MMO Vets, What do you think?

[Stopakilla]

Was coming up on my renewal in 2 days, I unsubbed this game is just not fun....

[Calibre]

My Jedi Knight is 50 now and I am faced with Dailies over and over and over again.

 

TANGENT: recently rolled a SI and SW. Found the SI boring (story and missions) and find the dialogue choices for SW...well, let's just say....as if they were written by an ignorant teenage, clueless sociopath. That's how bad the SW story is coming across to me.

 

I'm honestly struggling to see how I can keep this sub until TSW.

 

Ca

[Faythz]

My thoughts are in the link in my sig (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=216855). To that post, add this:

 

- No day/night cycle

- No swimming

- No housing

- No Pazaak, Sabacc, Dejarik, races, casino, etc...

- Dumbed down character creation

- No post-creation character customization

- No appearance tab/outfit system

- No high res textures

- No environmental interaction (chairs, walls, doors, etc...)

- Simple combat with static enemies

- Unconvincing and stiff animations

- Empty dead worlds with not enough NPCs moving around

- No collision detection

- No stats on resources

- No crafting customization

- Restriction in choice of starship

- No ship decoration

- Dumbed down space combat

- No multiplayer space combat

- Removal of many races

- No faction change/neutrality

- Restriction and instanced planets by faction

- Less planets than announced

- Planets rated by levels with no reason to go back

- No GM events

- Removal of choice to kill companion

- Removal of possibility to talk to other faction at all times

- No RP tools

- Nothing to do post-story

- Endgame consisting on waiting in fleet

 

This pretty much sums up what I think SWTOR lacks currently.

I have played several MMO's in my life, and in its current state SWTOR really doesn't bring anything "new". But SWTOR do have some elements of MMO's which I do find good.

[Akabeth]

Unfortunately aside from bugs and performance issues, my gripes with this game are design choices like the CC/Resolve system, Fleet being too dominant of an end-game hub, and PvP in general. So yeah...

 

And also @ Dreossk: Nice list.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Akabeth

[Kinediks]

I feel like this game should be 10x better than what i'm playing now. There really is nothing new and exciting about this game, except for voice acting. I laughed at people who called this game a WoW clone. It took a while for me to see it, but I feel like i'm playing the same damn boring game that is WoW.

[RudeDog]

PvP'ers make up a good portion of the playerbase, why cant they make us happy?

 

Not sure this is accurate. I have read that the majority of players are PVE. Could be wrong though...

[Drack]

I played MMOs actively since UO open beta. I tried a shítfull of mmos and seen features come and go. Developers lying, hyping, you name it. I would call myself a Vet.

 

What most games are missing now a days is that the these game are to easy for the vets. Most MMO vets knows just by looking at the characters spell lists what till be good and what will not. They just fall into the role of kiting or healing or whatever. That makes the game to easy, basically. Companies cater to the people who will make them the money, the masses, the casuals. They pay as much as the vets and the hardcores, and they will take alot longer to level up, therefor everything will have improved when they get up there. That makes them the golden goose, and thats why MMOs can survive for a long time on just casuals like that. They have a business plan that if the game sells this many copies, and runs for this long... Volla, money in the back and from there its all gravy.

 

You can run games like that, sure. You can add elements that will keeps most hardcore players on they're best behavior, and play the game for a while. You create content that is shifting, and can be rewarding, and supply itself, and there is PvP. PvP is special that its different everytime you do it, there is people who are good people that are bad and so on. This does not happen by itself tho, the company has to create the frame for PvP, and make it strong and fun and durable. Thing is, people dont mind playing the same Ilum over and over if there is features there that makes it fun. Bioware has totally failed in that department, unfortunetly.

 

The other features you can make is social, and timesinks. Minigames, dancing, music, painting, decorating, house shopping, mount gathering etc. BW has totally failed there as well unfortunetly.

 

So right now you have a game that will suck you in ever so badly. It will rock your world from 1-50 and the week after that. Then the fun starts to degrade and fast. I must admit this is the best game EVER I have leveled in, really it is! It was awesome, I even listened to the conversations (most the time) I mean even tho I had to pick up 4 boxes and kill 10 people like any other game this was much cooler! I did it to save this family from dying from disease and at the same time wash away the republics from the planet and help the overall battle that was going on. The small things had purpose, and it OWNS!

