SWTOR: Can you be different? Will you stand on your own feet?

[Zlashie]

Bioware, I think its time you stop following this "formula" which every MMORPG designer in the world is following. let me create an analogy of what I mean.

 

The world consists of 3 different kinds of people. Cake lovers, Pie lovers and those that love both.

 

Recently all the shops have only been selling cake. This is fine since 2/3 likes cake. But for all the pielovers they are left having to eat cake. They dont have any place to go because apparently all the café's agreed that only making cake was the best way to go.

 

Then this new Café opened. It was called Biowaro, a lovely new café. They promised they would make the difference and make pie. This sounded perfect. All the pie lovers quickly turned up and waited for opening day.

 

Opening was perfect. All the pie lovers loved eating pie. For the first time in a long time they could enjoy a delicious pie.

 

But unfortunately Biowaro started to change. Slowly they turned this pie into a cake substance. For each week they changed just a little thing and in time, the pie was no longer a pie. It was a cake. Just like all the other cafe's, and all the Pie lovers? they are bakc to eating cake and being unhappy.

 

The above analogy should demostrate the difference. Due to alot of new changes and additions to the game I ask myself, do all these MMORPG developers follow the same booring guide: "How to create an MMORPG".

 

There are literally no limits to what you can do. Only use your imagination. But still, it seems like all they do is follow eachother. "Lets just do what the other company did. Seems like a good idea!. Im sorry all I read is "slacking".

 

Due to recent changes in the course of SWTOR I ask myself: Are Bioware thinking themselves or are they simply following this formula which all gaming industries follow?

 

 

Be Different. Be New. Stand on your own Feet

We all know that booring radio station were it doesnt matter who you listen to, they all sound the same. Its called Mainstream. Its a phenomen which I do not like. Do I follow it? No. Am I anti-mainstream? Not at all. But I do think when all companies do is following the "mainstream" line, they ruin the chance to be unique and different. Just like the analogy above, you end up with only satisfying 2/3'rds of the group. Sure thats a good start, but when all companies only make cake, you have the group of pie eaters sad in the corner because no companies are making any pie for them.

 

World of Warcraft is king. Its on its pedestal. Is it good? You judge. My opinion: No. I no longer enjoy the taste of cake that is world of warcraft. I have tried a long list of MMORPGs but they argueably all follow the same formula.

 

"You are tired of MMORPGs"

No. Not at all. This is not the problem. World of Warcraft used to be my daily pie. But as mentioned they also slowly turned into cake. Its simply a discussion of MMORPGs all being alike.

 

So what are world of warcraft famous for? (This list will include stuff that other MMORPG Devs created and which Blizzard Copied)

• Flyingmounts
  
• Cross-server-PvP
  
• Cross-Server-LFG Tool
  
• Instanced PvP
  
• Resillience (Divide PvP and PvE into 2 communities)
  
• Instanced Zones
  
• World PvP (Or Simulation of it)
  
• "Gear wheel", Gearing up continuesly
  
• Raiding
  
• Levelling
  
• Classes
  
• Roles. The Trinity
  

 

The above example is argueably a pretty standard formula for current MMORPGs. Does this mean Im talking about SWTOR being different on all aspects? No not at all. Im talking about changing the things people have voiced.

 

Here is a list of things people (not all people) have said they do not like:

 

• Resillience Dividing People into 2 communities.
  
• Flyingmounts
  
• Cross Server Stuff
  
• World of Warcraft Auto LFG Tool
  
• only Focusing on the Gear wheel: No "Fun" stuff to do
  

 

The above is an example of "pie lovers" sharing their opinion with Bioware. Since all other MMORPGs and their mothers dog are doing the same thing, the "pie lovers" are asking to be different.

 

This is the list of what Bioware currently has implemented/Planning to Implement.

 

• 
  
• Resillience Dividing People into 2 communities.
  
• Flyingmounts
  
• Cross Server Stuff
  
• World of Warcraft Auto LFG Tool
  
• only Focusing on the Gear wheel: No "Fun" stuff to do
  

 

A person like me will start to ask. Ok, are they seriously going to do the exact same thing as everyone else? I know, they brought story and voice to the table. I loved levelling from 1-50, dont get me wrong. It was one of the best experiences in my gaming life, But, the majority of my time is spent at lvl 50. That is where this thread came in.

