Punish PPL leaving WZ - FAIL idea.

[TheRFC]

 

If you afk after they implement deserter I will report you too. Hopefully you'll get what's coming to you.

 

 

 

So you admit you aren't a decent person. A start, I suppose. But what a pathetic excuse.

 

 

YES! I can't find it ANYWHERE in what I've written but I'm positive I catagorically stated 'Wah wah ... Watch me get my AFK (ON)/OFF!'

 

Have you got a problem w/ English or something?

 

So I've posted a thread saying why implementing a debuff would be a bad idea and suggesting potential consequences and I'm a terrible human being.

Edited February 13, 2012 by Zilrota
Removed inappropriate content.

[TheRFC]

lots of people queue well after thier daily is completed, including myself. I dont' pve so warzones and ilum are really all I play the game for, this goes for the 20+ other people on my friends list your statement is false.

 

 

But it's not necessarily 'false' because your counter is extremely subjective. I could say 'I don't have this experience so YOUR statement is false'.

 

I've hit 60V by now and sometimes I play many matches after my Dailies other times I can't bear it. Depends what mood I'm in considering 60/60 of those Valor Ranks have been purely through WZing. Can be fun, can also grind.

 

Punish me when I'm in the mood to play and it'll start feeling a big effort even to do the Dailies considering that BM gear really isn't worth getting if you've already got full Champ gear or a combo of both Champ and Centurian.

[venjinze]

But it's not necessarily 'false' because your counter is extremely subjective. I could say 'I don't have this experience so YOUR statement is false'.

 

I've hit 60V by now and sometimes I play many matches after my Dailies other times I can't bear it. Depends what mood I'm in considering 60/60 of those Valor Ranks have been purely through WZing. Can be fun, can also grind.

 

Punish me when I'm in the mood to play and it'll start feeling a big effort even to do the Dailies considering that BM gear really isn't worth getting if you've already got full Champ gear or a combo of both Champ and Centurian.

 

you are right, it may not be an objective statement, but it holds true to a vast amount of players on my server. I just associate with a select few who I enjoy playing with, and thats what I used to support said statement.

[TheRFC]

So you admit you aren't a decent person. A start, I suppose. But what a pathetic excuse.

 

 

In answer to this specifically because I didn't see what you were referring to the first time ...

 

I'm sorry but we need to put things in perspective here. We are talking about/ some getting bent out of shape over a COMPUTER GAME. I DON'T quit but I don't think that those who DO are horrible and conceited creatures, either.

 

There are so many kinds of evil in the world and people quitting a game-mode on a computer game is laughable when you see how vitriolic people are getting about it. People need to start being more constructive and put down the pitch-forks and torches.

[Rehneu]

There should be some sort of action taken against those that leave the war zones. Even if it is just a 30-60 minute, in game timed lock out of queuing.

 

Watched someone leave a war zone earlier because he more then likely didn't like the way it was going. His loss really as we won.

[TheRFC]

you are right, it may not be an objective statement, but it holds true to a vast amount of players on my server. I just associate with a select few who I enjoy playing with, and thats what I used to support said statement.

 

 

IMO they should give significantly less Valor for winning/losing/completing a WZ and more for positive/ team-supporting actions IN the game.

 

If people don't get rewarded for merely BEING there but they HAVE to do something otherwise they'd be AFKing for years then that would stop that problem.

 

It would make people participate more if they think 'well we're going to lose ... but I can be rewarded for still helping my team TRY to win or TRY to play for the objective'. When you lose and get your Valor/ WZ Comms cut down by 1/3rd that's why people cba to continue, IMO. When you NEED 3 wins to complete your Daily and it's a definite loss then THAT'S why people quit.

 

 

Reward to PLAY not to STAY.

[DamsonRhee]

you guys cant see the big picture here

the problem isnt that their is no penalty the problem is the players (and to a bigger extent the reason why the players wish to farm WZ)

 

First off if their is a penalty than everyone just goes to a corner and afks and you still have the same problem maybe even a worse of a problem cause now you are just short people with no hope of someone else coming on. (they will go afkish because they want the match to end quicker) and sometimes i feel like that too (most of the time its voidstar)

 

but why people play and leave when it goes south is because of the reward for a win (the daily and the lack of need of valor past 60) and lets face it with the introduction of Ilum v2.11118 valor has almost no use to the majority of people. the ones that farm it are doing it for recognition only and they definitely dont farm it in WZ when Ilum is there. Especiallyif you are in the outnumbering faction .

