Give me a legitimate reason to NOT have a LFD tool.

[thecoffeecup]

I was just correcting someone who assumed that when someone says a LFG is not social it automatically means that spamming LFG is social. I was just showing that there are social ways to finding a group. I was not saying they are better or worse, just that they exist. Please read and comprehend what people are talking about before you respond, thank you.

 

I did read all of it. I did understand it.

 

I'm pointing out that even if you are social and even if you do have a guild and ingame friends, it doesn't mean you can always avoid teaming up with random people to get things done.

 

For those times when you have to find a group with random people, a LFD tool would be better than spamming general.

 

Yes, it would mean some people wouldn't have the same need for a guild to get things done. Maybe some of them would be less social. So what? I want the people in my guild and my ingame friends to be people that actually ENJOY playing with other people and are not just there because otherwise they can't get things done.

 

I don't want to be missing out on an excellent tool for finding groups in some misguided attempt at forcing people to be more social.

 

The LFD tool didn't destroy my guild in WoW, by the way, far from it. We always played with the guild and our friends first, and we used the dungeon finder if not enough people were online. Sometimes we signed up 2-4 people up if we couldn't quite find 5 and we got some randoms to join us. So we still got things done by playing with our friends. Is this antisocial?

Edited February 12, 2012 by thecoffeecup

[EvilTrollGuy]

The problem with the X-server LFD tool is that it allows the D-bags to get away with being D-bags. If you play on a server and are a complete tool to people, they will place you on ignore and eventually you will not be able to get groups. You would either have to quit or improve your attitude and reroll. The X-server lfd bypasses the community self-policing and allows said D-bags to continue to play and have a negative impact on the server communities.

 

I played Cata and I was almost ready for raiding (I did raid once as a stand-in) and I cannot remember a single time someone stole an item, and if it happend it wasn't a lot.

 

I did have several bad/clueless groups, but that is nothing you can prevent anyway. People will alway be bad, with our without a x-server LFD tool.

 

Obviously I don't count for the entire MMO population, but I'm fairy certain that that good groups created from a LFD tool will heavily outweight the bad ones, but that's just my opinion.

Edited February 12, 2012 by EvilTrollGuy

[MajikMyst]

There is no legitimate reason.

 

That you would accept as a reason.. We get that.. That doesn't mean there is no legitimate reason..

 

It would be like me saying there is no legitimate reason for one either.. Because in reality.. There isn't a reason to have one..

 

So where do we go from here?? I happen to like the LFG tool in the game that nobody seems to use.. How long before people realize that this game isn't WOW and not everything has to be like WOW?? How long before people stop attemptinng to make this game into WOW??

[RobNightfall]

What Bioware could do since day one, is to add two systems to prevent any lack of accountability and ninja looting:

 

1. Internal Player behavior points system, much like the one used on driver licenses in some countries and US states. This way reported or kicked players will have less to no chances to group up with the same people again, eventually preventing them from doing any group Flashpoint/Warzone content until their restrictions are lifted.

 

# 1 Please, just no. You're worried about player behavior and you want to give the tools to correct it to the all players, including the ones that behave badly. Tools like this get abused, like everything else. It sucks, but MMOs feature a large number of people and by default a large number a**holes will show up. Just like any public entertainment gathering you have to tolerate them unless they actually break a law.

 

2. Proper gear looting restrictions based on item level, queued role, spec, stats, type of armor, selected companion (yellow in Crew Skills) in case no one needs the gear and a companion could use it.

 

# 2 Please very much YES. Would be nice to be able to structure looting this way.

 

Also, I support the LFD tool. It will help all players and especially players with limited time make the most of their game.

Edited February 12, 2012 by RobNightfall

[MajikMyst]

When Cata released for WoW I was almost ready for raiding (I did raid once as a stand-in). I cannot remember a single time someone stole an item, and if it happend it wasn't a lot.