 

Change the course while you still can: Be different

Its pretty easy to understand how EA is thinking about SWTOR: "The MMORPG community is a big community. Blizzard are getting so much money from it. We want a piece of that as well".

 

Can you blame them? No its their job. But I think Bioware needs to put their foot down and be different. Am I saying this game is going to fail? No not at all, im usre it will be successfull. Because no matter if they go for the cake lovers OR the pie lovers, they will most likely ahve 66.66% of the gamers anyways.

 

MMORPGs are investment. The More Time you Invest, the better it is for you.

Alot of people who play SWTOR are ex-WoW Players/Veterans. I, Myself, Played it for 6 years. did I enjoy it? I enjoyed the first 3 years, the other 3 years was just hanging around until another company would start making "pie" again.

 

Think of MMORPGs as time invested. If If you invested 2-6 years in World Of Warcraft, and SWTOR turned out to be just like World of Warcraft, would you stay? Some people would, because having the same car in a new color still feels good. others wouldnt because the new car isnt as well fitted as your old one. People are different.

 

Me personally? I am staying here because of my friends. But it will be like the last 3 years of wow: A virtual chat room, because the game itself will not be for me.

 

Give the "pie Lovers" a game as well. There is 33.33% of the MMORPG community who cant find a game that suits them

We allready mentioned above why so many people left wow.

Some didnt like dividing the community into 2 groups 1 for pvp 1 for pve. Some people hate flyingmounts and how it destroys world pvp. Some people hate Cross server stuff because they like community. The bottom Line: These people Joined SWTOR because they wanted the difference, not the same cake with a new icing.

 

How to be different

For me this boils down to three things.

- Community: I hate cross-server related things

- Fun Stuff: I want fun stuff not "gear grind"

- Customization: The ability to look unique and create "my character".

 

This is my subjective opinion ofcourse and many people will most likely not agree.

 

But my opinion is this: SWTOR cannot go wrong if they focus "fun" and "Customization" rather than "Spend time gearing up and look exacly like everyone else"

 

It doesnt mean I want to remove gearing, but gearing has a start and has an end. Focus both. Create some gearing and add things that people simply to for the sake of entertainment.

 

In my opinion, they should focus: Add more uniqueness to the game. Give people OPTIONS. Give people the ability to be unique. To Be their own hero.

 

And besides that give people reason to log on which is not based on "I need more gear", Because Newsflash: if you do it like that people will stop playing once they finished the geargrind."

 

People play the same damn map in FPS games with the same damn weapons, yet they dont get tired of it

Bioware I encourage you to study other genres of games and take some idears from them. How can it be that I have played the same damn map in Call of Duty 4 and still dont get tired of it whilst doing The False Emperor feels like being stuck at class for 12 hours listening to math?

Be different.

 

MMORPG is not tied down to the same formula. Explore idears that other people did not do. Focus on doing your own thing.

 

The Hard part about this

In my analogy I mentioned 3 kinds of people.

Those that like Cake

Those that like Pie

Those that like both

 

With a suggestion as I mentioned above I will get 3 responses in my thread.

 

"Cake Lovers: This idea sux. Bioware is doing an awesome job"

"Pie Lovers: I fully agree with OP! He has good views!"

"Guys who Like Both: I partially agree. I Actually think x is a good addition so I dont understand why you are against it at all!"

 

How this unfolds will be hard. Will This thread make a difference? Probably not. Game designers are the must stubborn people I have ever met

So Why did I make this thread? Because I personally felt like writing it. For me it is frustrating to look for an MMORPG which does not excist. Because as mentioned, all the café's in town have agreed that only making cake is the best solution for all of us.

 

-Z

[Worfalh]

The best post I've read for a long time. That's exactly why I like SWTOR. It's unique. It has something other MMORPG doesn't.

 

For those pielovers: there are plenty of other games to choose from if this game doesn't hold your interests. PLay them instead. Let SWTOR be unique and let those who like it as it is play and enjoy it.

[Felizcat]

Money talks.