[TheRFC]

There should be some sort of action taken against those that leave the war zones. Even if it is just a 30-60 minute, in game timed lock out of queuing.

 

Watched someone leave a war zone earlier because he more then likely didn't like the way it was going. His loss really as we won.

 

 

Are you mental?

 

30-60mins debuff?! Please re-read what I've written and not just the title.

 

Today I got stuck in spawn 3 times and then kicked because the GAME wouldn't let me out of spawn. You're suggesting I'd have to have between an 30-60minutes twiddling my thumbs? (I'm not even going to suggest 1 1/2 - 3 hours because the FIRST time that happened the game would be getting uninstalled).

 

They can't even fix the issue of WZs counting, you really think I want them to try adding some kind of punitive system??

 

You've just taken a bad idea (of 15 minute debuff) and BUFFED it up! This game is SO glitchy.

 

What am I meant to do after that happens? Sit at my computer for 30mins-1hour clicking a mouse button everytime it goes to log me out due to inactivity?

 

Please, please, L2Read.

[TheRFC]

you guys cant see the big picture here

the problem isnt that their is no penalty the problem is the players (and to a bigger extent the reason why the players wish to farm WZ)

 

First off if their is a penalty than everyone just goes to a corner and afks and you still have the same problem maybe even a worse of a problem cause now you are just short people with no hope of someone else coming on. (they will go afkish because they want the match to end quicker) and sometimes i feel like that too (most of the time its voidstar)

 

but why people play and leave when it goes south is because of the reward for a win (the daily and the lack of need of valor past 60) and lets face it with the introduction of Ilum v2.11118 valor has almost no use to the majority of people. the ones that farm it are doing it for recognition only and they definitely dont farm it in WZ when Ilum is there. Especiallyif you are in the outnumbering faction .

 

 

I'm glad to see someone has actually thought about the issue before just writing whatever BS first comes to mind.

[EternalFinality]

In answer to this specifically because I didn't see what you were referring to the first time ...

 

I'm sorry but we need to put things in perspective here. We are talking about/ some getting bent out of shape over a COMPUTER GAME. I DON'T quit but I don't think that those who DO are horrible and conceited creatures, either.

 

There are so many kinds of evil in the world and people quitting a game-mode on a computer game is laughable when you see how vitriolic people are getting about it. People need to start being more constructive and put down the pitch-forks and torches.

 

That you think it's ok to do whatever you want just because "it's a game" is exactly why you aren't a decent person.

 

You...didn't know?

Edited February 13, 2012 by EternalFinality

[Kelticfury]

I quit paying attention when you started quoting mythology in giant red text.

[MPagano]

OP, I appreciate your attempt at approaching this embattled subject. However, I don't see any points in here that address the issue which has fomented such outcry for deserter debuff.

 

The warzone experience has so deteriorated that, on many servers, there's no comeback scenario anymore. There's no situation where you give up the first 1 (or 2) huttball points only to knuckledown and turn the tides. For me, and many players, this type of momentum shift is a hallmark of exciting pvp.

 

When players are allowed to "fast forward" or "skip" to the next warzone by leaving one and joining another, you breed a demographic who see nothing wrong with quitting until they stick in a winning one. I've actually seen a play drop out of my huttball team and join on the other team shortly thereafter (this is obviously not in control by the player, but he effectively switched to the winning team).

 

I ask you, is this sort of pvp culture acceptable? Is this a community behavior that, if allowed to continue, will be able to provide any sort of sustainable and competitive environment? I don't think you could reasonably answer "yes".

 

Is this debuff the best solution? Probably not. Is it tried and true? Yes. Since WoW first incorporated this idea (and it's worth noting that it was in response to the exact same phenomenon), many games have copied the idea successfully.

 

This is a pretty urgent issue. Each week that passes only breeds more of this behavior as players take the "why not me" attitude without considering the bigger picture or greater good. If we agree that we want a meaningful and consistent pvp and WZ experience, I don't see how you can deny the importance of this type of mechanic.

 

Thoughts?

[TheRFC]

That you think it's ok to do whatever you want just because "it's a game" is exactly why you aren't a decent person.

 

You...didn't know?

 

 

I really hope you're purposely trolling me ... no one can seriously be this thick.

 

Again, when did I say 'do what you want, it's only a game!'