 

But once you hit max, and your companions start to not matter, your ship is decked and you play the same missions over and over... You start to race the guys running in circles on the space station, and jumping over people when you see them, making that into your activity - Then you know the game is not holding your interest anymore =/

 

I want to love this game so badly, I really do. But if March dont bring some gold at the end of the rainbow, I will have to leave or pause my playing for the time being, and I just dont want too man =/

 

But fact is. You got a game that is WAY to easy, with the only endgame being easter eggs, a VERY poor PvP experiance (nothing innovative, its more of a step back from DAOC/Warhammer etc) and some raids that frankly surprised me in difficulty. The raids themselves are cool, well made and totally cool boss features, they really are. But some of the bosses we also got the first time we tried em. What the hell is that? I want to getthe boss to max 80% and be like "holy hell, we need to work on our tactics!"

 

Please fix the game before its drive me to funcom's arms. They are a lying PoS company. But maybe the got a better game =/

[Calibre]

My first beta review was meh: I stated this game was neither great nor bad, but somewhere in the middle. I said it was EQ1 with a Star Wars skin. I came back and had to say I was wrong.

 

I was.

 

But now, I have no choice but to say: this game IS bad. It's 90s MMOG gameplay (lacking the complexity) we had to endure, way back then. The Lead Designer should, IMO, be fired. I do not say that lightly. Anyone who thought the Star Wars brand name would be 'good enough' to cover the flaws inherent in the engine chosen and abysmal writing, coding and graphic design---seriously is in the wrong line of work. In this day and age (whether you consider online entertainment or RL,, whatever) every $ counts. At the end of the day, I have no choice but to ask myself this fundamental question:

 

Why am I paying my money and time for this game?

 

If I answer this, or worse: no idea

 

Then something is more than wrong.

 

Cal

[Deewe]

the company has to create the frame for PvP **snip** Bioware has totally failed in that department, unfortunately.

**snip**

 

The other features you can make is social, and timesinks. Minigames, dancing, music, painting, decorating, house shopping, mount gathering etc. BW has totally failed there as well unfortunately.

**snip**

 

It will rock your world from 1-50 and the week after that. Then the fun starts to degrade and fast. I must admit this is the best game EVER I have leveled in, really it is!

**snip**

 

But fact is. You got a game that is WAY to easy,

 

Summarize pretty much the status of the game right now but for the UI and lack of character customization.

 

 

Anyone who thought the Star Wars brand name would be 'good enough' to cover the flaws inherent in the engine chosen and abysmal writing, coding and graphic design---seriously is in the wrong line of work.

One thing they had right is with the SW IP they were going to sell lot of boxes at launch. In that nobody can deny they didn't succeed.

 

I wouldn't go as far as saying the writing is abysmal but it's certainly not enthralling.

Personally I like the graphic environments but the art direction for the gear and character proportions is indeed abysmal: in the context of a SW setting. You can't really blame the artists here, they done what was asked by their director.

 

We've been knowing from a long time a big emphasis was put on the story and alas, we weren't wrong thinking it was at the detriment of others features and not as a great topping.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Deewe

[MajorTuff]

I think the game is somewhat well balanced. Some say it's to easy. That depends in my opinion, if you play it alone or just try to wiz thru it with some friends.

If the game was really hard to the point where you always needed more people to get things done, I prob wouldn't play it. I don't like games that are so dam hard you cant get anything done alone, so this is why I feel it's more well balanced. I like the idea that I can get alot of Heroic 2+ quests done alone with just my companion. The Things I dont like about this game are the crazy prices for everything you want & need. This was the same problem with SWG. Everything too dam expensive.

Example. 40k for speeder 1 training. 5K for your 1st extra inventory row, then 20K for the next.

55K for some lvl 3 rider speeders ect. 210K for rider 2 training, dont know how much for lvl 3 yet, I'll take a guess, 1million??? the same price for VIP accsess for those that didn't by the collectors edition.. Come on Dev's,, what are you thinking here???