 

The pie feature you like will only be implemented if Bioware thinks more people will play the game. If that number is smaller than the additional subscribers coming from a cake feature, you lose.

 

The pie niche will only be filled if Bioware learns that there is a market for them. The learning process can be very slow, since there is risk involved. The risk that prediction and reality don't match. If the reality outdoes the prediction, eventually even the cake makers will implement the feature. But the risk involved will force the developers to take only small steps into pie features, or only one step at the time. As an example for small step, compare the number of cut scenes in Lich King to Cataclysm.

 

The only place where you can get your pie are places who are to small to handle cake, or from places who aren't into making pie just for the money.

[Gwenny]

The cake is a lie!

 

 

 

 

(Sorry couldn't resist)

[SamuraBob_Fl]

I agree that fun stuff is better than the gear grind.

 

That said, I'm curious as to what your precise suggestions would be for that.

[knightblaster]

The thing is that "community"-oriented MMOs are a thing of the past. MMOs today are mass market games, and, as such, are primarily about the gaming experience of most players, which is shortish gaming sessions based on limited play time. This is the majority of the market -- much bigger than the "community" oriented players who are more old school. What happened was that the MMO market became much bigger, became mainstream, and basically swamped the old school MMO players in size, and so the games began to be designed to cater to the larger market. That's not going to change, really.

[Scandana]

The cake is a lie!

 

 

 

 

(Sorry couldn't resist)

 

This...

 

 

Typos aside (what's an idear?), you do raise some interesting points there OP. I would classify myself under pie eater in your analogy, if that is the case, though I am an SWG veteran, NOT a WoW (never played it) vet.

[spoonguy]

Blizzard attracted kids to start playing MMORPGs ... they kept this player base while still attacting more kids year on year having a player base that grew up with the game ... they make more money with cake as kids love cake. Look at the next expansion ... its marketing for kids, if cake is where the money is ... why advertise pie?

 

Don't get me wrong ... I'd love some pie, but the best you can hope for is mini pies with your huge cake

Edited February 14, 2012 by spoonguy

[Mephismo]

The best post I've read for a long time. That's exactly why I like SWTOR. It's unique. It has something other MMORPG doesn't.

 

For those pielovers: there are plenty of other games to choose from if this game doesn't hold your interests. PLay them instead. Let SWTOR be unique and let those who like it as it is play and enjoy it.

 

Well done, you managed to miss-read the OP

 

But hey I like Cake and Pie:)

[Dantragk]

The best post I've read for a long time. That's exactly why I like SWTOR. It's unique. It has something other MMORPG doesn't.

 

For those pielovers: there are plenty of other games to choose from if this game doesn't hold your interests. PLay them instead. Let SWTOR be unique and let those who like it as it is play and enjoy it.

 

Wow, you're not even... just... I don't even know.

 

TOR is not unique. "It's the same cake with different icing." It has nothing other MMOs don't. There is not game for pie lovers.

 

Btw OP, what do you think pie lovers are looking for?

[Suzsi]

SWG was my Pie, they shut it down. Was hoping TOR might be my next pie but it's not looking that way. I'm holding out hope for now but can really only do that for so long before the constant taste of cake gets too much. Edited February 14, 2012 by Suzsi

[Tic-]

I never imagined this game to be anything more than the standard cake MMO.

 

I knew i wouldn't last, but i thought i would try it out the stories/pvp in case it was a little more pie than i than i thought. Sadly, that little bit of pie, is surrounded by so much cake, that i now have cake coming out me nose again.

[Dantragk]

Describe your pie and what you think the pie should taste like.

[Suzsi]

Wow, you're not even... just... I don't even know.

 

TOR is not unique. "It's the same cake with different icing." It has nothing other MMOs don't. There is not game for pie lovers.

 

Btw OP, what do you think pie lovers are looking for?

 

For this pie lover the answer would be

 

- more soloable content.

 

- More interesting quest series with awesome stories.

 

- Less forced grouping and / or raiding just to get the 'good stuff'. ( other way's would be nice, like those long quest series with good stories mentioned above)

 

- More 'fun' things outside of main stream shoot and kill - like I dunno, swoop racing that has rewards maybe? Pazaak games with rewards too. Stuff like that, fun social stuff.

