Why go tanking in PVP

[Mumit]

Since you can still taunt in PVP as a DPS, and guard doesn't really reduce damage - just splits it, bypassing your mitigation stats?

 

What makes up for the massive damage disparity? Speaking as a juggernaut, I really only gain 1 cool down for going tank spec over DPS. In addition, a stun and a non-channeled choke which almost both fill the resolve bar.

 

I'm sure I'm missing something.

[Foenixz]

Ball carrier?

[Mumit]

I had considered that, but again, being a juggernaut, I can see other specs doing better than me at that.

 

Wouldn't it be better to have a vengeance specced jugg running the ball for the 20% damage decrease after force charge/intercept, in addition to the +% heal from 4 piece?

 

Even if not, would more than one tank be needed? It'd be the only archetype where only one is needed, and after that is pointless (outside of passes)

 

And, again, that's only one warzone.

[wingsofcover]

I had considered that, but again, being a juggernaut, I can see other specs doing better than me at that.

 

Wouldn't it be better to have a vengeance specced jugg running the ball for the 20% damage decrease after force charge/intercept, in addition to the +% heal from 4 piece?

 

Even if not, would more than one tank be needed? It'd be the only archetype where only one is needed, and after that is pointless (outside of passes)

 

And, again, that's only one warzone.

 

Oddly enough, I've been in some massive tank warzones (7 tank, 1 healer) that were surprisingly enjoyable.

 

I wouldn't want to run a voidstar like that, but in impball or alderaan where killing is secondary to (though it often helps) living, it worked out really well.

[TheWiggleFish]

If you were facing 3 dps and 1 healer, who would you target first? Probably the healer, and then focus down the dps.

 

What if one of those DPS was suddenly a tank, with guard on that healer, effectively giving the healer double HP?

 

It takes a lot of damage to burn through a guarded healer (usually 33k or so health, assuming they have 16-17k health normally), in which time they can heal themselves, and the dps can kill you.

 

If they target the dps, the tank can just move the guard, causing the same problem, and/or the healer can help negate a lot of that damage.

 

Taunts also cause a lot less damage to be taken as well.

 

So, you could target the tank, which IMO may actually be the "best" choice, as without a guard on them tanks technically have less health than the other members of the group with a guard, and without taunts you do the most damage to them.

 

The problem here is that even without guard a good tank will have 18k-22k health, defensive cool-downs, and generally take less damage with armor and defensive talents that reduce damage taken.

 

So, attacking the tank still takes a long time, and the whole time you still have the dps chewing at you, and the healer healing the tank.

 

Tanks also do relatively decent damage, so that with their defensive abilities and larger health pools can usually go 1v1 with most other people if needed.

 

A healer and a tank can hold a door or turret for a painful amount of time, allowing enough time for help to arrive, or other things to be accomplished elsewhere on the battlefield.

[Mumit]

The problem here is that even without guard a good tank will have 18k-22k health, defensive cool-downs, and generally take less damage with armor and defensive talents that reduce damage taken.

Wow, really that much? I've seen people with 19k HP, but not 22k. (This sounds snarky but it isn't meant to, I don't think I've seen a well geared tank in PVP.)

Tanks also do relatively decent damage, so that with their defensive abilities and larger health pools can usually go 1v1 with most other people if needed.

I don't really feel like I do decent damage as a tank. I crit hardly never, my best attack barely cracks 1200. Meanwhile I see DPS criting for 3-4k regularly. Is it the Juggernaut class? I think my gear is pretty decent - not full PVP, but mostly all purples that are level 49+.

 

If you were facing 3 dps and 1 healer, who would you target first? Probably the healer, and then focus down the dps.

 

What if one of those DPS was suddenly a tank, with guard on that healer, effectively giving the healer double HP?

Due to my experiences, I'd rather be on the team with the 3 DPS and 1 healer.. But again, it's very possible I'm missing something. Taunt doesn't seem to last long at all (both at 6 seconds with much longer cool downs) to make up the difference. Guard doesn't mitigate the damage, just splits it.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Mumit

[grandmasterub]

Tanks are ballers.

