There really is no running away. If you're chasing me, I'm using MC instead of Disturbance and Weaken mind is already on you. None of your arguments are making any sense in regards to Sages.

Sigh. You have to be trolling. What you are saying is impossible for responsible objective players that are trying to protect doors/nodes. The map is designed to be too small. If I don't hit 5 people with TKW, I hit 4, or 3. What if you're melee and the 2-3 of you are trying to focus down a healer? It's unrealistic to say "hey don't stand next to each other." By the way, "don't stand next to each other" in the realm of these AOEs means stand really far away from each other, which is the issue to begin with. Like I said, the FIB imprint on the ground is significantly smaller than what the actual range is.

I don't think you understand the mechanics of the AOE unless you play a sage. If you do, you should know the range of your Force in Balance and it certainly isn't the blue circle on the ground. It is significantly bigger, and so is telekinetic wave. Unless we're standing at separate pillars on a map like Voidstar, we will be hit by the AOE. And when you are forced to clump around the door to stop cappers/try to defuse, sometimes there's no choice. Guys, before we get into more of this stuff, considering the range of the of a Force Sweep for Sentinel. If you've played a sentinel, you know it SUCKS, and misses half the targets in a group. AND you have to stand next to it. Consider how powerful a hybrid build AOE spec is in comparison to a melee range AOE. Let's put that part to bed already. It is way different than Jugg Smash or Marauder Sweep.

Not quoting your Sirolos. I can see your points of view too. Just don't want to make this an uber long post. What I was referring to when nerfing AOE damage is, by the same token, buff single target sustained damage. As I said, my only gripe with Sorcs/Sages in PvP right now is the amount of damage a group puts out. Similarly, I felt Scoundrel/Operatives needed a sustained damage buff to go with their burst nerf. In other words, I wouldn't mind a Weaken Mind buff, a disturbance buff, or the corresponding abilities depending on spec). You also rarely see 3-4 juggs in a warzone together. Secondly, you also don't see them on the same target. Their abilities are not done from ranged too. So FIB + TKW in a hybrid Spec between 3 Sorcs is MASSIVE, at range, and includes all utilities. This is my primary issue with sorcs/sages. Shadows have absurd burst. 3 Shadows could melt one target to the next to the next. But 3 sages could melt 3 targets in voidstar with ease, with the same amount of time it'd need for the 3 shadows to kill one. This is absurdly powerful and why Warzones dominated by Sages/Sorcs on one side is almost always a theme of most Sage/Sorc whine threads posted here.

Just like the Shadow gameplay nerf, I feel nerfs should affect damage output strictly. The game was intentionally designed with innovation in mind (at least, I hope this is the case when BW created the possibility of having hybrid specs). WoW eliminated this completely because balancing it was a nightmare. You are now forced to put in X amount of points in order to open the next tree. Following BWs logic of allowing Hybrid builds/gameplay/styleplay, I felt that a few nerfs were unjustified, and will continue opposing these suggested types of changes (removing CCs, removing utility, removing buttons essentially). I play both a shadow and a sage. I also play a couple of other alts regular (sentinel and commando). The #1 thing I want in this game in terms of class balance is NOT removing hybrid and class utilities. For example, I would have much rather had BW nerf Shadow DAMAGE while in combat stance. So rather than -5%, I would have preferred them trying 10%, or 15%. Instead, they nerfed the damage by making the class incredibly clunky to play in tank stance (for those that care, Project now costs double in combat stance while infiltration spec'ed). The real issue for Shadows/Assassins is that you need to trade MITIGATION for DAMAGE. This is a constantly evolving thing in an MMO. It also is highly dependant on gear, understanding how your stats work together, and understanding when/how to use what's available to you. Instead, it was taken away completely (pretty much) and replaced with "unfun". I would rather nerf the damage on telekinetic wave and force in balance than take away the CCs/AOE Roots/Stuns. Following this line of logic, I also feel Sorcerers/Sages do too MUCH damage when in large groups. With 1 person doing damage, Sage damage is manageable compared to other classes. Both Shadow and Guardian are capable of putting out more burst (different types of damage for different classes, it's acceptable). However, when there's 3 sages, what ends up happening is the GROUP BURST phenomenon. 1 Sage could do 4-7k damage amongst 3-5 people. 3 sages would be doing 15 (probably within 2-3 GCDs of each other) to 3-5 people at once. This is my concern in a warzone considering how small some of them are designed (Voidstar comes to mind). This is my opinion on this matter, and I more than welcome criticism. But I am against anything that CHANGES a class by removing the utilities which make it fun/important in PvP. In short, I would prefer the nerf come in the form of AOE damage (FIB and TKW) moreso than its CC/utility, which is an important role Sages/Sorc play for their teammates.

