Traugar Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 (edited) TOR isn't like other 'wow clones', though. Because of the SWs label it'll attract many casual players who aren't usually attracted by MMOs. Punish them, the game effectively dies when they pull their subs. If we were dealing w/ a 'normal' MMO then yeah, why not? People know what to expect. But 'geek' is the new 'cool' for many ... but dungeons/ dragons is still very much on the extreme of the spectrum for many 'gamers'. Anything with a brand-name like SW has to be handled with 'kid-gloves' effectively. And WoW was the first game to attract casuals who wouldn't be normally be attracted to MMO's. Its kind of how they came to dominate the market. Judging from WoW I would say that punishing those who desert doesn't hurt the game in the slightest. I would say that it helps. Your normal casual isn't going to rage quit every time they are losing. The hardcore guy is the type that does that after he makes sure to inform the whole warzone of how fail they are, how much they suck, and how awesome he is. The casual just wants to hop in and have some fun in a warzone. There are two big ways the hardcores detract from that experience. Not helping the casual guy understand what to do, and going on a nerdrage on everyone before rage quitting. Give those guys some punishment for leaving, and they might try to help the new guys/casuals out. They might end up seeing that you can come back and win sometimes. Edited February 13, 2012 by Traugar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRFC Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 15 min debuff is about spot on. its about the length of one warzone - so if you bail, you lose one warzone's worth of time. Its not a punishment, it is a soft-deterrent. If RL happens, people are OK with losing 15 minutes of pvp time. It ensures that you dont have people who repeatedly grief other players by queuing and then leaving immediately. For people who arent actively 'gaming' the system, it presents no negative connotations. But I've got a better idea that doesn't punish people via glitches and may encourage EVERYONE to get better and be more objectively minded when playing - it also doesn't punish but doesn't reward people either for leaving but rewards them to PLAY not just to STAY. I'll set up a new thread in a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 A voting system could be abused, though. Instead, make the players 'work' to gain a reward and incentivise them to do certain team-orientated actions. Yes it most certainly can be abused, but if you need 5 votes to report an AFKer then that means premades can not AFK vote anyone, so we dont have much of a problem. As with leaver debuffs, eventually you WILL have someone as collateral damage, but that has to be accepted for the greater good. I myself will happily accept a wrong 30 minute debuff every day if that means the other 10 games are without leavers and afkers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 My Premades are going to abuse the ever living **** out of this. Oh look, me and my 6 friends "magically" got into the same match because we queued at the same time. WHAT A COINCIDENCE. Hey guys...LOL I got a great idea. Lets AFK votekick this random so he can't re-queue for 30 minutes....HAHAHAH. Its not possible, with cross server BGs the chance of ending up in the same BG with more than 4 people is like winning the lottery. You will need the vote of one of the other players to kick someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRFC Posted February 13, 2012 Author Share Posted February 13, 2012 And WoW was the first game to attract casuals who wouldn't be normally be attracted to MMO's. Its kind of how they came to dominate the market. Judging from WoW I would say that punishing those who desert doesn't hurt the game in the slightest. I would say that it helps. Your normal casual isn't going to rage quit every time they are losing. The hardcore guy is the type that does that after he makes sure to inform the whole warzone of how fail they are, how much they suck, and how awesome he is. The casual just wants to hop in and have some fun in a warzone. There are two big ways the hardcores detract from that experience. Not helping the casual guy understand what to do, and going on a nerdrage on everyone before rage quitting. Give those guys some punishment for leaving, and they might try to help the new guys/casuals out. They might end up seeing that you can come back and win sometimes. Unfortunately, soon everyone will be a 'hardcore' from the point of view that they'll have nothing left to do apart from farm Valor from WZs and do their Dailies w/ are Win dependent. I've got solutions that don't need punishment but just don't reward people for quitting, and don't reward people for just AFKing or messing around by staying to avoid a debuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 But I've got a better idea that doesn't punish people via glitches and may encourage EVERYONE to get better and be more objectively minded when playing - it also doesn't punish but doesn't reward people either for leaving but rewards them to PLAY not just to STAY. I'll set up a new thread in a bit. Dont bother.. its not possible to reward players for objectives, because they will abuse the living hell out of it. You can ADDITIONALLY reward them for objectives, but the full T3ers will not care, they dont need your rewards. They leave anyway. If the daily quest does not require a win, nobody will ever try to win, they will just try to personally complete the objectives and screw everyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRFC Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Yes it most certainly can be abused, but if you need 5 votes to report an AFKer then that means premades can not AFK vote anyone, so we dont have much of a problem. As with leaver debuffs, eventually you WILL have someone as collateral damage, but that has to be accepted for the greater good. I myself will happily accept a wrong 30 minute debuff every day if that means the other 10 games are without leavers and afkers. But suppose I role with a premade and we all vote to kick someone for fun. Other people can just jump on the bang-wagon and vote too, assuming the player opted for a kick is AFKing, or they can ask in the chat 'why is he being voted for'? 