 

Idk if you care a lot about your damage then tank might not be good for you. We do good damage but don't expect to top the charts. Tanks *** to protection scores

 

And yes my shadow+sawbones(buddy) can hold a cap vs 6 for over a minute in most cases. Thats a silly amount of time.

[TheWiggleFish]

I'm in mostly columi/rakata PVE gear and I have 21.4ish k when i pvp with my own trooper buff and dps relics. If i had battlemasters stuff i'd probably be about the same?

 

I'm not sure what the max would be with full rakata/battlemasters and stims, but im sure its 23-24k, and is probably quite scary, lol.

[Glorionn]

Unfortunately, champ and BM gear have significantly less endurance on them. So you wont see anywhere near 24k hp. I think im 22k in my rakata and 18-19 in my BM/Champ gear. Guardian represent!

 

If you pvp in pve gear, you will be an anchor for your team.

 

Why pvp as a tank? Guard IS that good. You will be in full tank gear, so you will have an extra 2-3k HP compared to DPS gear. You're not looking at damaging the other team as much as you are focusing on staying in range of your guard target, blasting off AoE taunts in the most effective pattern, and single target taunts on their dangerous DPS. Also, you need to convince the other team to not attack you when your taunts are up, so being in the middle of the fray can have a negative impact!

 

It's not about big damage numbers, it's about mitigating as much damage as possible. It can be a thankless job, but it wins matches.

[Aaoogaa]

Since you can still taunt in PVP as a DPS, and guard doesn't really reduce damage - just splits it, bypassing your mitigation stats?

 

Last I checked your defensive stats reduce incoming guard damage.

[Mumit]

Idk if you care a lot about your damage then tank might not be good for you. We do good damage but don't expect to top the charts.

Oh, I know. I just don't feel like the amount I can mitigate warrants the damage I'm giving up though. You don't actually prevent any more damage than you could as a DPS (since taunt is the only thing that actually reduces damage, guard just moves it around outside of the 5% damage reduction)

 

It's not about big damage numbers, it's about mitigating as much damage as possible. It can be a thankless job, but it wins matches.

That's what's getting to me though. Guard isn't actually mitigation. It's just splitting damage between two targets.

 

Last I checked your defensive stats reduce incoming guard damage.

They have no effect on it. They did in Warhammer which used a similar system, but don't here. In fact, your defensive stats don't even reduce damage on you it seems..

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=258502

 

 

Regardless, thank you everyone for the replies. I really wanted to tank but I'm just not sold on it in PVP. I'd rather do 300k damage and protect 50k than do 75k damage/75k protection while dieing faster.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Mumit

[felirx]

Until they fix defences working on really only against assassins, marauders and snipers, the best way to go is dps gear with tank spec. You look at the set bonuses and pick the ones that you like the most, and if they happen to be in pvp tank gear, you swap out the mods for crit/surge/power.

 

This way you retain high migitation, (40%, 46%, 50%+ depending on class), can still guard and provide meaningful dps.

 

Also, as far as warzones go, even in warhammer where you could block the guard damage, it was still the optimal choice to go dps stacked as tank to scenarios. OpenRvR was really the only place where sword and board was a good choice (bar maybe some kotbs/chosen specs).

Edited February 14, 2012 by felirx

[jaakkeli]

Anyone with over 20k is usually wearing a lot of PvE tank gear and using an Endurance stim. The PvP gear just doesn't have that much HP.

 

I'm in mostly columi/rakata PVE gear and I have 21.4ish k when i pvp with my own trooper buff and dps relics. If i had battlemasters stuff i'd probably be about the same?

 

I'm not sure what the max would be with full rakata/battlemasters and stims, but im sure its 23-24k, and is probably quite scary, lol.

 

My Powertech with full Columi + Rakata implants + Datacrons + Rakata stim + BH buff has around 23.5k HP (forgot the exact amount), including the Endurance from talents (which most people would probably skip in PvP unless running tank/pyro hybrid). Champion PvP gear would drop that to under 20k, though I run with much less these days as I stripped off most of the tank mods and put in DPS stuff (due to defense/shield being mostly useless in PvP).