 

I did have several bad/clueless groups, but that is nothing you can prevent anyway. People will alway be bad, with our without a x-server LFD tool.

 

Obviously I don't count for the entire MMO population, but I'm fairy certain that that good groups created from a LFD tool will heavily outweight the bad ones, but that's just my opinion.

 

Some of us played before cata.. Cata wasn't the begining of WOW nor was it the beginging of their LFG tool..

[EvilTrollGuy]

Some of us played before cata.. Cata wasn't the begining of WOW nor was it the beginging of their LFG tool..

 

Holy crap my post was badly worded. Nomatter at what point of WoW you played, I'm fairly certain most of the people utilizing the LFD tool have had a great experience with it.

 

A server-wide LFD will not stop the doucebags. You might stop some of them, but it they'll still be around and when some of them decides to behave properly another one will show it's fugly face.

[astrocanis]

I agree with everything you have said and honestly if the game never gets one people will just leave, spamming chat sucks every one I know on the game hates it, people in general comment on how much they hate it, it will get very old. The only people left playing this game will be the ones that dont want one and honestly i dont think they make up the majority of the community, almost everyone I talk to in game does not post on these forums and the ones that know about them say how bad the people on the forums are.

 

Hmm. I'd be in favor of leaving if they institute a cross-server LFD tool. Nothing good, other than queue times, has ever resulted from one IMO.

 

Yak all you'd like to about how there is no community and that, even if there was one it wouldn't matter. I disagree entirely.

 

I'll bet you also think things are too easy in the game, don't you... lol

[JimG]

First of all, quit calling it a "LFD" tool. We don't have Dungeons. People need to start losing the WoW terminology. Otherwise you come across as someone who is just trying to urge this game to copy WoW.

 

Currently, there is no LFG que tool. Therefore, the people who want it need to be doing the convincing here as they are asking BW to change the game. The people who don't want a LFG que tool aren't asking for BW to do anything.

 

The real issues with finding groups for flashpoints, heroics, etc. lies with lower population servers. A LFG tool will not create people looking for a particular flashpoint. It will only, theoretically, make those people easier to find. It's pretty easy to find groups on the higher pop servers so they would be better served dealing with the rule issue here through server merging, server transfers, forcing new players to lower pop servers, etc. than putting a bandaid on the problem with a LFG tool.

 

If there is any LFG tool, it should only be server-specific. Like many people who don't want a LFG tool, I believe that people should suffer the consequences of their actions. If someone is a complete jerk, they should have to deal with that reputation when trying to find groups rather than simply being able to jump into que after que for groups.

 

Also, given the amount of people who are apparently convinced they can't blow their nose without a tank on one side of them and a healer on the other side of them, what happens when 4 dps people get put into the que together? They all quit and go back into the que? People are so freaking particular about the constitution of their groups, even when it's not necessary, that a LFG que doesn't seem very efficient. So what's the solution there? You going to force all groups to be 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps? You going to tell people what group make-up they are required to have? Will dps people whine because the que takes them 3-4 times longer as all the tanks and healers get put into groups ahead of them?

 

Just doesn't seem like there is a huge upside to it when you're really talking about treating the symptoms not the disease when it comes to the issue of server population imbalances.

[DarthKhaos]

First of all, quit calling it a "LFD" tool.

I don't need a Looking for Dungeon/Flashpoint Tool. I already know where they are located.

[MajikMyst]

Holy crap my post was badly worded. Nomatter at what point of WoW you played, I'm fairly certain most of the people utilizing the LFD tool have had a great experience with it. .

 

I didn't and neither did most of the people that I talked to that used it.. We hated the ninja looting.. It did nothing for wait times for DPS folks.. It did nothing for socializing.. I met a lot of nice people spamming trade for a group..

 

So while your opinions are fine and dandy.. They are just that opinions.. Many folks had a bad experience with it.. But that is our opinions and we have a right to them.. And they are just as legitimate as yours..