 

- More RP features.

 

- Somewhere to decorate with cool rewards from 'fun' social stuff.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Suzsi

[SamuraBob_Fl]

For this pie lover the answer would be

 

- more soloable content.

 

- More interesting quest series with awesome stories.

 

- Less forced grouping and / or raiding just to get the 'good stuff'. ( other way's would be nice, like those long quest series with good stories mentioned above)

 

- More 'fun' things outside of main stream shoot and kill - like I dunno, swoop racing that has rewards maybe? Pazaak games with rewards too. Stuff like that, fun social stuff.

 

- More RP features.

 

- Somewhere to decorate with cool rewards from 'fun' social stuff.

 

I definitely would like more soloable content.

 

But what would it look like? More dailies?

[Tic-]

Describe your pie and what you think the pie should taste like.

 

 

For me,

 

That would take some time i'm thinking. Never sat down to actually contemplate it, but with my roots in UO, EvE, DAoC, and the like, i would probably begin in there somewhere with my thought process.

 

300 million or so dollars and 6 years to work on it would really help as well.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Tic-

[Suzsi]

I definitely would like more soloable content.

 

But what would it look like? More dailies?

 

No, read on. Long quest series with awesome stories = soloable content

[Astron_]

Without the classtories and voiceovers for all the generic side-quests, this game is exactly like all other mmo's....just worse because of glaring bugs, static worlds and just plain over mediocrity in all departements.

 

Unique? Don't make me laugh....

[CeiLican]

I want to like this game!

 

 

However aside from the story..

 

I am not seeing the difference in this, versus other MMOs.

 

 

 

I feel honestly that BIOWARE could in fact learn somethings from previous games and adapt, evolve, go in a different direction, take the "Good" from previous environments and make something better.

 

I feel as though they chose to go the lazy/slacker route simply to give us something that would "work" to make money but not much else.

 

We want to be entertained, we want to have fun, we want to spend our time and money on something that is fun and enticing, different and alluring.

 

SWTOR really isn't.

 

 

 

This I wish BIOWARE implemented-

 

Character customization - ala Cryptic (Champions Online) anyone that has seen this knows what I mean.

Races - We want choices given the expanse of the Star Wars Universe

Space - akin SWG/Tie Fighter or something remotely requiring intelligence.

Crafting - akin SWG or something remotely requiring intelligence.

Experience - gain/skill gain separate from Space/PVP/PVE

Gear - separate for each Space/PVP/PVE

Level System - removed, gain through skill focus

Assorted Crystal colors

Ability to actually JUMP as a force user, or short burst ability - ala non combat jump pack,

jet boots/Grappling hook.

Non stagnant environment - Day/Night (SWG or akin)

Graphic option back for unifying our gear!

Preference setting to isolate loot from Companion chat.

UI Option for disabling fly text for "targets out of range" and other red messages that we are currently unable to disable.

Disable annoying Droid on ship.

 

My complaints -

Get rid of the sorry excuse for wannabe Samurai armor that is available for the Republic.

If anything that is a dishonor to the look of the Samurai.

Did Bioware not pay attention to the variety and level of detail that was involved in Samurai armor?

Jedi or modeled after but not the same as Samurai anyway..

 

Yes Lucas did want to model the Jedi after the Samurai in code of honor and following Bushido/Buddhist monks on some level, but BIOWARE just pissed all over that.

 

meh I could be here all day.

 

Make the Republic side FUN..frankly being the good guy can be fun if done right, Empire side is far more appealing for me anyhow.

 

The dialogue for much of character interaction is somethign to be considered with many times, chat options being identical and old after a while.

 

 

 

 

/rant for now

[stormie_sarge]

I think that this game does have some elements of the Pie, and more importantly the foundations of Pie. While they have a large amount of cake (I enjoy running dungeons and such) it would be interesting to see some elements of Pie thrown in. Colicoid War Games is a good example of something that is a deviation from the norm. I am hopeing that they make the space aspect as immearsive as the ground content too, though I understand that will be a long and tireing coding process. If they get it off that will really shake up the MMO world, especially if it is able to both simualate the fun of the fighter games with the immearsion of the MMO universe. maybe that will be their "flying" mounts lol. They could also turn some new planets into the fabled sandbox, but that would be an experiment that would definitly turn alot of heads. I think that spaceship customation will be the first step into the world of sandboxing that is talked about though. It would be pretty cool to customize our ships

[Zlashie]

For me the "Pie" Is simply:

 

- Community: No cross server anything No matter what.