Yes,, one thing this game needs is more fun factor. I won't be surprized if they change the current top lvl 50 to 90 or higher, just like they did in WOW, just to keep us busy & the crying down a bit..

Not being able to get a speeder till lvl 25 & then it's 48K for lvl 1 rider & a lvl 1 speeder.

IN SWG you got a speeder 1st day, right away if you knew what NPC to go to, & It was free once you did the quest & found all the parts,, Fun stuff ..

This game,,, where's the fun? Showing people how good you are in PVP cuz you got something to prove to the world? You wizzed right thru this game to get to lvl 50 for that & now you cry cuz you got nothing to do? How about make another charactor & do it again.. Guess not,I see how the quest lines go for both sides, & that can become boring after a while. I'll admit I fell asleep 3X while roaming thru the desert 40 days & nights cuz you dont get the speeder till lvl 25. Then it dont go fast enough for ya.. LOL..

Yes,, Not enough fun factor in this game.

I've been reading the forums. People want to know what Bio Ware is going to do about the unbalanced sides on some servers now? Guess some people have already cancelled thier sub's huh?

Yep,, I'd say Bio Ware better read these posts & make some changes real quick by listening to the fan base. Unless they think they can sit on thier duffs while the fan base continues to dwindle down... Wake up Boys !! The coffee break was over last month.

[Kaelshi]

I played MMOs actively since UO open beta. I tried a shítfull of mmos and seen features come and go. Developers lying, hyping, you name it. I would call myself a Vet.

 

What most games are missing now a days is that the these game are to easy for the vets. Most MMO vets knows just by looking at the characters spell lists what till be good and what will not. They just fall into the role of kiting or healing or whatever. That makes the game to easy, basically. Companies cater to the people who will make them the money, the masses, the casuals. They pay as much as the vets and the hardcores, and they will take alot longer to level up, therefor everything will have improved when they get up there. That makes them the golden goose, and thats why MMOs can survive for a long time on just casuals like that. They have a business plan that if the game sells this many copies, and runs for this long... Volla, money in the back and from there its all gravy.

 

You can run games like that, sure. You can add elements that will keeps most hardcore players on they're best behavior, and play the game for a while. You create content that is shifting, and can be rewarding, and supply itself, and there is PvP. PvP is special that its different everytime you do it, there is people who are good people that are bad and so on. This does not happen by itself tho, the company has to create the frame for PvP, and make it strong and fun and durable. Thing is, people dont mind playing the same Ilum over and over if there is features there that makes it fun. Bioware has totally failed in that department, unfortunetly.

 

The other features you can make is social, and timesinks. Minigames, dancing, music, painting, decorating, house shopping, mount gathering etc. BW has totally failed there as well unfortunetly.

 

So right now you have a game that will suck you in ever so badly. It will rock your world from 1-50 and the week after that. Then the fun starts to degrade and fast. I must admit this is the best game EVER I have leveled in, really it is! It was awesome, I even listened to the conversations (most the time) I mean even tho I had to pick up 4 boxes and kill 10 people like any other game this was much cooler! I did it to save this family from dying from disease and at the same time wash away the republics from the planet and help the overall battle that was going on. The small things had purpose, and it OWNS!

 

But once you hit max, and your companions start to not matter, your ship is decked and you play the same missions over and over... You start to race the guys running in circles on the space station, and jumping over people when you see them, making that into your activity - Then you know the game is not holding your interest anymore =/

 

I want to love this game so badly, I really do. But if March dont bring some gold at the end of the rainbow, I will have to leave or pause my playing for the time being, and I just dont want too man =/

 

But fact is. You got a game that is WAY to easy, with the only endgame being easter eggs, a VERY poor PvP experiance (nothing innovative, its more of a step back from DAOC/Warhammer etc) and some raids that frankly surprised me in difficulty. The raids themselves are cool, well made and totally cool boss features, they really are. But some of the bosses we also got the first time we tried em. What the hell is that? I want to getthe boss to max 80% and be like "holy hell, we need to work on our tactics!"

 

Please fix the game before its drive me to funcom's arms. They are a lying PoS company. But maybe the got a better game =/

 

I disagree with you. All the things you think are broke/dont like, I think are mostly fine/are fun.