 

The fact of the issue is, a cross server LFG system doesn't promote any accountability.. People can ninja loot or generally just be a jerk to their fellow players and there is no accountability.. They are on another server.. If you also noticed.. In WOW, the LFG system didn't stop people spamming trade for groups?? Why is that do you suppose??

[astrocanis]

Based on the topic, I'll warrant that there is no reason that you will find valid. Because your convenience will matter more than any contra argument will.

[MajikMyst]

First of all, quit calling it a "LFD" tool. We don't have Dungeons. People need to start losing the WoW terminology. Otherwise you come across as someone who is just trying to urge this game to copy WoW..

 

About freaken time someone caught on to that.. Biggest legitimate reason of all not to have an LFD tool.. We don't have dungeons.. That is not a matter of opinion either..

 

A award for you good sir!!

 

May the force be with you!!

[Touchbass]

Based on the topic, I'll warrant that there is no reason that you will find valid. Because your convenience will matter more than any contra argument will.

 

I think he's trying to suggest that people are repeating myths over and over again that have no factual presence. A good one is ninja looting. You currently cannot ninja loot in WoW with the X-LFD but people try and mention that it happens all the time. What the occurence is people don't like it that someone rolled on an item that they thought they were entitled too. What they fail to realise is Blizzard has set those loot paramets for a reason and rolling for off spec, although frowned upon, is a perfectly valid method of gearing up for some people. I'd rather have a tank collect pieces and have gear before a run then start out fresh with nothing.

[astrocanis]

I think he's trying to suggest that people are repeating myths over and over again that have no factual presence. A good one is ninja looting. You currently cannot ninja loot in WoW with the X-LFD but people try and mention that it happens all the time. What the occurence is people don't like it that someone rolled on an item that they thought they were entitled too. What they fail to realise is Blizzard has set those loot paramets for a reason and rolling for off spec, although frowned upon, is a perfectly valid method of gearing up for some people. I'd rather have a tank collect pieces and have gear before a run then start out fresh with nothing.

 

I don't care about ninja loot. It's pixels. I DO care, however, about my overall game experience. In no game that I'm aware of (WoW, Rift) has it improved the game experience other than to speed up queues. As soon as it was introduced, instances had to be "tuned" to enable brain dead keyboard turners the ability to speed-run them.

 

That is why I am leaving Rift, although I'm in a good guild and rarely have to pug.

 

They aren't myths. They are experiences. You can dispute my experiences all you'd like but they remain as factual to me as they are mythical to you - and perhaps that says a bit about your overall perceptiveness.

[thecoffeecup]

The real issues with finding groups for flashpoints, heroics, etc. lies with lower population servers. A LFG tool will not create people looking for a particular flashpoint. It will only, theoretically, make those people easier to find. It's pretty easy to find groups on the higher pop servers so they would be better served dealing with the rule issue here through server merging, server transfers, forcing new players to lower pop servers, etc. than putting a bandaid on the problem with a LFG tool.

 

Agreed that this is a big part of the problem. However, we need a tool so it's easier to find the people who actually want to do dungeons. The current flag and text we have in the game are ridiculously poor. Even if people did want to use them, the UI doesn't permit a very long text, AND the text is sometimes cleared and replaced by "LFG". If you want people to use a system, implement it properly.

 

A proper tool would allow you to quickly see which other players are interested. It doesn't have to be exactly what they had in WoW.

 

Today we were looking for ages for a tank and healer and could not find any. After trying for a very long time, we had to give up. 5 minutes later TWO tanks show up on Fleet and start announcing they want to join a group. Information is lost like crazy because there is no system, and even if there are interested people, it's hard to find them. Keep in mind this is on a server where we have 150ish people on Fleet.

 

Also, given the amount of people who are apparently convinced they can't blow their nose without a tank on one side of them and a healer on the other side of them, what happens when 4 dps people get put into the que together? They all quit and go back into the que? People are so freaking particular about the constitution of their groups, even when it's not necessary, that a LFG que doesn't seem very efficient.

