Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[Senatsu]

What you think about this?

http://i.imgur.com/GC5SR.jpg

To see the thread this came from go to http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=191286

 

Wow. I love it. So you can see the classes/roles the group/person needs for either a FP or group quest and all you have to do is right click to send a request to join? Sounds very much like the Aion version.

 

Very nice, me likey.

[Moricthian]

plain and simple, i played WoW for 4 years. i let my buddy play on my pc while i played skyrim. hes never played wow or any other mmo. he lvled himselft to lvl 15 then stood around in Org queing for LFG till lvl 85. he didnt see the world he didnt know his class, he didnt see the game for what it was. basicly if LFG comes into play theres no need for ppl to go quest and see the game, they can have everything handed to them via LFG. kinda like a microwave i want it fast and now. LFG will be a fail idea and will kill the game.

 

And what if they want to do dungeons to 50? Who are you to tell them how to play the game? Besides, people can do that now with the PvP que. Should they get rid of that too? If people would rather do flashpoints than quest, l let them. If BW was smart they'd let people play however they want (with the exception of cheating or exploits) because that would keep people interested longer and they'd keep their subs.

[Pink_Saber]

You need to support this claim with more than just anecdotal evidence.

 

Nobody *needs* to do any such thing. This isn't a debate class.

 

Frankly, all most of us have for any of our positions is anecdotal evidence. Have you got hard facts to back up your unstated position? I'd guess not.

[Ravoss]

"1# A LFD tool will ruin/destroy the community.

 

People look at the LFD tool and claim that it goes against creating a community on the server. That's just not true at all, instead you should ask yourself, what Bioware can do to gather people around at specific places? - socialize as you call it.

 

Numerous suggestions have been made in the 'suggestion' forum e.g. card mini-games, expanded cantinas, an actual functioning Casino at Nar Shaddaa.

 

THESE are the things people should be complaining about and not things that might potentially ruin someone elses game because they choose a server that is now a low-pop server, or people who want's to get the most out of their playtime.

 

TL;DR - BW should make features/events that will gather people around at specific places to do stuff together. "

 

This is entirely your opinion. It is also the MAIN reason why those against an LFD tool are against it.

 

Just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it true.

 

I saw what it did in wow, both pve and pvp, and played before anything was instituted. They DO kill a servers community, and I wont be swayed from this opinion.

 

Please BW. DONT LISTEN TO THESE PEOPLE! I want a community to play with, not a loot pinata.

[Moricthian]

Nobody *needs* to do any such thing. This isn't a debate class.

 

Frankly, all most of us have for any of our positions is anecdotal evidence. Have you got hard facts to back up your unstated position? I'd guess not.

 

It depends on the position and the claim. If I'm going to make the claim "a LFG tool will lead to content nerfs," then you need evidence to actually convince neutral people of your claims. This perosn is trying to state a fact not an opinion.

 

On the other hand the claim "I want there to be a LFG tool" is stating a personal preference. The only evidence needed is my opinion.

[GalacticKegger]

If we can somehow convince everyone to stop committing crimes, our society would be better.

 

While trying to get everyone to use the current lfg tool is a worthy vision, its just not realistic. We need a better solution.

Or BioWare needs to publish how to use it in the holonet, and give it prominence in the game's Codex. Perhaps the system can use a polished interface down the road to be more intuitive. Regardless, if people choose to not want to learn a new way of doing something then that is their choice. The game already has one and those who use like it a lot. Edited February 15, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Gungan]

plain and simple, i played WoW for 4 years. i let my buddy play on my pc while i played skyrim. hes never played wow or any other mmo. he lvled himselft to lvl 15 then stood around in Org queing for LFG till lvl 85. he didnt see the world he didnt know his class, he didnt see the game for what it was. basicly if LFG comes into play theres no need for ppl to go quest and see the game, they can have everything handed to them via LFG. kinda like a microwave i want it fast and now. LFG will be a fail idea and will kill the game.

 

I think he knew his class just fine, as that has nothing to do with exploring the world. It doesn't have to teleport you to the instance, they're all at the fleet anyways.

[Moricthian]

Or BioWare needs to publish how to use it in the holonet, and give it prominence in the game's Codex. Perhaps the system can use a polished interface down the road to be more intuitive. Regardless, if people choose to not want to learn a new way of doing something then that is their choice. The game already has one.