 

Firstly, if we're being perfectly honest, it IS only a game and you're basing a person's morality on whether they stay in a SWTOR WZ. So everyone who stays in are necessarily a 'decent person' then? I'd have fun with you arguing semantics but it really doesn't feel fulfilling if you actually do have the intellectual equivalency of a kashu nut, as is suggested by your posts so far.

 

My point WAS that if you start punishing people for leaving, they won't leave. They'll just stay and AFK ---> instead of them leaving and someone else who may want to play coming in you'll just be stuck with 2-3 or maybe more AFKers.

 

If they really want to go, LET THEM GO! This isn't Auschwitz!

 

Your suggestion? Report them. On Alderaan and VS there are so many ways that you can get around even being noticed for AFKing. Huttball is easier because most parts of the map are in use so you spot most AFKers at the sides just outside the spawn else they'll get dragged into the action. In VS - just don't move along with the action when a door gets taken. Who'd be keeping tabs? Alderaan? There are PLENTY of places. Am I meant to be fighting people AND scouring the map to make sure no-one is AFKing?

 

Engage brain, THEN type.

[ViperI]

People who want to punish others for leaving early are doing it out of spite and only looking for revenge. They want to inflict damage onto those whom they feel have slighted them. They're not considering how it would affect the game overall. I'll tell you one thing, though, these same people wanting deserter penalties will cry a river when it happens to them after a random disconnect or when they're trying to group with friends and they accidentally forgot to uncheck the "Requeue warzone" button. Then they'll come out with all the exceptions that need to be coded into the system and complicated hypothetical scenarios for when the penalty is applicable and when it isn't. In the end, a deserter penalty adds nothing to the game, it solves nothing (people will still leave early) and it adds a lot of extra work/code to the game.

 

All that said, a better solution is already in place. When someone leaves, the matchmaking system continues to add people to the match to fill empty slots. As long as one side is outnumbered, the game works to even up both sides.

[TheRFC]

I quit paying attention when you started quoting mythology in giant red text.

 

 

'EVERYONE! I'm an ATHIEST and need everyone to KNOW that I've read a HITCHENS book!'

 

True-story?

 

IMO, Bertrand Russel puts forward far better arguments. Or maybe even check out Thomas Paines 'Age of Reason' so yuz can pwetend to be all cultured and stuff

 

 

Yours,

 

- An athiest who doesn't need to shout about it at every opportunity

[Erasimus]

I read the OPs arguments and don't agree. I do believe there should be a penalty for "deserting" 30 minutes should be sufficient that is about the equivalent of 2 WZs.

 

Yes it would seem unfair to those few that get DC'd or have to log out then back into the game. To my mind this is far less onerous than having to put up with the increasing number of people that immediately leave as soon as they perceive a momentum swing.

 

Heck I see people leaving Voidstar as soon as a single door is down if it is round one. When that happens it definitely increases the probability of losing.

 

There are a few measures that I think should be taken in addition to the deserter debuff (and yes they come from WoW, not everything the comes from that source is bad).

 

1. AFK - reporting. If you are reported AFK and don't do any healing/damage/movement you are booted and given a deserter debuff and no credit for the WZ.

 

2. DC's/Relogs - If you DC have a say 1 or 2 minute window where if you reconnect you are placed back into the WZ.

 

Not perfect solutions, but a bit better than some of the losing WZs I've stayed in where there are 20-25 people on the final screen because people started leaving at the first sign they may not be on the winning side.

[ViperI]

There's no situation where you give up the first 1 (or 2) huttball points only to knuckledown and turn the tides. For me, and many players, this type of momentum shift is a hallmark of exciting pvp.

 

That's not true. I'll share my own experiences. I was in a match with some guildmates and we were down 4-2 with 1 minute remaining in huttball. I scored with just under a minute, and our team was already setup in position to fastrack pass another score as soon as it respawned. I died after my first score, ran back to the center and grabbed the ball with 10 seconds remaining in the game. We won a 4-4 tiebreak because we controlled the middle and I was able to hold the ball at the end.

[Kelticfury]

'EVERYONE! I'm an ATHIEST and need everyone to KNOW that I've read a HITCHENS book!'

 

True-story?

 

IMO, Bertrand Russel puts forward far better arguments. Or maybe even check out Thomas Paines 'Age of Reason' so yuz can pwetend to be all cultured and stuff

 

 

Yours,

 

- An athiest who doesn't need to shout about it at every opportunity

 

Never read any of those. I am a fan of Richard Dawkins though.