Double everyone's health. Making healing 1.5x what it is now. Make losing cost you credits. See mass players with no skills leave. See guilds that coordinate and focus fire down people with nice switches. Make gear less relevant. Oh and by the way, watch how server population dwindles. There's no such thing as real PvP anymore because the mass amount of players in all gaming are casual players that don't want to risk anything. CS used to be 1 round per life. BF3, you respawn every 6 seconds. Shadowbane, you used to lose cities. UO, you used to lose your loot. In WoW, you make a graveyard run. In SWTOR, you spawn right where you died (in world PvP). Diminishing Returns have gone the way of Resolve bar in this game too. Too complicated to set up different variables for snares, roots, stuns, and incapacitates, obviously.

Our server (The Fatman) is too stupid to kill trade. Ever since that screen shot came out that basically says as long as you're killing each other, it's OK, our server still has a massive zerg sitting in front of our base while we pull them in for the kill. only a few guilds do the kill trading.

This game is beyond sad at this point. Can we even trust that they will make a rated BG that works properly, won't be bugged (stuck at spawn while getting killed in a knockback?), and won't be exploited to all hell, making legit players having a massive uphill climb to compete? Sigh.

No, there are people getting things. In 28 bags, I've gotten 7 BM tokens, exactly 25%. But THAT is luck. It does give tokens, just at a lower rate than they said (which I have no idea how anyone can screw up). Some of this stuff is beyond disconcerting. This isn't massive system flaws (which the game has, see: Ilum). These are basic variable issues.

It's going to address the warzone exploit where you can have up to 11 players in there, right? There's other things to do if it won't.

This troll works every single day.

Didn't want to quote the whole thing as it will be uber long. However, that said, Shadowbane rewarded the individuals prowess of knowing the game. The use of skills were important in a 1v1 battle, but knowing how and why to spec/customize your character, perhaps the biggest individual factor in the game, was insanely important for a war. The reality of it is that we often won 10 on 60 in Shadowbane due to the game mechanics. Focus fire was heavily rewarded, healing was heavily rewarded, and individual play was heavily limited. It was about teamwork. To address the above, the way this game is designed, it exemplifies individual skills. Players hit "hard." I can pull massive burst in 3 GCDs. I hit hard. You hit hard. So therefore, skill should be the deciding factor, right? In other words, it's a RPS game. My rock counters your scissors. You're about to do this ability, I counter with this, all while weaving in my own offensive abilities. At the same token, given the gear disparities, it almost mitigates the skill involved in defeating an opponent. Make no mistake, this game is built from the ground up on 1v1 encounters and then adding around it. Not the other way around. If that's the case, then as I said earlier, I have no interest in entering Warzones (other than doing my dailies currently) to defeat lesser geared opponents. For the most part, they are already lesser skilled. For the most part, they already don't dedicate the large portion of their time into PvP other than for the shiny purples. So give me an arena where myself and other likeminded folk can battle (with very very little gear disparity) to prove my skill. I know you're not arguing against arena, but I am just speaking generally in a thread that is dedicated to gear and how it plays out in PvP.

Again, I never disputed who the PvPers are. You may be a real solid PvPer. I am disputing the throwing around of the words "World PvP" and calling Warzones real PvP. But that is neither here nor there. I am simply preaching that given our circumstances, there needs to be a separation, so to speak, created in order to segregate the casuals from those that truly are about PvP. In other words, from Cent -> BM is what we need from Champion -> "pick a name". Cent and BM disparity is noticeable. Champion to next tier (rated tier of loot) needs to be. Cent -> new set should be hugely discerning. Believe me, this won't affect casuals. I have no need to go into warzones to slaughter people in cent gear to make myself feel better. Again, that's not the goal of real PvPers. The challenge is what drives that aspect. Those that are casuals get to keep their Warzones, their Champion gear, and whatever can be farmed.