 

Here's the problem, from a buisness standpoint, this is a terrible attitude to have. If players don't care enough to learn how to use a complicated LFG tool, then they won't use it and then complain/unsub. BW can push that they learn it till their blue in the face but if players still arn't willing, BW will lose money as players leave the game. If BW is just content to say "well they don't care enough to learn so its their own fault," they will lose subs.

 

Let's pretend I open a resturant but its complicated to get to. As a result nobody is eating there. Is it a good business model to conclude: "People just arn't taking the time to learn how to get to my resturant, I could change to a better location but its their fault for not learning." This will lead to your buisness failing. BW needs to adapt and change as players voice their opinions. Seeing as only a handful of people use the current system this is evidence that a vast majority of players either don't know about it, don't care about it, or don't want to use it. Whatever reason, BW needs to adapt and change to what the majority of players are doing. If they don't, this game will fall by the wayside.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Moricthian

[Agenteusa]

It depends on the position and the claim. If I'm going to make the claim "a LFG tool will lead to content nerfs," then you need evidence to actually convince neutral people of your claims. This perosn is trying to state a fact not an opinion.

 

So, here you say that he needs evidence.

 

Whatever reason, BW needs to adapt and change to what the majority of players are doing. If they don't, this game will fall by the wayside.

 

But here (your words) whats your evidence??

 

You don´t even know for a fact if teh majority of players want it , do you?

[Shadowkai]

The Aion tool is certainly the perfect mix between the system right now and the LFD system in World of Warcraft.

 

I agree! I wish we could build strong, unified support for this type of LFG tool, let people use it for a while, and re-evaluate (instead of everyone tearing each other down).

 

Group leveling content in this game is great. Let's help people not miss it!

[Taroen]

It depends on the position and the claim. If I'm going to make the claim "a LFG tool will lead to content nerfs," then you need evidence to actually convince neutral people of your claims. This perosn is trying to state a fact not an opinion.

 

On the other hand the claim "I want there to be a LFG tool" is stating a personal preference. The only evidence needed is my opinion.

 

It should be obvious. And it has happened before.

 

When a random green group becomes the standard defacto group, all of the content will need to be tuned for that group. And instant cross-server LFD groups are inferior in many ways, even to just a standard PUG. Catering to the lowest common denominator brings the entire game down.

 

Even if you allow for the fact that many good players would use such a system, it would still lead to weaker groups. If all four players are good, they've still most likely never played together before and have no familiarity with each other's tendancy and style. Drop in a guy that is undergeared for the content and the group gets weaker. Add the guy that really doesn't uderstand his class, or is wearing gear for a different class altogether, and it becomes MUCH weaker. Finish it off with the guy that loves to grief/ninja, or just act like a douche in general because the system caters to that, and you're left with a group standard that is FAR below even the average PUG.

 

I like this thread a lot more than most, because people are actually making cogent arguments about the problem, and what a solution should be, instead of trying to shout each other down and making the same tired claims like "If you don't like it, don't use it.... It doesn't effect you." But it DOES effect everyone.

 

I think pretty much everyone can agree that the current system is very weak. A much stronger LFG system needs to be in place to help people get together for these flashpoints and heroic 4s, but a WoW style cross-server system is a poor solution. A stand-alone server-wide system where people can flag themselves showing their spec and which content they're interest in doing would be a great start.

Edited February 15, 2012 by Taroen

[navarh]

When you add servers to the same queue, you increase the population size in the queue. So, if there is a 1000 players per server looking for group, that means 3000 players total need groups.

sorry to inform you but 9 party per hour of 3000 is posible only if amount of tank's and healers is 18 or 0.6% of that

seems legit

You obviously never played WoW pre-wrath.

nice try

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/character/fordragon/%D0%9D%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%80%D1%85/achievement#81

but not enough

You dint CC you wiped, period. You had players that broke CC, you wiped. It was a part of the mechanics of the fight and actually did make the fights more challenging.

and if you cc and no-one broke it all content becomes cc-kill, cc-kill, repeat

class with no cc become underdog for no reason, class with cc become auto-skill, ofc this elitards (again for no reason) defend the "mechanics" that make them so special

Edited February 15, 2012 by navarh

[Moricthian]

So, here you say that he needs evidence.