 

As for ease of play......the simple and easy to follow fact is that hard(or more precisely requiring a massive time investment or complicated)gameplay leads to a smaller playerbase.

 

You can in fact play still play UO, Meridian59, Everquest etc. if you think those games are better than todays current offerings.

 

The problem is you think those games were "hard" and these games are "easy" and I believe you are viewing it the way you would say hitting a major league fastball is hard and hitting a softball thrown by a 15 year old is easy(one takes a massive amount of SKILL and the other most people can stand up there and do).

 

The older mmo's were not HARD in that sense. They were time-sinks. Little skill was ever truly involved(in some cases such as meridian59 pvp built vs. built perhaps but from uo on the required skill dropped and the required time-sink skyrocketed)

[FlightSergeant]

I disagree with you. All the things you think are broke/dont like, I think are mostly fine/are fun.

 

As for ease of play......the simple and easy to follow fact is that hard(or more precisely requiring a massive time investment or complicated)gameplay leads to a smaller playerbase.

 

You can in fact play still play UO, Meridian59, Everquest etc. if you think those games are better than todays current offerings.

 

The problem is you think those games were "hard" and these games are "easy" and I believe you are viewing it the way you would say hitting a major league fastball is hard and hitting a softball thrown by a 15 year old is easy(one takes a massive amount of SKILL and the other most people can stand up there and do).

 

The older mmo's were not HARD in that sense. They were time-sinks. Little skill was ever truly involved(in some cases such as meridian59 pvp built vs. built perhaps but from uo on the required skill dropped and the required time-sink skyrocketed)

 

 

 

I believe you hold the minority opinion.

[GOCOLTS]

We can thank WoW for that. No, really...

 

No, you can thank bioware for that. Blizzard didnt make this pos, bioware did. Bioware could have made this game any way they wanted, yet they chose to copy wow and add lightsabers. Blame those who make the game, not the ones that defined the genre.

[Radubadu]

Blame those who make the game, not the ones that defined the genre.

 

Blizzard didn't define the genre...

[Loseriticus]

I believe you hold the minority opinion.

 

That's the thing--everyone thinks their opinion is the majority opinion.

[Oldgrimm]

No, you can thank bioware for that. Blizzard didnt make this pos, bioware did. Bioware could have made this game any way they wanted, yet they chose to copy wow and add lightsabers. Blame those who make the game, not the ones that defined the genre.

 

Problem is, that they even failed to make a good copy of the working MMO features.

This game is lacking the core features, which are standard in MMOs for at least 7 years now.

 

So EA created another WAR...

 

At least the good part is, there are not many good franchises left to destroy.

 

SWTOR will go through the next 2 or 3 waves of new player coming and leaving after 2-3 months and in about a year nobody will even talk about this PoS.

(At least now we have the reason for the staggered release plans of SWTOR)

 

As a MMO vet, I have to say, that SWTOR will join the ranks of epic failed MMOs like AoC / Vanguard / Tabula rasa and WAR.

The only sad thing is, that they actually managed to destroy such a promising franchise.

[darthjerro]

I've been playing games since 1981... And I have every game console and computer created, pretty much. I collect retro computers. I have a nest of machines in this room from the humble Amiga through to Elite, PS3, Dreamcast, Cube and a couple of powerful PCs rigged up to big screens. Gaming is a hobby of mine and I really take no prisoners when it comes to entertainment. I loved WoW and actually still play, along with Rift and the odd flurry into STO. I also have Guildwars. With 10 at cap in both Rift and WoW I kinda have done most of whats to offer really. Those games are good. I bought Final Fantasy XIII-2 this week but have yet to fire it up. I won't play unless its fun.

 

And to this game... Level 17. The game is brilliant. Loving it. I don't generally get put off by what anyone says about the game. After all its my game. And the game is intoxicating I have to say. I have done little else this weekend. I can easily see me doing this for the next year. Classic.

 

PS I thought Skyrim was crap... Played all of one hour before the box hit the shelf.

 

I was only 4 in 1981, so i didnt have a controller in my hand yet, 5 more years i was gaming though. Ive hapilly owned an intellevision, C64,sega master system, amiga and a plethora of other gaming systems and have played thousands of games of every genre.