 

- No Flying Mounts

 

- Fun Stuff: Social things to do, focus on the enjoyment of things not on "various ways to keep playing". Funny thing is most people will actually play actively if its fun. I dont know where these gaming guys got the idea that without gear grind people will auto-flee away from games.

 

- As much customization as possible. For instance I think the republic and the empire classes should bea ble to choose eachothers counter weapon. I could see a gunslinger using a sniper as a lethal weapon. I mean Jedi knights can allready use the "sith weapon" a.k.a red crystals.

Equally I believe that the choise of lightsaber isnt based on class but style of play. Using 1h lightsaber should be a slow and hard hitting weapon, Dual 1h's should be quick but not too hard hitting so that its more "sustained" and finally the Double bladed should be the medium choise.

 

- More Races, and actual alien races. If its a problem with voiceover choose the ones that can learn to speak English

 

- Move Armor textures. Im tired of recolours. Its the "lazy" way to go. We dont have 1000s of items as you said, we have 3-6 textures for each class and than a billion recolours. If I play a Jedi Knight its next to impossible to look unique: You end up looking like the 100 other Jedi Knigts on your server. The Game advertises itself as "Begin Your Saga", give us options to actually look unique enough for it to be "our" saga.

 

- Remove the idea that Star Wars is based on 8 "Characters" from the Movie. use a Jedi Knight wants to be Luke Skywalker and a Smuggler wants to be Han Solo but when you see a hundred Han Solo's a day you get tired of the same stereotype. How about some options for making our own character personal? Not just looks but playstyle as well.

 

- Finally the most important one is: Remove instances from the Fleet and focus on making people move out of the fleet. We ahve a city called Coruscant and all the place really is, is a levelling zone. What about cantinas, Cantinas are next to useless? Make it feel like we are in a Star Wars Universe

 

I guess in general im asking for this game to be focusing on community, individualism and world pvp: as in how it would be in a real Star Wars Universe. A sith and a Jedi randomly meet and start fighting.

[yodimaster]

I guess I'm a pie eater! I agree with the op. MMO's now are just following the cookie cutter recipe and just adding some sprinkles on top!

 

I've played wow for years off and on since release and the game is nothing now but a Facebook type game to me. All you do is sit in a hub (Orgrimmar/Stormwind) all day just auto-LFG or. Porting to BG's, or listening to bad jokes about that nobody Chuck Norris!

 

Stwor is a fun game to me story wise but its not fun to me outside of that aspect as I refuse to get caught up in another gear wheel grind fest! I loved the gear in final fantasy 11 where you could still wear lvl 6 boots all the way to lvl 70 or your lvl 50 ish gear was just as good if not better than some of the 70+ gear.

 

Both games lack anything to do outside of PvP or raiding. Both games are just shards of instances with no sense of exploration.

 

Some say GW2 will suit me and it might but it still doesn't offer all the features I'm looking for. Archeage is something I'm looking at that may peek my intrest, but its still 2 years out before NA will see a translated release ( Korean made MMO but has a Western feel ala be no skimming little girls clothing).

[Seiryuu]

While your post has some merit, and I agree with you that there is a market (a need, even) for more original MMO's, I think there are 2 major flaws in your argument:

 

1. They never said they'd be serving Pie, but rather, cake "with a cherry on top".

 

2. While it's true that you can divide the community in 3 groups (cake lovers, pie lovers, lovers of both), it's not neccesarily true that they are equally large groups. I fear that they cake lovers far outnumber the other 2 groups. Which is why everyone is selling cake... it's where the money's at.

[Specktra]

Man i almos thought ur going for team america bar speech. Sadly i was mistaken.

[Zlashie]

Man i almos thought ur going for team america bar speech. Sadly i was mistaken.