Skill is defined by the ability of a player, matched with another player with only their brains and twitch (in a video game) to defeat another. It certainly is not defined by which stat on a piece of gear they have. For example, the objective of Shadowbane was to kill other players, taunt them, take their cities. This involved coordination, leadership, and mastering of individual skills as well. It also contained diplomacy (another type of skillset) but they all related to the game at hand. You can't have crap players among your group. In Warzones, I can go in against whom I know to be a good opposing player (on an alt) and simply destroy him with about losing 15% of my hp. This isn't skill. This is called my gear is much better than his because I can't do this to his main. In arenas/rated, the highest level of players all wear similar gear. In fact, some players are so "skilled" that they are not yet geared yet and still perform well. I know this from Rated in WoW. Those types of players will be good at any type of PvP game, including the hardcore. BY casuals, I am defining that as a group of players who can attain the same gear as a group that dedicates/cares about only the PvP aspect of the game.

GEAR progression based games, once again, are NOT PvP games. Shadowbane is a PvP game. Literally interpreting Player vs Player via a dictionary doesn't make it true in reality. The endgame of PvP is very simple: Be better than the other player. In order to keep the community inspired to do that, make it so there's risks. WoW PvP/Arena PvP and this games are both not real PvP games. They are simply gear progression based games where everyone has equal shots at getting "good" pvp gear. This is why there needs to be a tier of the best PvP gear and by a good amount.

That's kind of my point in the previous post. Arena based, Rated WZ based PvPers SHOULD have the gear to destroy Cent geared players, and mayhaps Champion geared players. This game is a rewards based system. The hardest of the hardcore PvErs have gear that allow them to complete their task, which is to destroy bosses (and lolol figure out puzzles). Columi and Tionese gear are achievable through HARDMODE FLASHPOINTS. Newsflash, WARZONES equte to Hardmode Flashpoints. It's EASY. The gear being obtained is EASY to obtain through commendations alone. It's even easier with dailies. It is for "casual" players. Just like Columi and Tionese gear are for casual players, so should Champion and Centurion gear. Battlemasters should really be competing with Battlemasters, those that care enough about their choice in the game to do it the best. This is done through some system dedicated to them, such as how a system is dedicated to PvEers (Operations). The BM gear should be acquired through a competitive PvP landscape and should be significantly better than Champion gear. The fact that they didn't do this shows severe design flaws. Grind easy stuff and you can get the 'best' PvP gear in the game. Sit in ilum, get valor. It's pathetic and dishonest to the PvP 'community' in this game, which currently is comprised of the same amount of people who want purples vs those who care about actual PvP.

As I said before already, this game needs an Arena/Rated BG system in order to hand out loots to skilled players that are superior in PvP than PvE gear by a good amount. You guys really don't want PvP. You want to test the items you have against other people who have items. How many quitters do you see the moment the first door gets taken, or the first time the opposing team gets 2 turrets in Alderaan, or the first score in Huttball? It's all driven by "This is a waste of time, let me get carried in another warzone so I can get faster commendations." This game is NOT a PvP game. This game is NOT PvP. It's dueling for items. Pure PvP is based on skill alone, period. More importantly, for the population to get better, it requires risks, and MAYBE rewards. In this game, it's no risk and all rewards. That is a PvE mentality. Even those that don't enjoy PvP will do their 3 games/30 kills (even bigger joke) for bags, for gear, for more purples in their inventory. The system itself is at fault. But given the system, which is a dueling/small scale PvP for casuals, institute a system for those that are more hardcore. Sure, you can say "go play another game", except there isn't one (yet) dedicated to PvPers. Until then, you have a population base that is sick and tired of it being purely gear based. If that's how it should work, then the gear needs to be rewarded to those that are most skilled at PvP just like it is rewarded to those that are most skilled at PvE.

So far, the PvP system in this game is less than desirable (it mirrors WoW, minus Arena). However, this game has by far the best balance in terms of classes, damage, utility, and healing. There's just a lot of whiners any game you play in.