 

 

 

But here (your words) whats your evidence??

 

You don´t even know for a fact if teh majority of players want it , do you?

 

You're quoting me out of context. I only said the majority of players don't use the current LFG tool. I think that's pretty clearly the case. I however, have no idea what the majority of players think about an automated LFG tool.

[Moricthian]

It should be obvious. And it has happened before.

 

When a random green group becomes the standard defacto group, all of the content will need to be tuned for that group. And instant cross-server LFD groups are inferior in many ways, even to just a standard PUG. Catering to the lowest common denominator brings the entire game down.

 

Even if you allow for the fact that many good players would use such a system, it would still lead to weaker groups. If all four players are good, they've still most likely never played together before and have no familiarity with each other's tendancy and style. Drop in a guy that is undergeared for the content and the group gets weaker. Add the guy that really doesn't uderstand his class, or is wearing gear for a different class altogether, and it becomes MUCH weaker. Finish it off with the guy that loves to grief/ninja, or just act like a douche in general because the system caters to that, and you're left with a group standard that is FAR below even the average PUG.

 

I like this thread a lot more than most, because people are actually making cogent arguments about the problem, and what a solution should be, instead of trying to shout each other down and making the same tired claims like "If you don't like it, don't use it.... It doesn't effect you." But it DOES effect everyone.

 

I think pretty much everyone can agree that the current system is very weak. A much stronger LFG system needs to be in place to help people get together for these flashpoints and heroic 4s, but a WoW style cross-server system is a poor solution. A stand-alone server-wide system where people can flag themselves showing their spec and which content they're interest in doing would be a great start.

 

Your argument is contingent on the assumption that the current method of finding groups somehow leads to better group performance. You need to provide evidence as to why a gorup with automated feature will somehow perform at a lower level as a group put together through spamming chat channels.

 

Your argument is also assuming BW will nerf content to the weakest of players. You have no idea whether or not this is the case. Even in WOW, blizzard did eventually nerf stuff but it was for reasons that we don't know. To simply assume it was because of an LFG tool while ignoring all the other factors/reasons is irrational.

 

These two assumptions are pivatol to your argument, and if you can't substantiate them with facts and evidence, there's no reason to believe what you say is true.

[navarh]

When a random green group becomes the standard defacto group, all of the content will need to be tuned for that group.

why?

 

simple answer don't be a cissy, deal with it like a man

say no to nerf's

Edited February 15, 2012 by navarh

[galadimana]

Probably been said already, but I'll add my voice:

 

Better Things To Do.

[DarthKhaos]

Here's the problem, from a buisness standpoint, this is a terrible attitude to have. If players don't care enough to learn how to use a complicated LFG tool, then they won't use it and then complain/unsub. BW can push that they learn it till their blue in the face but if players still arn't willing, BW will lose money as players leave the game. If BW is just content to say "well they don't care enough to learn so its their own fault," they will lose subs.

The thing is it's not a complicated tool. You click one check box and you're flagged. If you want to add a little more info instead of "Hey I'm LFG" there's a comment box where you type that in. THAT'S IT! If THAT'S too complicated then don't leave the house. The thing is people have a lot of misconceptions about the Tool. Some don't know it even exists. These things are contributing factors in its lack of use. Don't get upset with those of use who are willing to use the tools given to us and not complain about a lack of a "do it for me" button.

[darkcerb]

 

But here (your words) whats your evidence??

 

You don´t even know for a fact if teh majority of players want it , do you?

 

If you're arguing against a cross server tool aren't you making that claim yourself?

 

After all if they didn't the tool wouldn't be used and your way would be safe.

[ferroz]

Why argue against a perfect compromise a cross server tool that has the option of only searching your own server?

The only thing I can think of is that they're terrified by the idea that they aren't able to control how other people play the game.

 

the other discussions that I've had on this subjected boiled down to that: some people think they should be able to control how other people play the game

 

Based on the number of replies to this thread by people who don't understand how the current LFG system works, it might be safe to say that the majority of the playerbase doesn't know how it works, or how to use it.

 

Perhaps a comprehensive guide (available in-game would be excellent) on how to use the current tool would encourage more people to use it..

