Fix Juggs

[Krilox]

50 columni/rakata jugg here, rank 64.

 

First off let me say I'm still enjoying my class, but there are, in my opinion some seriously annoying issues with the class.

 

We do fine in PvP, but lack in PvE due to some issues (compared to the other tanks):

 

- AE threat is commonly known to be horrid. No I don't want WoW glue easy-mode, but we really don't have good tools to generate good ae tps. Give vicious sweep more damage (laughable currently) and add a thread mod if possible.

 

- General TPS - Backhand is great, but as the only high threat modifier, and on a 1 min cd, it won't do much except in the occasional threat boost combined with a taunt.

 

- Rakata set is horribly itemized, but as far as i've read, we're' not the only ones facing this issue.

 

- I don't mind having 20 abilities or so to vary from at all times, but some feel seriously redudant, especially in Soresu. Merge some abilities if possible, or give Sundering Strike a reduced/removed CD.

 

- DPS in Tank-mode - I've few to no problems holding aggro on single-target mobs, even though it might take more effort than other classes. Having a 50 PT in t1 gear though, i *feel* that im pumping out way more damage, for even less effort.

 

- Smash - Why does it have half the effect radius of other AE's?

 

- DPS survivability - Sure, i don't except us to be mad sturdy in rage/veng specs, but there is a glaring hole in our survivability especially as rage spec. This has been recognized by devs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Other posts about jugg issues:

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=51325

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=296542

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=293483

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=287886

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=284138

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=250316

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=286264

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=288776

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=236162

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=236162

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=267526

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=235473

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=232302

 

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=263291

Edited February 14, 2012 by Krilox
Typo

[Krilox]

- Remove rage cost on our interrupt..

[Helig]

While I don't think that Guards\Juggs need an across-the-beard buffs, all Warrior\Knight classes definitely need general quality-of-life improvements.

[Darth_Vampirius]

BTW, the title of this thread is a censored word in SWTOR. Watch your mouth, OP! Edited February 14, 2012 by Darth_Vampirius

[Krilox]

While I don't think that Guards\Juggs need an across-the-beard buffs, all Warrior\Knight classes definitely need general quality-of-life improvements.

 

I agree, except for perhaps PvE damage while full Immortal and threat.

 

Otherwise, making the playstyle more fluent would be very welcome.

[KVork]

Nice thread, realy good pointing out.

 

- Add strong knockdown to smash, may be through talent. Or add Threat multiplayer to smash or Force Scream.

 

- Why force Push does not "generate great threat" ? and is still talented together in pair with threatening scream (aoe taunt). Vide point about Backhand.

 

- Sweaping Slash damage.... compared to ANY OTHER aoe in this game, adding ridicoulus cost/effect (costs same as smash, talented dealing less than 40% of smash damage without even talented debuff said smash has) - need to add that Talented Smash deals like 5 times more damage in certain cases. - This skill is almost useless, it is baffling what devs thought.

 

 

I got some creepy feeling that SW was one of the first, if not first class to be developed, and so much changed since then that it is simply obsolete in design compared to other classes. It lacks balance, and even stoic SW tanks keep calm and try to say, "hey, you did it wrong". But we try to "say" not "SHOUT" and thats why we see such an idiocy as bichem nerfs forced by whiners, leading to more whining, instead of some fixes to Underpowered class, insetad of nerfing developed later and propably better suited for content classes like Sin or IA.

 

Howgh.

[Krilox]

Nice thread, realy good pointing out.

 

- Add strong knockdown to smash, may be through talent. Or add Threat multiplayer to smash or Force Scream.

 

- Why force Push does not "generate great threat" ? and is still talented together in pair with threatening scream (aoe taunt). Vide point about Backhand.

 

- Sweaping Slash damage.... compared to ANY OTHER aoe in this game, adding ridicoulus cost/effect (costs same as smash, talented dealing less than 40% of smash damage without even talented debuff said smash has) - need to add that Talented Smash deals like 5 times more damage in certain cases. - This skill is almost useless, it is baffling what devs thought.

 

 

I got some creepy feeling that SW was one of the first, if not first class to be developed, and so much changed since then that it is simply obsolete in design compared to other classes. It lacks balance, and even stoic SW tanks keep calm and try to say, "hey, you did it wrong". But we try to "say" not "SHOUT" and thats why we see such an idiocy as bichem nerfs forced by whiners, leading to more whining, instead of some fixes to Underpowered class, insetad of nerfing developed later and propably better suited for content classes like Sin or IA.