 

And for someone not shouting about it at every opportunity, you sure did jump all over this opportunity to shout about your atheism as well as trying to prove your superiority by making wild assumptions.

 

GG

[TheRFC]

OP, I appreciate your attempt at approaching this embattled subject. However, I don't see any points in here that address the issue which has fomented such outcry for deserter debuff.

 

The warzone experience has so deteriorated that, on many servers, there's no comeback scenario anymore. There's no situation where you give up the first 1 (or 2) huttball points only to knuckledown and turn the tides. For me, and many players, this type of momentum shift is a hallmark of exciting pvp.

 

When players are allowed to "fast forward" or "skip" to the next warzone by leaving one and joining another, you breed a demographic who see nothing wrong with quitting until they stick in a winning one. I've actually seen a play drop out of my huttball team and join on the other team shortly thereafter (this is obviously not in control by the player, but he effectively switched to the winning team).

 

I ask you, is this sort of pvp culture acceptable? Is this a community behavior that, if allowed to continue, will be able to provide any sort of sustainable and competitive environment? I don't think you could reasonably answer "yes".

 

Is this debuff the best solution? Probably not. Is it tried and true? Yes. Since WoW first incorporated this idea (and it's worth noting that it was in response to the exact same phenomenon), many games have copied the idea successfully.

 

This is a pretty urgent issue. Each week that passes only breeds more of this behavior as players take the "why not me" attitude without considering the bigger picture or greater good. If we agree that we want a meaningful and consistent pvp and WZ experience, I don't see how you can deny the importance of this type of mechanic.

 

Thoughts?

 

 

BOOM. I feel like you're a mirage!

 

Someone who can read what I've put, disagree but constructively criticise! I'm getting trolololled aren't I?

 

In all seriousness, though ...

 

You do raise a good point. I have ideas that will better the PvP experience in general for WZs w/o a punishment AT ALL. I didn't want to put it in the opening thread because people see a lot of writing and pass over it, also I didn't want to reply in a comment to someone because people wouldn't find it.

 

Overall the mantra is 'Reward to PLAY not to STAY'.

 

I'll be doing a thread on suggestions soon

 

Ty for the comment.

[TheRFC]

Never read any of those. I am a fan of Richard Dawkins though.

 

And for someone not shouting about it at every opportunity, you sure did jump all over this opportunity to shout about your atheism as well as trying to prove your superiority by making wild assumptions.

 

GG

 

 

Everybody's read Richard Dawkins, the Pope has probably read his stuff by now.

 

Instead of a 'LOL @ the mythology - BUT, here's what I think on your points (agree/disagree)' you just have a psuedo-elitist dig and contributed nothing. Thanks for stopping by.

 

Kiz kiz,

 

x

[skyflash]

Wee a new thread! Ok, this is what I wrote in the last thread about the same topic:

-----------------------

 

Guys, currently some people are leaving, and it feels really bad for the people that get stomped because of it. But you need to realize, that THIS currently is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

There aren't that many people full T2 and gearing up with T3 yet, and those are the players that currently ruin PvP for you. There aren't even full T3s yet, at least not many. And those people will, on average, be MUCH WORSE in the leaving department.

 

Overall, in the coming weeks and month the situation will rapidly decrease to a huge BG jumping, PvP ruining fragfest. You have seen nothing yet, just imagine what will happen when people with NO INCENTIVE TO PLAY AT ALL are in the queue playing with Randoms.

 

It will be MUCH WORSE in a few weeks. Much much worse.

 

- No one that wants to give rewards as an incentive has stated how to motivate the full T3 players to stay in a game as you cannot reward them anymore.

 

- No one that wants to give rewards has stated how to overcome the current, HUGE reward given for leaving a BG to T2 players that gear up with T3 by completing Dailys and Weeklys. That reward is PLAYTIME and is a very limited resource for many players. It is very hard to overcome.

 

If there is no type of deserter buff or sticky BGs in a few month when most PvPers reach BM and a large part reaches full T3, PvP in this game will die. Period.

 

Bioware needs to do something NOW before it gets out of hand:

 

- Remove the AFK mechanism in safe zones

- Fix the D/C bugs

- Fix matchmaking

- Separate Premades from Random BG

- Fix equipment > skill

- Fix choosing a BG

- Make BGs stick to the player so he rejoins his BG on reconnect

- Implement deserter debuff if players are gone at the end of a BG

- Implement AFK detection mechanisms that actually work

- Implement AFK voting

- Implement progressive AFK penalties

 

And then, after leaving is fixed, you can:

 

- Add medals for team oriented actions and fix healer medals

- Add more team oriented daily and weekly quests

- Lower the reward for the win daily and weekly quests

- Add rewards for medals that interest T3 players (expensive mounts, Titles, Social Gear)

 

This, for me, is the way forward for SWTOR BG PvP. Similar stuff has to be done for Ilum and Tatooine of course. And I believe if they dont do a huge portion of this, PvP in SWTOR will die soon, but thats just me, and I could be wrong.