You do realize the game was made that way right? It's very hard to complete flashpoints without tanking and healing, at least later in the game. This was a deliberate design decision by BioWare to have the old MMO trinity in the game.

 

Oh and in the dungeon finder from WoW (and yes, it is completely legitimate to seek inspiration in other games, which SWTOR has done quite a lot already, by the way) there are spots for the different roles. You can't have too many DPS in a group, so nobody has to leave and go back.

 

So what's the solution there? You going to force all groups to be 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps? You going to tell people what group make-up they are required to have? Will dps people whine because the que takes them 3-4 times longer as all the tanks and healers get put into groups ahead of them?

 

Pretty much yeah because they designed the game around this trinity. Not exactly a surprise.

 

You also have to remember that even if DPS have to queue for 20 minutes to find a group, that still means they actually get a group in 20 minutes. That's way better than it is now where you often just have to give up.

 

Just doesn't seem like there is a huge upside to it when you're really talking about treating the symptoms not the disease when it comes to the issue of server population imbalances.

 

I agree that something most be done about server populations. If that happened, there could be a single-server LFD system.

 

PS: I'd be happy if they just made a way to flag yourself as LFG for this and that, and you could easily search for other people who are flagged the same way. The current implementation does NOT work and doesn't help you look at all. Why would people use it then?

[Jahor]

More important then a LFD/LFG tool is to shorten travel times between planets/station. 6 to 8 loading screens is just to much and hinders me more to join a PUG then the finding of a PUG.

 

Oh and a nother problem espezialy for the small FPs or first H2/H4 of a planet: after the 100 different call "LFG Essels" ... I just ignore them. At last at the servers where I play the first 3 FPs are done every 10 minuts while primetime.

A FLG/LFD tool wouldn't change this .

 

But a LFD/LFG tool isn't bad IF it is optional!

Might be a nice way to find some new ingame friends .... or to sort some bady out by /ignore *g*.

 

Oh yes. It MUST include my /friends AND /ignore lists!!!!!!

If I get groupd with people from my /ignore ... I will fail terrbile !!

[grueber]

Alot of the FPs are quite doable without a dedicated tank as long as you have a good healer and adequate CC. Did Mando Raiders with a sniper/merc/op/marauder and it was quite easy with 25 being the average party level. People are usually too scared to try though.

[thecoffeecup]

Alot of the FPs are quite doable without a dedicated tank as long as you have a good healer and adequate CC. Did Mando Raiders with a sniper/merc/op/marauder and it was quite easy with 25 being the average party level. People are usually too scared to try though.

 

Sure. It's harder with higher-level stuff though.

 

Everything below Raiders is definitely doable without a tank.

[Jahor]

Alot of the FPs are quite doable without a dedicated tank as long as you have a good healer and adequate CC. Did Mando Raiders with a sniper/merc/op/marauder and it was quite easy with 25 being the average party level. People are usually too scared to try though.

 

You just need to check the talent trees

 

The first new healing talent which makes you heal better is Tier 3 or 4.

Tier 3 = 11 points = level 21

Tier 4 = 16 points = level 26

And then you do the job just SLIGHTLY better then without this talents.

 

Same for tanking or dps.

 

So all you need might be someone who know he has a healing spell and that he can use it ... and somewhone who knows he has a defensive form/stance .

Or 3+compenion (if he isn't naked).

[Touchbass]

I don't care about ninja loot. It's pixels. I DO care, however, about my overall game experience. In no game that I'm aware of (WoW, Rift) has it improved the game experience other than to speed up queues. As soon as it was introduced, instances had to be "tuned" to enable brain dead keyboard turners the ability to speed-run them.

 

That is why I am leaving Rift, although I'm in a good guild and rarely have to pug.