 

Howgh.

 

Agreed, more threat modifiers would be great, either on smash or sweep.

 

The latter is true actually, i was in the beta for a long time, other classes did get a revamp at the end of the beta, while SW/JK's didnt get the attention they deserved back then.

 

As someone mentioned earlier, the quality of life suffered because of this, the class is more tedious than it should be.

[Darkschnyder]

I got some creepy feeling that SW was one of the first, if not first class to be developed, and so much changed since then that it is simply obsolete in design compared to other classes.

 

I feel the same way while the PT / VG certainly feels like a more efficient and effective tank.

 

If bioware is worried so much about how tanking juggernaut changes would affect the other two trees (smash for rage / focus spec does not need a wider AoE) why not just throw the class changing talents deep into the tree so the only people to benefit from them are the tanks. Or they could just tack on benefits from selecting one spec as their main (I hate to refer to WoW but that was one of the very few things they did right). I realize this kind of kills cookie-cutter builds but I think it is worth it in the end.

[KVork]

sorr, burst. Edited February 14, 2012 by KVork
doublepost

[Krilox]

I feel the same way while the PT / VG certainly feels like a more efficient and effective tank.

 

If bioware is worried so much about how tanking juggernaut changes would affect the other two trees (smash for rage / focus spec does not need a wider AoE) why not just throw the class changing talents deep into the tree so the only people to benefit from them are the tanks. Or they could just tack on benefits from selecting one spec as their main (I hate to refer to WoW but that was one of the very few things they did right). I realize this kind of kills cookie-cutter builds but I think it is worth it in the end.

 

It's not like the current builds are so customizable anyway. Current build offer identity-crisis', while dedicated trees could at least cut out a clear role and playstyle better.

[Rotha]

I agree with the OP. Give SW some love. Especially Immortal.

 

+1

[Elyx]

+1 here too.

 

and it would be easy to add a few enhancements further up in the tree. +30% damage to Vicious sweep with a few talent points. a talent that increases radius and threat of smash by 40%. put them in the last few tiers of the tree.

 

Mark up our bleed damage. simple changes to talents that woudl make a vast difference, yet not turn the juggernaut into an unstoppable DPS (scuz the pun ) juggernaut.

 

reduce teh CD of our ONE across the board defensive skill by half. or give is a bleed heal. i'd prefer the CD reduction (goes along with the class design...managing CD's)

[Soluss]

Another possiblitiy is to change guard to transfer threat instead of damage. Of course that would kind of kill guard in PVP.

[Krilox]

Another possiblitiy is to change guard to transfer threat instead of damage. Of course that would kind of kill guard in PVP.

 

Why not both?

[Geewiz]

Juggs need serious help in pve. In pvp they do alright, lots of mobility. I think all the heay armor classes should have a boff against certain CC though.

 

How can you blind me when i have a full face helmet on? star wars has the tech to travel faser than light but cant deal with a flashbang?

 

Heavy armor classes should also be knockback resistant or get knocked back a shorter distance due to the armor weight.

 

All armor classes should be able to specialize in what type of damage they want to mitigate.

 

Internal/energy mitigation is pathetic.

 

Shields/absorb/defense should work in pvp.

 

All stealth classes should lose stealth and gain something else to compensate. I thought there was going to be no "invisible man". At least make it not usable to escape combat.

 

Give is something to spend credits on. The economy is a joke.

 

If healing is nerfed in pvp, nerf damage too.

 

Oh, and give me a ship capable of orbitally bombarding illum (me only) center assault. Im sick of competing against my own team. They should have broken gear as a result, and not be ale to respawn for at least 15 minutes.

[Drakainen]

50 columni/rakata jugg here, rank 64.

 

 

- I don't mind having 20 abilities or so to vary from at all times, but some feel seriously redudant, especially in Soresu. Merge some abilities if possible, or give Sundering Strike a reduced/removed CD.

 

Thought the same thing here, should have sunder completely replace the basic attack.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Drakainen

[Teioh_White]

To start with, I'd like to remove the stun component of Backhand, and lower the recast down to 15 seconds. As it is now, it's pretty useless, as while yes, it does generate more aggro than say Vicious Slash, it's low base damage makes it a waste of a talent point on Bosses.