 

I still remember playing wizardry 7 ( and mapping out the whole game on paper ), it took me months and months, after school, sports etc....One of my best gaming memories that game...

 

Wow i raided pretty hardcore for 5 years till it turned carebear.

Tor ive played for 2 months , hit cap, and even though i LOVE star wars, The ip isnt enough to keep me here.

Tor is basically fisher price:my first raid, heck its fisher price: my first computer game...

 

The game is WAY too easy and forgiving. Might as well just mail us credits and gear its that easy.

I quit wow because it become " casual friendly " , why the hell would i migrate and play an even easier game...

 

PS. Although skyrim is a shameless console port, with a few mods ( and most importantly ) the difficulty turned up harder, its actually quit an awesome game..

Ahh the days of daggerfall, where random enemies spawned when you least expected them nor wanted them to.....

[Traumahawk]

Problem is, that they even failed to make a good copy of the working MMO features.

This game is lacking the core features, which are standard in MMOs for at least 7 years now.

 

So EA created another WAR...

 

At least the good part is, there are not many good franchises left to destroy.

 

SWTOR will go through the next 2 or 3 waves of new player coming and leaving after 2-3 months and in about a year nobody will even talk about this PoS.

(At least now we have the reason for the staggered release plans of SWTOR)

 

As a MMO vet, I have to say, that SWTOR will join the ranks of epic failed MMOs like AoC / Vanguard / Tabula rasa and WAR.

The only sad thing is, that they actually managed to destroy such a promising franchise.

 

I predict that within two months, some major personnel changes will occur with this product's production staff. Someone is going to have to fall on the sword--it always ends that way. I'm sure that someone has been given target goals (subscriber trends, player opinion, etc) and told that if things don't improve, they are out. I'm quite frankly surprised we haven't seen it already.

 

Give it a little bit longer and you will start seeing press releases about developers leaving on "mutual terms" to pursue "other creative ventures" with "no hard feelings toward Bioware" and stating that "the game is going to be a great success and I wish the team all the best of luck". Then the fun starts when the former employees start a game design blog and we can finally see all that dirty laundry.

[PhoenixMatrix]

My biggest knock is the game is too easy and forgiving. Gear is gained too easily. Content is cleared too easily. This leads to the complaints you see from some about having nothing to do at 50. I also think that a MMO based on people having to roll alts is not a great long term strat for a sub based MMO.

 

That said, I understand that BW is positioning the game to be just that. The easiest, most accessible MMO on the market. Some 'MMO vets' may not take to that well and may not stick with this game.

 

And that was WoW's goal originally, and everyone's complain. I remember when WoW came out, I was playing Lineage 2 (garbage game in hindsight, but whatever =P). At that time, once you got high level enough, it took a solid 60 hours of straight grinding with a flawless group with top-on-the-server loot to get a level. Then WoW came out and people were getting max level in a few days/weeks while still having a life. In Lineage 2, you if you died you lost as much as 10-20 hours worth of grinding. In WoW?....

 

Oh man were the forums filled with "Carebear! Too easy! Ruinning the genre! The casuals are taking over! Nothing to do after a few weeks!" Basically everything you hear about this game.

 

Point is, the gaming industry is one that is growing. Fast. The demographic is changing significantly every year. The carebears of today are the hardcores of tomorrow. When I was 7 years old and finished battletoad or finished Megaman 1 and 2 without ever getting hit, no one really raised an eyebrow. Now people think they're hot stuff for finishing Devil May Cry 3/4 or Ninja Gaiden 2 on highest difficulty. Times change I personally just let that go and enjoy the lightsabers. Bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....

[Drannor]

Tor ive played for 2 months , hit cap, and even though i LOVE star wars, The ip isnt enough to keep me here.

Tor is basically fisher price:my first raid, heck its fisher price: my first computer game...

 

This. I really enjoyed leveling my first character, but after hitting cap there is not much to do.

Aprat from daily quest there is only one one option, re-roll.

 

30+ days of my subscription left and I'm playing LOTRO instead of TOR...