 

They aren't myths. They are experiences. You can dispute my experiences all you'd like but they remain as factual to me as they are mythical to you - and perhaps that says a bit about your overall perceptiveness.

 

You can turn off those buffs in WoW and run them the way they are suppose to be intended. Dungeons were never suppose to be harder then raids. Now, instead of bickering over "difficulty", make tiered difficulties like what WoW is doing. Problem solved.

 

I didn't say your experiences are myths, just that a lot of people are propagating unrealistic events, not saying it's you personally but way you speak of other people leads me to believe you might be one.

[DarthKhaos]

I just thought of something. Most DPs isn't gonna have to wait too long because once the wait gets too long and they go afk they'll get kicked from the game pretty quick shortening the queues. Haha. Let's just hope there isn't a queue for tanks. Healers seem to be more rare in this game than tanks.

[Dominemesis]

So, you haven't really debunked the arguments; you've just said you disagree with them. Some don't.

 

Personally, I think there's a lot of truth to the argument that LFD systems (at least as implemented in WoW and Rift) do hurt community. Not only do they remove the incentive to socialize by removing the need to have friends in the game for grouping with, but the way groups are slammed together and people are teleported right in front of the first fight removed any need to communicate at all. As a result, people generally don't. Those of us who've played in games with that type of LFD system know that in the majority of cases, you end up with a group that barely says one word to each other. They pop in, grind through their instance, and split up at the end without ever having connected in any way at all.

 

Personally, I think that's where the bad behavior in LFD groups comes from. It's hard to see other players as people in that kind of mostly unsocial setting. Also, the lack of a connection with those people makes it easier to treat them badly.

 

Now, I now a lot of people want a tool that makes finding a group easier. I haven't had any trouble myself, bu I know many have, and that the current LFG system is sorely lacking. However, if/when it gets upgraded or replaced, I'd hope that something is learned from the systems in other games, and I really think it's possible to build something better. In my opinion, just not having the teleport functionality would go a long way toward doing that. It'd give people a reason to talk before they start fighting. It may just be a simple "On my way, be there in two minutes," but at least it'd be something. That may be all it takes to make people in your group seem like actual people, and not just voiceless bots that seem more like NPCs than humans.

 

People who want to socialize with a bunch of strangers still will, people who just want to experience the game will be able to. Bad behavior will happen regardless, ninja looting wasn't invented by LFG tools, nor did it become even more prevalent. Although, facilitating faster groups and dungeon runs will make the sting of it less of an issue, since you will likely be back in the dungeon having another go for that loot before you even get a response from a CS for having been ninja'd in a good LFG system.

 

Diablo was a huge success, and multiplayer, and folks often didn't say anything to each other, nor did they need to use calendar softs to get it together to just to run the dungeons. I don't know what kind of accounting and logistics ******* assume getting 16 chuckleheads together just to run the dungeon is fun or part of the challenge, but it isn't. It is just logistics. I for one, and most of those in favor of such a LFG tool, find that part of it a massive turn off. It would be like having to contact 18-24 other people by phone, text, or email, and scheduling them in order to arrange a deathmatch in MW2. Were Diablo and MW2 failures with regards to socializing or multiplayer because it handled the logistical nightmare of grouping for you? Of course not. 'nuff said.

Edited February 12, 2012 by Dominemesis

[Touchbass]

People who want to socialize with a bunch of strangers still will, people who just want to experience the game will be able to. Bad behavior will happen regardless, ninja looting wasn't invented by LFG tools, nor did it become even more prevalent. Although, facilitating faster groups and dungeon runs will make the sting of it less of an issue, since you will likely be back in the dungeon having another go for that loot before you even get a response from a CS for having been ninja'd in a good LFG system.