[Draconax]

 

That's what's getting to me though. Guard isn't actually mitigation. It's just splitting damage between two targets.

 

 

And that's just fine. You still prevent people from killing your guard target. If they do 20k dmg to your guard target, you both live at half health, and one of them is dead. Not to mention you have taunts going off further reducing their damage to your guard target. As an assassin, I also get to mitigate the guard damage through self healing. I love being a pvp tank, and I commonly finish games with 10+ medals. I don't need to do 250k+ dmg to feel important.

[JohnyMessaround]

I just don't feel like the amount I can mitigate warrants the damage I'm giving up though.

...

I'd rather do 300k damage and protect 50k than do 75k damage/75k protection while dieing faster.

 

This is the real heart of the issue here, you want to have your cake and eat it too. You can't both DPS and Tank, if you try you will fail every time. If you're more concerned with dealing damage then you DPS, if you'd rather keep yourself and others alive then you Tank. Pretty simple.

[Mumit]

This is the real heart of the issue here, you want to have your cake and eat it too. You can't both DPS and Tank, if you try you will fail every time. If you're more concerned with dealing damage then you DPS, if you'd rather keep yourself and others alive then you Tank. Pretty simple.

 

But that's the thing, as a DPS spec it seems I can have my cake and eat it to.

 

The talents in vengeance provide for better mitigating (20% damage reduction after every force charge/intercept). You can still taunt at the same efficiency as a tank. Thus, you're reducing more damage than a tank from what I've been able to gather. In addition to all of this, you're still a DPS and able to put out great numbers.

 

As a tank, you gain less mitigation in PVP. Yes, you can guard, but again that is not mitigation outside the 5%.

 

If I charge in as Vengeance and taunt, and then someone hits my buddy for 1000, that'd be 700 after the taunt.

 

If I charge in as Immortal while having my friend guarded and taunt someone that is about to hit for 1000, that's 700(0.95) to each of us, which is 332.5 each. Still 665 damage done.

 

Now if I charge in on my vengeance spec and taunt just before someone AoE's my friend:

1000 * (1 - 0.3) = 700 to my buddy

1000 * (1 - 0.3) = 700 (1 - 0.2) = 560 to me.

----

Tol = 1260

 

For immortal:

1000 (1 - 0.3) = 700 (1 - 0.05) = 665/2 = 332.5 to my buddy

1000 (1 - 0.3) = 700 + 332.5 = 1032.5 to me

----

Tol = 1365

 

With only a 20 second cool down on charge/intercept, seems like that it'd mitigate a lot. Add in the +8% heal from 4 piece bonus on DPS gear and it just seems like there isn't a point to being a tank spec in PVP.

 

 

Also, what's to stop a vengeance juggernaut from using soresu form? I'd bet they'd still deal more damage than the Immortal spec, and they'd be able to guard.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Mumit

[grandmasterub]

DPS + taunts will never be as effective as guard at keeping people alive.

 

You aren't really getting both. Yes you might have more medals and a lot of protection numbers. But what really makes a difference is "would that healer have died if he was guarded?" "would that dps have gotten an extra kill if guarded allowing us to cap?" "would we have scored in huttball with guard?"

 

Thats where it matters that you are a tank and not a DPS with taunts.

Guard does give protection cause it reduces inc damage in addition to the transfer. And its way easier to heal 300 on two people than 600 on one...

 

Also try fighting a tank plus healer, then try fighting a dps w/taunts plus healer. You'll notice the difference.

Edited February 14, 2012 by grandmasterub

[Mumit]

Like I pointed out, there's nothing to stop a DPS juggernaut (in my example) from switching to the tanking stance and throwing guard on someone when needed. They'd still be more valuable to the team due to the damage they'd still be able to deal. Also, the mitigation is 5%.