'He's AFKing' ... 'Oh, OK! I'll vote too then!' Most wouldn't bother checking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 But suppose I role with a premade and we all vote to kick someone for fun. Other people can just jump on the bang-wagon and vote too, assuming the player opted for a kick is AFKing, or they can ask in the chat 'why is he being voted for'? 'He's AFKing' ... 'Oh, OK! I'll vote too then!' Most wouldn't bother checking. That may happen in like 1 of 10000 cases. Fine with me. Why should the premade do that, repeatedly, it will lose the game with one person gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enduretwentytwo Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 But I've got a better idea that doesn't punish people via glitches and may encourage EVERYONE to get better and be more objectively minded when playing - it also doesn't punish but doesn't reward people either for leaving but rewards them to PLAY not just to STAY. I'll set up a new thread in a bit. How are people getting punished via glitches? If you click "leave warzone" you get a 15 minute debuff. If you disconnect or get a glitch you get thrown out of the warzone with no debuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Here for your reward system for objectives: My system rewards people for doing things relevant to the Warzone they are in. Instead of Wins or losses to complete the daily or weekly you have a large number of actions which are count toward your daily. Actions such as planting the bomb in Voidstar. Such as preventing the enemy from capping a Turret in Alderaan. Such as passing the ball to someone in Huttball who then proceeds to score. Why would anyone care about actually WINNING after that change? You change it to this.... PvP will die. People will try to plant bombs and cap turrets. All of them. At once. No one will defend the guys doing it. People will pass the ball. But only to the guy that actually scores. People will defend turrets... but only AFTER they have been captured... no one will wait and actually DEFEND one, waiting for an enemy to appear. While you guys are doing whatever, I will wait in the middle of huttball for the ball to appear so I can pass it. PvP will die. Nuff said. No incentive for winning -> Nobody will try to win. It will be a huge objective trading party. You will never cap anything btw, nor get any ball.. cause I got Force Speed. Good luck with your healers BTW, I am sure they love your idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyflash Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 How are people getting punished via glitches? If you click "leave warzone" you get a 15 minute debuff. If you disconnect or get a glitch you get thrown out of the warzone with no debuff. No you arent. If you disconnect, you have to return to your BG before it ends, otherwise you get a debuff. Disconnecting, crashing, glitching, pulling out your cable and ALT+F4 will all lead to a debuff if you do not rejoin the BG before it ends. Why? Cause you canot distinguish netween them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enduretwentytwo Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) No you arent. If you disconnect, you have to return to your BG before it ends, otherwise you get a debuff. Disconnecting, crashing, glitching, pulling out your cable and ALT+F4 will all lead to a debuff if you do not rejoin the BG before it ends. Why? Cause you canot distinguish netween them. Not disagreeing, I like your idea better, I'm just tired of people making the argument that it will punish the small minority of players who have an unfortunate DC, when it is easy to target the players who are choosing to leave battlegrounds solely to avoid the 15 min loss. EDIT: On further consideration, your solution would have to overcome the problem of losing a player permanently from a Warzone. In a 10 v 10 WZ a single person can be a huge driving force and losing someone to a DC and never being able to replace them would be very detrimental to a team. Edited February 14, 2012 by Enduretwentytwo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRFC Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 How are people getting punished via glitches? If you click "leave warzone" you get a 15 minute debuff. If you disconnect or get a glitch you get thrown out of the warzone with no debuff. You REALLY want to trust that kind of thing to BW? They can't even fix WZ wins not counting ... And like someone else said, it's easy to 'trick' the system into thinking you got booted. Alt + F4 = ALL powerful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRFC Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Not disagreeing, I like your idea better, I'm just tired of people making the argument that it will punish the small minority of players who have an unfortunate DC, when it is easy to target the players who are choosing to leave battlegrounds solely to avoid the 15 min loss. There's a much easier solution. I'm writing the thread about it now, it'll be called 'Reward PLAY not to STAY' if you're interested when it's finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gryphandor Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Until there is no hacks and cheats I will continue to leave when I think something fishy is going on. Like going against a team of 10 or 11 for example. I mean it is easy to do and even easier to hide if Alderran. Ever wonder why the enemy goes for both the west and east turret now? They can hide a float group under the middle to pounce as needed. It is pethetic really to think some people have to sink so low just to get a win. Oh and this is not the case every time. The speed hack can also be used to move from east to west rather fast. Again a hack I have seen used by the Imps on my realm. What needs to happen is in the event of the match being called due to lack of players or the