I suspect that no matter what you do to make a guild for that "tool", it won't matter; WoW's lfg tool (the pre lfd one) was unsuccessful according to blizzard, and it had more functionality; likewise for the one in EQ back when I was still playing. In both cases, spamming in a general population center was more useful. In EQ, since it was un-instanced, you were best going to the zone you wanted and oocing for a group; once they added instances, the best method was doing the same in the jump off points for the instances (ie, the ldon hubs during ldon) Edited February 15, 2012 by ferroz

[Moricthian]

The thing is it's not a complicated tool. You click one check box and you're flagged. If you want to add a little more info instead of "Hey I'm LFG" there's a comment box where you type that in. THAT'S IT! If THAT'S too complicated then don't leave the house. The thing is people have a lot of misconceptions about the Tool. Some don't know it even exists. These things are contributing factors in its lack of use. Don't get upset with those of use who are willing to use the tools given to us and not complain about a lack of a "do it for me" button.

 

Whether or not you think the tool is complicated or not is irrelevant. If nobody is using it, BW can either blame the players and keep it as is or blame themselves and come up with something better. If they choose the former, they will have trouble keeping subs.

[Emeda]

Your argument is contingent on the assumption that the current method of finding groups somehow leads to better group performance. You need to provide evidence as to why a gorup with automated feature will somehow perform at a lower level as a group put together through spamming chat channels.

 

They are lazy.

They had to use an auto group feature instead of actually communicating and this will also show in the flshpoint where no one communicates.

The LFG had the same effect in WoW

Your argument is also assuming BW will nerf content to the weakest of players. You have no idea whether or not this is the case. Even in WOW, blizzard did eventually nerf stuff but it was for reasons that we don't know. To simply assume it was because of an LFG tool while ignoring all the other factors/reasons is irrational.

 

They will nerf content, its just a matter of time. Once the casuals get LFG they will complain its to hard and they cant complete it because people are not trying. Its a system casuals use. They want LFG so they can get a group to see the content (and thats the only reason ) Then now since they have LFG it becomes they cant clear the content because the players using the LFG are abusing it by not helping and the only solution the casuals want is nerfed content so they can complete it.

 

These two assumptions are pivatol to your argument, and if you can't substantiate them with facts and evidence, there's no reason to believe what you say is true.

 

Just did. The only to stop them from nerfing content is to stop them from adding a automatic LFG system otherwise it will lead to nerfed content. Now all the casuals will deny this and say they dont want nerfed content but just want to get a group to do it but its just the stategy they use. They know that once they get a LFG it will not be taken away so they will act like they want to play the game when they dont. If Bioware just did a super nerf to the content without putting in a LFG you would see all the requests for a LFG and that it must be put in the game gone, just because they actually got what they wanted. They just want to hide what they want so they use the LFG as something they must have then use the LFG the one thing they must have as the reason that they must have nerfs.

[GalacticKegger]

Here's the problem, from a buisness standpoint, this is a terrible attitude to have. If players don't care enough to learn how to use a complicated LFG tool, then they won't use it and then complain/unsub. BW can push that they learn it till their blue in the face but if players still arn't willing, BW will lose money as players leave the game. If BW is just content to say "well they don't care enough to learn so its their own fault," they will lose subs.

 

Let's pretend I open a resturant but its complicated to get to. As a result nobody is eating there. Is it a good business model to conclude: "People just arn't taking the time to learn how to get to my resturant, I could change to a better location but its their fault for not learning." This will lead to your buisness failing. BW needs to adapt and change as players voice their opinions. Seeing as only a handful of people use the current system this is evidence that a vast majority of players either don't know about it, don't care about it, or don't want to use it. Whatever reason, BW needs to adapt and change to what the majority of players are doing. If they don't, this game will fall by the wayside.

Understood. That's what maps are for, and the one that leads to the current LFG tool isn't very functional - though the tool itself is. Until they make its accessibility more conspicuous and intuitive, BW has to find a way to get people to use it. Expectations for a WoW clone so players don't have to learn a new interface are unrealistic. SR has already stated in a podcast that a considerably more embellished LFG tool is coming. But they won't dive into that until they are satisfied with other more important things like fixing critical bugs, implementing a more customizable UI and a character transfer system. Some will leave from it not being there right away, but there won't be a mass exodus because of it. Edited February 15, 2012 by GalacticKegger

[Taroen]

Your argument is contingent on the assumption that the current method of finding groups somehow leads to better group performance. You need to provide evidence as to why a gorup with automated feature will somehow perform at a lower level as a group put together through spamming chat channels.