 

I thank everyone for their replies, and my question has been answered. There isn't a reason to go down a tanking tree over the DPS tree in PVP until tank mitigation in PVP is adjusted, taunts/guard are more effective for tanks, or any combination of other solutions. Until then it's better to go DPS spec, keep your defensive stance hotkeyed, and be prepared to use guard in situations that warrant it.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Mumit

[grandmasterub]

Ah yes I keep forgetting some classes can still stance dance

[StealthStalker]

I still think guard damage should be mitigated, either by shielding, avoidance, or both.

[Yun_Gemstone]

Anyone with over 20k is usually wearing a lot of PvE tank gear and using an Endurance stim. The PvP gear just doesn't have that much HP.

 

Its true, but I can still hit 19.6k HP in full Champion tank gear with Endurance buff (as Trooper I always have it on anyway). If I bother to get all the Endurance datacrons (I am lazy, I know) the number will go up to 20k. And with Endurance stim it probably be about 21.4 or something.

 

BM gear won’t add too much extra HP, but I imagine it can be close or bit over 22k. So its doable without PvE gear. Trade off is losing some DPS.

 

 

Like I pointed out, there's nothing to stop a DPS juggernaut (in my example) from switching to the tanking stance and throwing guard on someone when needed. They'd still be more valuable to the team due to the damage they'd still be able to deal. Also, the mitigation is 5%.

 

The mitigation in PvP from Guard is 50 %, mate. Read the tooltip again

Edited February 15, 2012 by Yun_Gemstone

[Mumit]

It's not true mitigation. It's a damage split.

 

It's 5% mitigation / split the remainder between two people. Both players take 47.5% of the damage after factoring in the guarded targets relevant mitigation stats. 50% mitigation would be awesome, though.

 

It might be a matter of definition that I'm tripping people up on. For me, mitigation means damage prevented. When you guard a target, you're only preventing 5% of the damage. 95% of the damage is still done, just split between two people.

 

Guards the target while it remains within 15 meters. While active, the target takes 5% less damage and generates 25% less threat. In addition, 50% of all incoming damage from enemy players is transferred back to you. Requires Soresu Form.

http://www.torhead.com/ability/fkDOyAL/guard

Edited February 15, 2012 by Mumit

[Sresk]

Shadow tank here:

 

Mumit I agree with you and it bothers me that guarded damage that you receive is not mitigated by your own defenses. I've taken to mostly guarding heavy armor wearing dps and healers as when I guard a sage or smuggler I drop like a rock.

 

Having said that The few times I've been fortunate enough to hold a turret or door with a heal specced commando the two of us can hold out and kill 2 v 6 for a stupidly long time

Edited February 15, 2012 by Sresk

[CygnisJunior]

Everyone keeps mentioning how awesome guard and taunt are in pvp, which is true, but they completely forget that dps specs can do those as well. And to top it off, guard damage isn't affected by our mitigation.

 

I'd say the best bet if you wish to "tank" in pvp is to follow something similar to the "Iron Fist" build taugrim has. Wear dps gear, turn on tank stance, obtain all the mitigation/utility talents in the tank tree, and put the rest of your points into a dps tree. You can guard, dish out very good dps, and reduce the damage you take by a fair amount.

[SylentRealm]

I'm a Jugg wearing Champ/BM gear, sitting just over 20K HP. I'm pretty much full Immortal tree. The main reason I'm full tank spec is because of the extra CC abilities/functionality I get. There are a number or talents that let me either decrease movement, dps or overall ability of the people I'm going up against. It's true that most mitigation doesn't work all that well in PVP, but if any of those abilities can keep me up a bit longer then it's worth it.

 

I primarily have a guard up on a healer at all times. I've read all the arguments about how guard isn't making people take less damage across the board... but if it keeps a healer up for at least one more heal, then it's done the job.

 

In SWTOR I've found that there are lots of different specs, both talent and gear, you can run for PVP. Just depends on the role you want to play. Seems the OP wants to worry more about his DPS than how much damage he can take off his team. Which is fine if that's the role you want to play. Myself on the other hand, am happy with only doing 150-200k damage in Voidstar, as long as I'm able to put up 200-250k protection when in my pre-made.