 

Waiting for some good news in 6 hours:

http://countingdownto.com/countdown/37040

[VegaPhone]

My thoughts are in the link in my sig (http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=216855). To that post, add this:

 

- No day/night cycle

- No swimming

- No housing

- No Pazaak, Sabacc, Dejarik, races, casino, etc...

- Dumbed down character creation

- No post-creation character customization

- No appearance tab/outfit system

- No high res textures

- No environmental interaction (chairs, walls, doors, etc...)

- Simple combat with static enemies

- Unconvincing and stiff animations

- Empty dead worlds with not enough NPCs moving around

- No collision detection

- No stats on resources

- No crafting customization

- Restriction in choice of starship

- No ship decoration

- Dumbed down space combat

- No multiplayer space combat

- Removal of many races

- No faction change/neutrality

- Restriction and instanced planets by faction

- Less planets than announced

- Planets rated by levels with no reason to go back

- No GM events

- Removal of choice to kill companion

- Removal of possibility to talk to other faction at all times

- No RP tools

- Nothing to do post-story

- Endgame consisting on waiting in fleet

 

Thats a good list. however faction change would be nice in theory, but would have issues with missing out on the class story of the character they are going to mirror.

 

Maybe for post 50 content in an expansion, there can be a faction changing story line, and both sides have the 8 classes.

 

I would like that. But the issue seems to be is then... 'is the faction change permanent?', and 'how long does it last for every faction change if not permenant? What about faction balance? For a single player game it works out fine. However how many other MMOs have this in their game, and how did it work out for them?

Edited February 20, 2012 by VegaPhone

[Mosene]

No guild structure, poor pvp infrastructure, mediocre input responsiveness...

 

I'm only here until Planetside 2 launches. This game is NOT for PvPers.

 

This...

[Smitar]

"I still remember playing wizardry 7"

 

Same, that was fun back in the day.

 

My favorite all time game? Starflight. Best computer game ever made, all on 2x 5 1/4" floppies and a wall map of the galaxy. Still got a 1" thick binder with all the game notes and maps somewhere.

[shadviper]

The max life span for this game will inevitably be 5 years. Unless they stop making the same mistakes that Star Wars Galaxies made in its first 5 years...TOR will be completely gone in 10 years...outside estimation. They are building on the mentallity of a single player game locked on Insanity level with absolutely no options for cheat codes or trainers. I have played RPGs and MMOs for years and while this has an AWESOME concept...it is catering to a specific ideal. Make a game that no cheats or trainers can mess with...well they got that and they have inherited the EXACT same issues that Galaxies had in its beginning. The developers for Galaxies discovered their mistakes and corrected them, but it was too late...by 5 years and now that game no longer exists.

 

TOR has, like I said, an AWESOME concept. However, they didn't actually do anything with that concept other than market it...they just took on the problems of their predecessor and ignored what was working in MMOs and went with what didn't work in the first place.

 

Do I hope that they figure out the issues in time...yes.

Do I believe that they will fix those issues...maybe.

Do I believe that this game will last longer than 5 to 10 years...not unless they make some drastic changes in their way of THINKING that a MMO is just a single player game on steroids.

 

I hope that they actually do something about keeping things interesting in the future...like letting players continue on past level 50. Otherwise this will bomb like Galaxies and the CEOs will be sitting around scratching their heads wondering why they failed in the first place.

[shadviper]

I believe you hold the minority opinion.

 

Actually that person hit right on the money...Bio Ware raked in people that have NEVER played an MMO before in their life, BECAUSE of the Star Wars name. If you cater strictly to Vet players, then you shoot yourself in the foot and watch your game go belly up because you cater to the Vets only. I look for enjoyment when playing a game...and you CANNOT enjoy a game if you shoot through it and cap out immediately. If anything the Dev's need to reine in the Elites and Bosses and shave off 10% of their difficulty, because as I just said...people who have NEVER played a MMO before were hooked with the Star Wars name and if Bio Ware wants to keep ANY players at all then they will need to stop making the EXACT same mistakes that Star Wars Galaxies made.

 

They need to find a happy medium where they can make everyone player type happy. Otherwise, they will have a 3-5 year max life span before they realize that they made a mistake, but by then it will be too late and they will have lost 85% or their player base...just like Star Wars Galaxies.