 

I'd next want to change the rage reduction on chilling scream into sweeping slash, and shove that into some other tree, like rage. That way, you could get backhand and sweeping slash down to one rage, making them very spammable, also making that +15% damage talent to those skills have a lot more synergy, rather than the waste of talent points it currently is.

[Khabarach]

To start with, I'd like to remove the stun component of Backhand, and lower the recast down to 15 seconds. As it is now, it's pretty useless, as while yes, it does generate more aggro than say Vicious Slash, it's low base damage makes it a waste of a talent point on Bosses.

 

I'd next want to change the rage reduction on chilling scream into sweeping slash, and shove that into some other tree, like rage. That way, you could get backhand and sweeping slash down to one rage, making them very spammable, also making that +15% damage talent to those skills have a lot more synergy, rather than the waste of talent points it currently is.

Those two changes would pretty much eliminate Immortal Juggs from PvP.

[LordExozone]

To start with, I'd like to remove the stun component of Backhand, and lower the recast down to 15 seconds. As it is now, it's pretty useless, as while yes, it does generate more aggro than say Vicious Slash, it's low base damage makes it a waste of a talent point on Bosses.

 

I'd next want to change the rage reduction on chilling scream into sweeping slash, and shove that into some other tree, like rage. That way, you could get backhand and sweeping slash down to one rage, making them very spammable, also making that +15% damage talent to those skills have a lot more synergy, rather than the waste of talent points it currently is.

 

You don't PvP do you?

[Teioh_White]

Not in Immortal Spec, I don't. Attaching free snare into another Tree's bottom talents wouldn't change anything, and if losing one stun ruins Immortals, that just shows how useless the tree is in PvP.

[Anatlos]

Another possiblitiy is to change guard to transfer threat instead of damage. Of course that would kind of kill guard in PVP.

 

If it's working according to the tooltip (which I'm pretty sure it is), guard only transfers 50% of the damage done to its target by other players. Therefore, the damage split doesn't do anything in PvE. In light of that, since threat doesn't exist in PvP, this change would completely kill guard.

[Anatlos]

Not in Immortal Spec, I don't. Attaching free snare into another Tree's bottom talents wouldn't change anything, and if losing one stun ruins Immortals, that just shows how useless the tree is in PvP.

 

The Immortal tree is all about harassment, crowd control, and mitigation of damage in PvP. Getting rid of 2 of their most frequently used crowd controlling abilities would in fact screw it up pretty bad.

[Krilox]

The Immortal tree is all about harassment, crowd control, and mitigation of damage in PvP. Getting rid of 2 of their most frequently used crowd controlling abilities would in fact screw it up pretty bad.

 

Agreed!

 

Big changes arent realistic at the moment. Keep backhand, its great. Add threat and damage to sweep + an another (maybe 2-3) ability (the 31 point immortal one?)

 

Double smash ae range. Add survivability to rage/veng.

[Krilox]

Oh, and give us Force pull back. The other tanks have it.

[Karnafex]

Hey guys i posted this in another thread but that thread seems to be dead and gone, what do you all think about these?

 

 

So having played both a jugg and Mara to 50 and geared them out I can say that the jugg is a decent ways behind in damage, more so then the devs first said. Not to say they are bad though. So let's start with what changes I think could fix the class.

 

PVE

1. Immortal tanks need atleast one more big threat generator, I say put it on a heavy cd or incorporate with a skill they already have.

 

2. Vengeance dots are definitely sub-par in damage comparitive and overall. Maybe have the dots not deal more damage but add a buff like 5% increased damage over all for each bleed. It wouldn't allow for a constant 15% damage thanks to CDs but it would give us a boost or you could even make dots give your next forcescream like 25% More damage on use.

 

3. With vengeance you could make shatters direct damage hit a little harder, the dot is fine since it's almost inmitigatable but Thr direct physical damage could use a boost.

 

4. And lastly we could use a small survivability boost in the form of a heal. I was thinking along the lines for say a x% of health regained over so many seconds or "for x seconds you regain health from a % of damage recieved during this time to a maximum of z% of your maximum health." the latter would actually be balanced like the Marauders undying rage, all you have to do is cc them and it negates any healing in a 1v1 scenario and with the cap it doesn't make it overpowered in a 5v1 either.

 

I know people are going to ask about rage but in my opinion rage is fine with damage output, between force crush which gives me 4 seconds to do whatever I want, obliterate to help close a gap, I think they do extremely well in any area.

 

Also, i just threw percentages in there they are hard numbers I did alot of math on to balance.