[KaL_InvictuS]

I'm all for punishing deserters. However, us with not so high-end-PCs have in more than one occasion been trapped in the spawn zone when entering a Warzone match that has already started due to the WZ taking a long time to load, and thus got insta-kicked before we could actually enter the game. Punishing us as "deserters" for such occasions is completely unfair.

 

My suggestion would be to:

 

A) either prolong the time someone can stay in the spawn zone when entering in mid-game, so that we can actually manage to join in even if it takes a few moments more for the WZ to load,

 

or B) at least add a notification on the "JOIN WARZONE" pop-up saying that the Warzone you're about to enter has already started 5-6 mins ago when that's the case. That way, we can opt not to join and thus avoid getting trapped and insta-kicked.

 

 

Just my 2 cens.

 

I also fully support the idea for individual objective rewards mentioned above. Scoring in Hutball = Valor, defending a node in Alderaan = Valor, etc. The fact that actually trying to win a WZ nets no rewards whatsoever (other than one or two medals) should be looked into.

[MPagano]

That's not true. I'll share my own experiences. I was in a match with some guildmates and we were down 4-2 with 1 minute remaining in huttball. I scored with just under a minute, and our team was already setup in position to fastrack pass another score as soon as it respawned. I died after my first score, ran back to the center and grabbed the ball with 10 seconds remaining in the game. We won a 4-4 tiebreak because we controlled the middle and I was able to hold the ball at the end.

 

This is great. However, you can't be trying to say that this is the norm. Many, many warzones find the losing team quitting soon after the first few nodes/points/etc. If people have and abuse the option, it needs to be reviewed and amended. Period.

 

And to your earlier post, those of us who support a deserter buff are not necessarily spiteful. I know I'm not. I've left a number of warzones because I can requeue shortly after. Try not to reduce a point of opposition down to some rabid and emotional hissy fit.

 

The points I make are lucid, objective, and focus on the big picture and ultimately the benefit of the game experience for the most players. You've offered a single annecdote contrary to my general case and made a gross generalizaton about anyone who thinks differently from you. Kudos.

[TheRFC]

1. AFK - reporting. If you are reported AFK and don't do any healing/damage/movement you are booted and given a deserter debuff and no credit for the WZ.

 

2. DC's/Relogs - If you DC have a say 1 or 2 minute window where if you reconnect you are placed back into the WZ.

 

Thanks for the comment.

 

1 - My concerns w/ this would be that I've reported 2 particular AFKers on my server more than I care to remember and they're still there so have given up. I know countless people who report them. Nothing happens.

 

IMO, you should have little reward for a Win versus a Loss. You SHOULD be rewarded for playing the objective, though. Else I could win but have sat around doing nothing and get full rewards or I could bust a gut trying to win but lose and miss out.

 

I'll be putting up a thread on suggestions later.

 

 

2. This may suggest that the particular match 'holds on' for me to return so they're down a player for that amount of time. I'm not sure how the match-making would work but I'd prefer BW didn't try anything other than simple things because they even get mostly those wrong.

[Enduretwentytwo]

TOR isn't like other 'wow clones', though. Because of the SWs label it'll attract many casual players who aren't usually attracted by MMOs. Punish them, the game effectively dies when they pull their subs.

 

If we were dealing w/ a 'normal' MMO then yeah, why not? People know what to expect. But 'geek' is the new 'cool' for many ... but dungeons/ dragons is still very much on the extreme of the spectrum for many 'gamers'.

 

Anything with a brand-name like SW has to be handled with 'kid-gloves' effectively.

 

I can only play causally. I manage to play 5 games yesterday, won 1, lost 2 and had 2 go to forfeits due to people leaving Warzones. Those 2 I would have won and then I could of completed my 3 WZ win daily. But because idiots like you, who have no disadvantage for instantly leaving a warzone at the first sight of trouble, it's going to take me another day to finish it. How is that beneficial to casuals like me? How is it beneficial to even creating competitive PVP?