 

Diablo was a huge success, and multiplayer, and folks often didn't say anything to each other, nor did they need to use calendar softs to get it together to just to run the dungeons. I don't know what kind of accounting and logistics ******* assume getting 16 chuckleheads together just to run the dungeon is fun or part of the challenge, but it isn't. It is just logistics. I for one, and most of those in favor of such a LFG tool, find that part of it a massive turn off. It would be like having to contact 18-24 other people by phone, text, or email, and scheduling them in order to arrange a deathmatch in MW2. Were Diablo and MW2 failures with regards to socializing or multiplayer because it handled the logistical nightmare of grouping for you? Of course not. 'nuff said.

 

 

I liked your thoughts on the issue. I think we wouldn't even have this problem if dungeons were more engaging and not the epicentre of the gear grind. If you have a system that requires people to run flash points over and over again for gear people become jaded, rude, and generally unhelpful. I'm seeing in /fleet already, "LF tank, must be geared", these the the symptoms of a much bigger problem. My 2 cents.

[ragamer]

Only one? I will give you 2:

 

1) The persons that need a X-server LFG tool to assemble a team. That's the 1st reasson.

 

They are incapable of taking the initiative, are shy to interact and usually need the anonymity of the mass to hide their rude manners that makes for them even harder to get into a group... They also aren't patient enough to wait... They need everything now, which makes them an even worse company because they do not learn and do not let others learn.

 

As a person that likes to play in teams, obviously, I want to spot disruptive ppl ASAP to improve my online experience by avoiding them like the plague... A X-server LFG tool is basically a big anonymizer some ppl use to go around causing havoc and spoiling the fun on others.

 

 

2) The fact that ANY auto assembled group needs to finish whatever task makes the content accessible through an auto function trivial. The 2nd reasson.

 

As groups are not human made, when a human made group goes to the same content, ofc, it finds it orders of magnitude easier because players look for specific advantages...

 

...As the average LFG supporter is not patient enough to assemble a manual team he becomes jealous at the progress speed of ppl that tailors their groups to the content, because, ofc takes "forever" to finish "hard" content... Whine and complains follow that makes the Devs nerf the content to the minimum possible, which is that of a totally disorganized group can go at full speed over it.

 

 

So we can discuss all day long... I just need to point every supporter to any game with an automatic X-server LFD to see how the 2 above effects happen...

 

...The issue?

 

There are players that care about good playing environment and challenging content...

 

...And players that want the loot doesn't matter what.

 

 

EDIT: I hope you understand that I'm giving 1 reasson for each of the Traits the common term "LFG tool" usually includes. Automatic & Cross-server.

Edited February 12, 2012 by ragamer

[Uruare]

Only one? I will give you 2:

 

1) The persons that need a LFG tool to assemble a team. That's the 1st reasson.

 

They are incapable of taking the initiative, are shy to interact and usually need the anonymity of the mass to hide their rude manners that makes for them even harder to get into a group... They also aren't patient enough to wait... They need everything now, which makes them an even worse company because they do not learn and do not let others learn.

 

Well, you've got us all pegged. Roll it up folks, the expertologist has spoken.

 

 

 

2) The fact that ANY auto assembled group needs to finish whatever task makes the content accessible through an auto function trivial.

 

As groups are not human made, when a human made group goes to the same content, ofc, it finds it orders of magnitude easier because players look for specific advantages...

 

...As the average LFG supporter is not patient enough to assemble a manual team he becomes jealous at the progress speed of ppl that tailors their groups to the content, because, ofc takes "forever" to finish "hard" content... Whine and complains follow that makes the Devs nerf the content to the minimum possible, which is that of a totally disorganized group can go at full speed over it.

 

Behold, the power of imagination! Cancel all college and university classes at once, folks; all the facts we need we can just make up with total authority.

 

Brilliant!

 

 

So we can discuss all day long... I just need to point every supporter to any game with an automatic LFD to see how the 2 above effects happen...

 

...The issue?

 

There are players that care about good playing environment and challenging content...

 

...And players that want the loot doesn't matter what.

 

 

You don't say? It's really that simple, is it?