 

Your argument is also assuming BW will nerf content to the weakest of players. You have no idea whether or not this is the case. Even in WOW, blizzard did eventually nerf stuff but it was for reasons that we don't know. To simply assume it was because of an LFG tool while ignoring all the other factors/reasons is irrational.

 

These two assumptions are pivatol to your argument, and if you can't substantiate them with facts and evidence, there's no reason to believe what you say is true.

 

There were no assumptions in my argument. I laid it out pretty cleanly. So let's revisit it.

 

I think you should be able to agree that the player types that I described do, in fact, exist in the game... i.e. people who don't understand how to play their class, griefer/douche players. Any normal PUG put together by a person is far less likely to include these people. A group leader would take one look at a Trooper wearing STR gear and tell him that he needs to wear class-appropriate gear. A guy that wants to act like a jerk all of the time is going to get dropped, and eventually blacklisted by fellow players in general. A leader can take a look at your gear and decide if you've got it up to par for the content, or decide if he wants to take you and carry you to a degree. A random instant-LFD queue system takes all of those decisions out of the players hands, and leaves those groups to be far inferior to even just the standard basic PUG.

 

Blizzard didn't just "eventually" nerf stuff. The line was pretty clear there. When Cata came out, Blizzard made a big show about how heroic instances were going to actually BE heroic, and that they were reintroducing the need for such concepts as crowd control and focus fire. When the LFD crowd hit cap and found out they couldn't faceroll everything like they did in Wrath, the crying on the forums was EPIC. Blizzard nerfed the hell out of them shortly after, all while doing the standard corporate double-talk that they did it for other reasons (which they never elaborated on). If you bought their line, I don't know what to tell you, since you seem to ask for proof for every statement except the ones you want to make, or like to hear.

[darkcerb]

Originally Posted by darkcerb

Why argue against a perfect compromise a cross server tool that has the option of only searching your own server?

 

The only thing I can think of is that they're terrified by the idea that they aren't able to control how other people play the game.

 

the other discussions that I've had on this subjected boiled down to that: some people think they should be able to control how other people play the game

 

So it seems.

 

I was about to post it a third time given that it seems to be conveniently ignored at every turn.

 

And now I'm going to shameless post it a third time >.>

[DarthKhaos]

Whether or not you think the tool is complicated or not is irrelevant. If nobody is using it, BW can either blame the players and keep it as is or blame themselves and come up with something better. If they choose the former, they will have trouble keeping subs.

First YOU brought up the whole how complicated it was. Second I have never in any shape or form said the tool did not need improvements. There are design flaws accross the board when it comes to UI and interfaces in the game. HOWEVER I am saying WHILE BioWare is working on a better LFG Tool or System use what is there. I was stating some of the contributing factors in its lack of use such us quite a bit of people just don't know it exists because it was never touched upon in the starting worlds or any of the tips.

 

Great example. How many people ask in fleet "Is there a mod station in fleet?" because they learnt through the game to use a mod station to add and remove mods. Because the game didn't show them how to do it without the mod station they just never learnt how to until a player told them you could.

 

The LFG tool wasn't touched upon so a lot of people just don't know about it. Us Forum goers have more knowledge and it's sad people here refuse to use it for such nonsense reasons yet complain about how they can't find groups. I have cited personal examples almost on a daily basis of people looking for someone and I see someone in the tool flagged and guess what? They contacted that person after I mentioned it and BOOM they're off to a flashpoint.

 

I spend a little time to inform people about the tool every time I zone to a planet just to get the word out and slowly more people are using it on my server. It's not at the numbers to make a HUGE difference but hopefully it'll get there. WHY do I do this? Not for myself but to assist my server have a better gaming experience. With class projects and exams coming up I don't have much time to play and I still find a little time to spread the word. If I was only thinking bout myself I'd be sitting complaining that I can't get what I want instead of trying to help my server be a better server with people enjoying themselves.