group just leaving due to the cheating. A win should not be awarded to the other team. Give them EXP, Credits, and points but not a win. If they know that cheating could cost them a victory because the other team will leave. Maybe it will slow down. Ya I am dreaming. They will just find a way to be more secret about it. PVP is simply no fun when not under normal conditions. Hacks ruin it for everyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enduretwentytwo Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 You REALLY want to trust that kind of thing to BW? They can't even fix WZ wins not counting ... And like someone else said, it's easy to 'trick' the system into thinking you got booted. Alt + F4 = ALL powerful. You and I pay $15 a month in our trust in the Devs to properly fix PVP. If you didn't think the Dev's could fix PVP you would of left and you wouldn't be posting on these forums (unless your a troll ). As for the All powerful Alt + F4, so what. It takes about 5 mins. to completely boot up the game client and get into the world (negating queues). Quitters get a 5 min. debuff timer, whatever I don't really care about how they exploit the system. What I do care about is that currently they aren't exploiting any system. Bioware's designers give people the privilege to leave a game when ever they choose to, without any consequence what so ever. The system promotes quitting, and destroys PVP. If they put in a 15 min debuff, I don't care if you can find exploits around it, I care that they care enough to try and stop behavior that will destroy PVP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poizun Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I'm out in an instant if they ever implement a penalty as drastic as 15 minutes. Not everyone who plays this game is some kid who doesn't have a job or goes out with friends and just sits and plays games all day. I have real life responsibilities like a wife, school and a job. Getting 3 WZ wins a day is a retarded time sink and if I had to sit in every WZ where huttball idiots farm kills while they go all 6 points on us I would cancel in a second. Bioware needs to be aware who pays the bills and it's not the peeps who play 5 hours a day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Traugar Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 (edited) I'm out in an instant if they ever implement a penalty as drastic as 15 minutes. Not everyone who plays this game is some kid who doesn't have a job or goes out with friends and just sits and plays games all day. I have real life responsibilities like a wife, school and a job. Getting 3 WZ wins a day is a retarded time sink and if I had to sit in every WZ where huttball idiots farm kills while they go all 6 points on us I would cancel in a second. Bioware needs to be aware who pays the bills and it's not the peeps who play 5 hours a day. I'm sure they are aware that the majority of those who pay the bills are those who have their entertainment value negatively impacted by the actions of a few. Most players don't desert when things are down. When someone does desert it does negatively effect the majority of the players in the warzone. Edited February 14, 2012 by Traugar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRFC Posted February 14, 2012 Author Share Posted February 14, 2012 Guys! Suggestions have just been posted in a new thread called 'Reward to PLAY, not to STAY'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drudenfusz Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I think a deserter debuff would currently make me stop playing WZs, because if I get a WZ that has already started it is likely that I got automatically kicked, because the 30 seconds timer starts while my loading-screen is still there (Hope BioWare will fix that issue one day, but it seems not to affect many, so it might not be high on the priority lists). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scrilian Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Punish for leaving is a must! You ruin the game for others >_< Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nyxxos Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 You're list is a ridiculous excuse for leaving pvp matches. If you d/c or glitch out of a game, that is one thing but to go on about not wasting your time in a 5-0 loss at huttball is pure qq'ing. Play as a team and enjoy the match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pallais Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 No. Deserter debuff worked perfectly in all other wow clones. People only understand threats. No, a deserter debuff doesn't not stop people from dropping out of a pvp match. People do it all the time, even in Wow. They just go do something else while the debuff ticks off. You're far better off given them a reason to stay through a losing match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hardin_Steele Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 A deserter debuff is a good way to handle it. A 15-30 minute "no WZ timeout" is fine. I'm good with it. It is a decent compromise. All your inputs are valid. Still, those still in the WZ you left, intentional or not, get the shaft when you leave/time out/abandon.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gluefoot Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 TOR isn't like other 'wow clones', though. Because of the SWs label it'll attract many casual players who aren't usually attracted by MMOs. Punish them, the game effectively dies when they pull their subs. If we were dealing w/ a 'normal' MMO then yeah, why not? People know what to expect. But 'geek' is the new 'cool' for many ... but dungeons/ dragons is still very much on the extreme of the spectrum for many 'gamers'. Anything with a brand-name like SW has to be handled with 'kid-gloves' effectively. I hate to say this truth, but SWTOR is for all intents and purposes a WoW clone. WoW attracts casuals, such as myself What's so hard to understand about a deserter penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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